Respecting People: A Rant

I never heard the terms Orthoprax before, though I know what it means. I think we should not be quick to negatively judge such people, because even if they do not “feel” their Yiddishket,at least they are practicing it outwardly – which shows that they would be embarrassed NOT to. I am of the school that says “m’toch shelo lishma, ba lishma.” The trick is to get the Orthoprax Jew to FEEL, so that he is no longer just going through the motions.

Because a child that went off the derech and left behind frum parents and siblings, frum friends and went off the derech not because he “went to” a better life but because he or she was running away from something hurtful and painful will not argue with you that the life they are now leading is “better”. They are not going to argue with you at all.

Mr. aries, OTD’s argue ALL the time. Please, while there are those that do want to come back they who won’t argue. those who don’t want to return to Yiddishkeit will repeatedly say how happy they are with their current lifestyle, that’s it’s much better and they’ll continuously argue about Yiddishkeit even if their arguments make no sense.

They might not argue with you because you respect them and accept them the way they are, with their current actions so why would they even argue with you?

Philosopher, I didn’t say nor need I say that everyone of the kids I know came back. Nachas is not tied up in only returning to Yiddishkeit. Nachas is also tied up in becoming healthy, clean and sober. Nachas is tied up in knowing a child is alive and well and I am no longer waiting for a death call and I am no longer on a suicide watch.

I’m very happy that your nachas is that these OTD’s are clean and sober but what about nachas to the Aibishter? He gave us the Torah and COMMANDED us to keep it. He warned us not to forsake it. Klal Yisroel is married to the Torah and when we forsaken it we have forsaken our bride. We have broken our bond with the Aibishter.

Hashem has billions of non-Jews that when they are clean and sober and lead decent lives give him nachas. But not us Jews. We Jews, even if we are clean and sober and have good careers and whatever else one need to be a good citizen of the world, it is not enough. Hashem DEMANDS of us that we heed the Torah. It is certainly not a nachas for Him that there are children of His that violate the laws of Sahbbos and eat tarfos r”l.

And yes my Nachas is also tied up in those who have returned, married, had kids, went to E”Y, back to yeshiva, etc. All sorts of nachas, b”h.

This indeed should be you’re nachas, if you were the shaliach in that happening.

As far as Judging is concerned you don’t need to use the word in order to judge. Your whole speech is judgment itself.

Let’s anylyze this.

If I say

Rechy is going to the mall.

In that context going means walking, driving, physically getting there.

But if one says Rechy is going bananas then that means she is mentaly becoming wacky.

So the same word going means can imply two different things depending on the context that you use them.

The words, judging and respecting and disrepecting is the same thing (as are basically all words) which take on a different meaning in the contexct that you use them.

If I say that I disrespect OTD’s – it means I disrepect them for their choices in life.

It doesn’t mean I act in a disrespectful or demeaning manner to them.

When I say I don’t respect my baby as of yet, it doesn’t mean I don’t respect him a human being, as a Jew, as my own flesh and blood. What I meant when I said that was that at this point in life, I he didn’t earn my respect through his actions.

Now judging is the same thing. As far as I know humans have the bechira, the ability to choose. If we want to excuse negative actions we can excuse the likes of Hitler y”s too. Do you think Hitler wasn’t a completely insane human being? I do. And I still know he is judged by HB”H for being the murderer that he was. So not to compare, but the point is that everyone has bechirah to choose right from wrong OTD’s included. Therefore, my opinion is that nobody can use excuses for going OTD or davka doing evil.

I have not judged OTD’s circumstances or decided if and what kind of heavenly retribution they will get. That is not my business.

But I am allowed to have an opinion whether bechira is THE cause of OTD or not. Now you can call that judging. That’s fine with me. We all judge each others by our speach and actions.

You can judge me as having a holier than thou attitude over OTD’s, which is true. Mitzvos make a person holy. You can judge me as conceited because I don’t agree with your viewpoints but I don’t feel that I am, I feel that I have a valid viewpoint which is different than yours.

I am judging you that you do not understand the significance of being a frum Jew. I’m judging you of downgrading the importance of not violating halachas even if you want to gefel those who might come back one day.

I have to go now, my baby woke up from his nap. Maybe I’ll continue my rebuttal to your post later (not that I think you’re wating for it with baited breath).

rt, what you are saying might be true, but I think it is just as dangerous to feel that one can downgrade the importance of Yiddishkeit and the chiuv of mitzvos and the ability to use our bechira, to try to get OTD’s back to the fold.

“They might not argue with you because you respect them and accept them the way they are, with their current actions so why would they even argue with you?”

Exactly! They argue with you for the sake of arguing. With me they talk truth and emes!

Exactly! They argue with you for the sake of arguing. With me they talk truth and emes!

Unfortunatley I am not so naive as to believe you. If you’re chillin’ out with them, all is fine. Otherwise, a lot of OTD’s (not all of them) are absolutely not interested in truth and emes. Were your claim to be true there would not be any OTD’s after they’ve gone through their teenage years and sorted all the issues out.

Trust in Hashem to work it out. It is not up to you to keep score on this

Hashem is the only one appropriate enough to judge. He does not put that responsibility in our incapable hands.

Antshuldigt, but you only see what you want to because I have repeatedly said that I’m not judging anything about them I’m just stating my opinion whether kids go off the derech because of bechira or not. In my last posts which I commented on rl’s post I did not mean the word judgement in the same context as you are.

Philosopher, wow, you really are a judgmental jew,” I am judging you that you do not understand the significance of being a frum Jew.” You would have to assume that I am NOT a frum jew to say that I do not understand the significance of being a frum jew and that is not only an asinine assumption it is quite false and inaccurate as is your entire propaganda.

I have never said or indicated that I thought you are not frum. One can be frum without realizing the greatness of Yiddishkeit. If I made a mistake with how I’ve really judged you, forgive me. But how can I judge you otherwise when you openly state “nachas is not tied up only in returning to Yiddishkeit” and the rest of what you stated in that paragraph? I don’t know , maybe we just have different opnions of what the word nachas means.

So if you spout how much you disdain what the OTD children are doing because it is against halacha then YOU yourself should refrain from breaking Hashem’s mitzvos and going against Halacha

And could you tell me exactly which halacha I’m breaking?

If you are talking about dan l’kaf zchus, I suggest you open a sefer and look through the halahcas.

Someone who openly and continuously sin one does not need to be dan l’kaf zchus.

I see you realize that I don’t disdain these OTD’s themselves as I have said I love them, but I don’t respect them because of their actions, but I am puzzled as to why you as a Jew who understands the significence of being a frum Jew would not disdain what OTD’s are doing, eating treifos and being mechalel Shabbos, but instead have nachas when they are only clean and sober.

philosopher- chas v’sholom that we should downgrade the importance (the absolute necessity) of kiyum haTorah! I’m just saying we have to look at it from their viewpoint to try to understand where they’re coming from.

chanoch l’naar al pi darko-we all experienced a process of chinuch; OTD’s when they are ready, must begin over in a sense.

Tzadik sheva yipol v’kam- Rav Hutner zt’l says that this does not mean simply to keep trying, rather to be a tzadik, you MUST fall in order to grow.

i hope for your sake and your children’s sake that all of your children will be clearheaded teenagers really.

I hope and pray this will be so, and I’ve also made a very big personal sacrifice for my children’s chinuch because of that, but ultimately “everything is in the hands of shomayim chutz yiras shemayim.”

because “nachas is not tied up only in returning to yiddishkeit” is a very very true statement.

If Yiddishkeit is of paramount importance to a Jew, then that is an absolutely abhorrent statement.

the first step an OTD kid makes to return is very often being clean, sober, or whatever else they were doing that isn’t what a Jew should be doing. and the only way that that will become ‘the first step’ is if those close to him show him that he’s giving them NACHAS, even if it’s not necessarily the most yiddishe nachas you can think of.

WE must remember that in all steps that we take we need not gefel for human beings, we need to gefel for the Aibishter and if for the Aibishter it’s not a nachas for that a Jew is sinning, and the Aibishter explicitly says so numerous times in the Torah and we are in golus because of sins, it should not nachas for us either. If an OTD kid or adult for that matter is on the road to teshuva and step one is becoming clean and sober, then there is indeed much nachas in that. But when that’s where it ends and an OTD goes on to lead an OTD life then there is no nachas for Hashem and neither should there be for God fearing Jews, until the OTD is on the real path to teshuva.

popa: Consider the possibility (if not likelihood) that her parents were correct.

Max well:

Many OTD kids are due to parents who are unloving, too demanding and the like. There’s a concept in Mishlei from Shlomo Hamelech Chanoch Lanaar al Pi darko. If you have a sensitive kid and you constantly put him/her down and speak to him/her negatively its a virtual guarantee that the child will have very low self esteem and will have issues with religion and likely go OTD or tread very close. Parents don’t OWN their kids. Their children are a matanah from Hashem or rather a Pikadon. If you mistreat your kid there will be hell to pay no pun intended. You as a parent are responsible if the kid goes off the derech and all his averos will be on your cheshbon.

One’s upbringing is able to have very negative and lasting results on one’s psyche.To simply state that people in these situations should “snap out of it”, “deal with it”, or whatever, is not realistic.

I definitely agree with you on that and never said otherwise. Kids and teens who have been abused can be angry and confused, scarred and wounded and I never said otherwise.

Don’t you agree that at the very least she is LESS responsible than other people?

I’m not God and don’t have to agree or disagree, God is the Judge.

And if she is less responsible, could it not be feasible that she is fulfilling her responsibilities in a better manner than some people who you deem to be doing the right things?

Hashem has explicitly said that we cannot sin and there will be repercussions if we do. Some have unfortunetly forgotton that we are in golus and why we are in golus.

Those who struggle in trying to define Yiddishkeit for themselves, they don’t respect their teachers and parents but still want to do the right thing they keep Shabbos and basic halachos, yes they deserve a lot of respect.

But those who have cast off every vestige of Yiddishkeit, trample on the very basic of halachas, how in the world can one say they are fulfilling their responsibilies?

You as a parent are responsible if the kid goes off the derech and all his averos will be on your cheshbon.

After the bar mitzvah age, a child is responsible for their own actions. The parents will not have to give din v’cheshbon for the child.

If a parent abused or mistreated a child, they will give din v’cheshbon for that.

i did not talk about respecting the sin

Some people have talked about respecting others choice even if they are sinning or nachas even if they are not frum.

i talked about showing the kid acceptance even if he hasn’t made a spiritual step yet.

love and acceptence makes in a thousand times easier for a kid to come back, and even just to make that first step.

Love is very important – an OTD should never feel shunned. About acceptance – I agree they need to feel accepted as people, but not their sinful actions.

A frum Jew cannot respect and accept sinful actions.

And as I said before, not respecting sinful choices of OTD’s does not mean we can act in a disrespectful or demeaning fashion with them. We need to act respectfuly and not reverently as some are wont to do, as we do with every Jew.

But we should not and could not respect or accept any sinful choices that they make.

Let’s not sugarcoat it. It doesn’t help anyone, most certainly not an OTD person. A teen who goes OTD will roast like a toast in gehenim. Are there mitigating factors? Perhaps. But not excuses. Will someone else who pushed him have hell to pay also? Very possibly. But that won’t necessarily save the teen from the fire.

When you sugarcoat this, you essentially kasher going OTD.

Incorrect The Wolf. Offering excuses, and sugarcoating the truth in fact is what makes OTD people think its okay being OTD, and discourages their return to sanity.

It very well may put the fear of G-d back in them.

Sorry Wolf, my succesful Kiruv work must continue. You of course are free to choose your own course. Its called bechira.

I doubt _you_ have much success with that dismissal attitude of the Emes.

Baruch Hashem I have a lot to write home about in this inyan.

You’re sugarcoating that gehenim doesn’t apply. With that attitude, not only is it inferior and untrue, it is no true kiruv.

The Emes is always the most sucessful tool in Kiruv. I can say as much with much successful experience.

oomis, we are not breathing fiery kanuas, however as Yanky R. said we cannot sugarcoat the truth.

We don’t need to put on a angry demeanor when interacting with OTD, they do need to feel loved, but they also need to know that they CANNOT be respected until they have EARNED respect.

Would anyone respect a frum person who is rude to others? Well why not, they can’t control themselves. Who said only OTD can’t control themselves? Doesn’t anybody think that frum people don’t have challenges as well? So let’s respect those frum people who abuse others, or behave in any other form of indecent behavour and we should be excused as well. In fact all of humanity should be excused for any sinful behavour.

After all, we are all genetically predisposed to certain things, we have all been influenced by out surroundings. I don’t think it’s fair that only the OTD’s get that privilege.

Let’s give this privilege of excuses to all of humanity as well.

As the liberals do.

Wolf, I will not apologize for my highly succesful Kiruv Richokim avodah. The Emes always prevails. Hiding from it is no mehalach.

My beloved brothers who have returned (or joined for the first time) Avodas Hashem Yisborach, have built up taira Yiddishe Mishpochos for doros. The only thing knocked down is their former aveiras. The Ahavas Yisroel instilled in them is truly remarkable. They indeed are an encouragement for future returnees.

Yanky -While I don’t agree with your approach, if it’s working why not? But I do believe the others on this post, do nothing to mekarev rechokim and use the attidude of “let them come to me”, as an excuse.

“But I do believe the others on this post, do nothing to mekarev rechokim and use the attidude of “let them come to me”, as an excuse.”

Where do you get that idea? That’s a rather broad statement of assumption, with no facts in evidence to back it up. Do you personally know each and every one of the CR posters?

Oomis -Because not one poster except for Aries have said what they do to Mekarev rechokim.

I’m not sure how you define respect or what respect you are actually talking of however one thing is clear, any Jew even an OTD Jew needs to be treated respectfully. You may not disrespect, make a disapproving face, embarass, talk down to, hurt or even THINK badly about another Jew. If you feel like interacting, you give a smile and say hello and treat them like anyone else. You can disapprove of what they do but you can’t and are not allowed to judge them they sense it right away and all you have done is push them away.

It could be from all my posts on this subject on this and another thread you might have missed something that I wrote a few times about acting in a respectful manner to OTD’s.

Here’s just one example I wrote in one before my last post:

“And as I said before, not respecting sinful choices of OTD’s does not mean we can act in a disrespectful or demeaning fashion with them. We need to act respectfuly and not reverently as some are wont to do, as we do with every Jew”

Philosopher,

Might I suggest that someone who did not receive enough respect growing up may need an extra dose of respect to balance them out until they find their way back? When a person isnt respected, they tend to not respect themselves which leads to all kinds of problems. The way to help and heal such a person is to show them lots of respect. There are many stories of Rabbeim who had students who werent doing to well and every time the kid asked a question in the learning the Rebbi acted as though it was a great question. He gave the kid extra respect and kavod and eventually the kid went on to excel in his learning.