Respecting People: A Rant

Hear, hear (applause, applause:::)

i would tend to agree with wellinformedyid on this. i would like to add that it’s important to hate the action so that we’re careful ourselves with it. it’s very hard to be ‘accepting’ as the world understands it and still keep our own standards as high as they belong.

Popa: Your post epitomizes “Chessed v’emes nifgoshu.”

In that z’chus, “Gam Hashem yitain hatov” (Psalms, 85).

Nevertheless, I think we can and should respect people and the way they live, even if they do not live in accordance with halacha.

Popa, I find myself in strong agreement. Its vital to love the person and hate the action. All too often we end up hating the person because of the bad action. It requires work to train ourself that when we see someone do something wrong to not brand the person.

Wellinformedyid, Popa was talking about respecting the way they live even if they do not live in accordance with the halacha. This is not the same as Its vital to love the person and hate the action.

There is nothing to respect about a willful repeated unrepentant Torah violator.

I totaly agree.

philosopher:

Unless someone has learned through Shulchon Aruch numerous times it is very likely they are doing many things wrong. So what should we do? Disrespect basically everybody? We all do things that are wrong I would say except for some rare very well learned Rabbanim we all are over on different aspects of Halacha daily if not daily then quite often and I think almost everyone is working on himself and is likely better today than he was a year ago. In most cases we have to respect our friends and neighbors and accept them as they are. Its not our job to go around judging people in fact its not our place and the way we judge others is how we will be judged by Hashem so thats a big incentive to not even judge others Bichlal. I would think there are very rare occasions when it is permitted to disrespect someone.

The bottom line is you dont know the circumstances so who are you to judge? Everyone has a Yetzer Hora and its their job to deal with it. Theres a difference between disrespecting someone and disagreeing with their conduct. One should know for himself that what so and so is doing is wrong and assur and should tell his children not to act in a certain way but keep in mind, theres an obligation to love our fellow Jew and treat others with respect.

First of all, what is the opposite of respect? Disrespect. So therefore when I say that we cannot respect people who violate halacha openly, willfuly and constantly, I am not saying that I hate them.

Disrespecting people’s sinful actions does not mean that I hate them. On the contrary I pity the spiritual and oftentimes physical decline of people who shed every vestige of Yiddishkeit.

Every human, even the biggiest tzaddikim made mistakes, so kol shekein us little people, we all make mistakes in our lives. Yes we all have failings and we all sometimes sin, but in general we try to be good Jews.But there is a vast difference between people who are frum and those who are not interested in any connection to Yiddishkeit and purposefully do aveiros.

Immorality and genievah by the goyim anger Hashem. Why do you think he made the mabul? Did Hashem not turn over Sedom because of their sins? Was the Beis Hamikdosh not destroyed because of our sins? Sin is a major, major issue not just something that “oh, yeah we can’t judge these people, let’s respect their choices anyway.”

The reason why there this cavalier attitude to those who violate halacha is because we don’t realize the immense responsibility that a Jew who was born into a frum (yes, maybe sometimes frum krum, but still frum) environment, he/she was given the knowledge that there’s a God who created us, that there are obligations of mitzvos to keep, that we are souls not just gufim, that life is not a free for all, that we MUST live our lives according to halacha, this is not soemthing one can throw away because they were abused, or think of their parents/teachers as hypocrites or whatever other excuse they have.

Just as Hashem gave into each human to know the difference of right and wrong, immorality, stealing, murdering, a person instinctively knows that this is wrong, every Jew who turns away from Yiddishkeit knows that this is wrong. They just silence their inner voice with a barrage of excuses.

I may pity these OTD people, I may love them as they have a Jewish soul and the potential for teshuva, but I certainly DO NOT RESPECT THEM.

“every Jew who turns away from Yiddishkeit knows that this is wrong”

Philosopher,

I completely disagree. One of the reasons many kids go off is because there is NO ONE whom they know who can answer their hashkafa questions. When they ask in school, they are told they are apikorsim. When they see no one is there with answers, well then, what’s the difference between blindly believing Judiasm, and blindly believing Christianity? Kids are not born with the answers to everything. When they have questions, they have to be taught the beauty of Torah.

I meant to right that there were others like me who asked and weren’t given answers…

But philosopher, just because you were able to keep going and searching for the truth, doesn’t mean everyone else can. Everyone is created with different personalities and strengths. Not everyone can go through what you did and continue to search and ask. Why can’t you understand that just because you were BH able to continue and search, not all people can do that? It doesn’t mean they are any less of a person. Some people cannot look past that hurt and hypocrisy, especially during the vulnerable teenager years. Some need to go through being not religious and taking years to search for the truth before they are able to come back. Some may never come back. But I don’t think it’s a failure on their part; I think it’s a failure on the part of those who should’ve been there for them and weren’t.

I guess I just view it differently from you. BH, you were able to get past the responses you got when you asked, but I don’t disrespect those who weren’t able to. Every one of us was created with different strengths and weakness, and Hshm gives each person their own struggles in life. Who am I to judge how I would have been had I been in that person’s shoes? I am no tzaddekes to know if I would have overcome that test had I been that person. I think those who are OTD are turned off even more when they see religious Jews disrespecting them. What they need is love and caring, not disrespect and a holier-than-thou attitude from us.

the.nurse, are you saying that people do not have bechira, we are just preprogrammed robots?

Can you explain then of what purpose did Hashem put us on Earth for and why did He give us challenges if we are not able to overcome them?

Of course people have bechirah. If the person who went OTD did so as an adult, it might be a different story. However, a lot of times with people who go OTD, the process starts when they are very young -early to mid teenage years. There’s a reason why they are called teenagers and not adults. There’s a reason we don’t marry off our kids when they are 13 and 14 years old. People are usually not mature enough at that age! For the same reason, kids sometimes cannot handle what is put in front of them at that stage in life. They don’t have years of life and decision making to look back on and take them through their troubles.

I can’t answer WHY Hshm gave them those challenges if ultimately they did not pass them. Maybe they weren’t meant to pass them. I don’t know. The whole concept of bechirah is so complicated and there’s much I don’t understand about it. I can only look at the parts of life that I (think I) understand and go from there.

“poppa if more people thought the way you do, the world would be a better place”

We would not have had the fiasco in Emmanuel either.

However, a lot of times with people who go OTD, the process starts when they are very young -early to mid teenage years. There’s a reason why they are called teenagers and not adults. There’s a reason we don’t marry off our kids when they are 13 and 14 years old. People are usually not mature enough at that age!

The Torah says that a girl of twelve and a boy of thriteen years old are responsible for their actions and it’s very interesting but it’s true that the process of OTD starts for some at early to mid teenage years- right around the time where people start being responsible for their actions! I find it amazing.

I’m not saying that one can’t change. I keep on saying that teshuva can be done as long as one lives, however that does not negate the fact that the choosing to go OTD is one’s choice.

Being mature or not does not take away the fact that one can choose to do good or bad. And although the process might start at 13 most who really go off the derech are at least age 16 and up.

1. ALL those who started out at 12-13 doing bad stuff did not end up doing it at 18.

Don’t start with “well they got help, etc.” Very nice but a lot of kids got help and it didn’t matter not one bit.

2. Teenage years, while being a turbulent time for some because they are trying to find their identity is not an excuse for going OTD. Trying to find oneself is a seperate issue from chutzpah, ingratitude- es kimt zich mir attitude, and hurting loved ones with their actions – this is something a good number of OTD’s carry over from their teenage years to adults and they don’t change.

3. Years ago people did marry in their teens proof that bechira has nothing to do with if one is married or not. Our generation marries later than previous ones because we, especially the women, expect more from marriage then years ago where they just paired together two individuals that the parents approved and that was that.

4. There are immature kids that don’t go OTD

I can’t answer WHY Hshm gave them those challenges if ultimately they did not pass them. Maybe they weren’t meant to pass them. I don’t know.

Aha. So just that those who sin could feel good about themselves, we aren’t meant to overcome our tests in life. In other words, if all is easy and keeping Yiddishkeit is a breeze, then great let’s do it. But if it’s a challenge then we aren’t davka meant to pass them. Maybe yes, maybe no, but those who went off the derech probably weren’t meant to pass them as their challenges were extremely diffucult to handle.

Yes that’s where our cavalier attitude to sin and our acceptance of others choices to violate halacha leads us.

“Aha. So just that those who sin could feel good about themselves, we aren’t meant to overcome our tests in life. In other words, if all is easy and keeping Yiddishkeit is a breeze, then great let’s do it. But if it’s a challenge then we aren’t davka meant to pass them.”

I hope you don’t really believe that that’s what I meant when I wrote my post. I’m simply saying that I personally am not in a position to judge others. I am also saying that I and you and everyone else here do not know the reason Hshm does things.

According to you, if you’re supposed to pass all tests in life and you fail some, what does that mean? That you are going against Hshms plans? That He didn’t know you would not pass it? That you’re banned forever? Can never get back on the right track?

Hshm is always giving us nisyonos; just because you fail one doesn’t mean you won’t pass one in the future. This is not to say that you shouldn’t make every conceivable effort to pass the challenges you are given in life. But we are not perfect. We make mistakes. We do wrong. Hshm never says that if you sin, He doesn’t love you. He will give you more opportunities and challenges in your life so that you can try to overcome those.

But how can we judge others who didn’t overcome their challenges? Does it make me a better person, because I didn’t go OTD but maybe I spoke loshon harah the other day? Who can judge whos sin is worse?

According to you, if you’re supposed to pass all tests in life and you fail some, what does that mean? That you are going against Hshms plans? That He didn’t know you would not pass it?

That you’re banned forever? Can never get back on the right track?

Not passing some tests in life does not mean outright casting off of Yiddishkeit. This is not all or nothing. It is trying to be the best we can against nothing.

That you’re banned forever? Can never get back on the right track?

I’ve mentioned teshuva many times in my previous posts.

But how can we judge others who didn’t overcome their challenges?

I’m not judging anybody in general. I keep on reiterating that we are all human. I’m commenting here about OTD’s.

Does it make me a better person, because I didn’t go OTD but maybe I spoke loshon harah the other day? Who can judge whos sin is worse?

It’s a problem if OTD’s who are violating all halachos are held in the same category as those who are basically frum and try to do Hashem’s will, but are still human.

love- feel affection for, adore

respect- admire, revere

While I the love for my baby is boundless, I don’t respect her as of now. With Hashem’s help I hope she will grow to be a person whom I can respect.

I think this relationship of love and no respect (as of now) is apt to apply with OTD’s.

Be happy -You are correct to some degree. There definitely are overprotective parents who find no fault with whatever their kids do. This type of upbringing usually brings to spolied rotten adults, not usually OTD. Then there is the opposite extreme- they always find fault with their children even when the Rebbe/teacher are totally wrong. This type of behavior can most often bring to rebellion and OTD. The way a person in life has to be- is in the middle, like the Rambam says!

I see.

Great I’m happy that you see.

I have worked with the “at risk” population for many years and have had much nachos from all the children I have been connected to.

So let me begin with this. NO ONE but HASHEM has the right to “JUDGE” anyone. HASHEM is the one that gives each of us nisyonos for his own reasons and he is the one who judges whether we pass them or not. NO ONE knows why he does this or why he chooses to whom to give which nisyonos.

It is OUR job to be oved Hashem and in doing so or better yet “choosing” to do so, we must learn to love AND respect HIS children. ALL of them, every age, every size and in whatever condition they are. We might not respect the choices Hashem’s children choose to make. WE have to trust in Hashem and understand that the choices that these children and/or adults make today may not be (with Hahsem’s help and the help of others) the choices they make tomorrow or further on down the line. A lot of the choices they make may have a lot to do with the respect and love each and everyone of us give to them as WE pass through THEIR lives.

Do you understand? By judging them and putting them down we turn them off and push them further and deeper into their black hole and dark journey. By judging them we give them more fodder and more righteous indignation for doing what they have chosen to do. By showing them why WE are right and they are WRONG we are showing them how pretentious WE are instead of showing them our enormous bitachon and emunah in Hashem that HE will work out his relationship with them and bring them back.

On the other hand by trying to understand their pain and frustration; by sharing their pain and helping to diminish it; by showing care, concern and compassion, WE demonstrate the true meaning and beauty of yiddishkeit and what it means to be a true Jew, an ohev shalom, an ohev Yisroel, a ben adom l’chaveiro, the true meaning of yiras shamayim. By showing another Jew that WE are not going anywhere, that we love them and we are here for them and will always will be here for them with open arms and open doors because we know that Hashem will help them heal the pain they are experiencing and they will heal the relationship that seems to be on the rocks right now either between them and Hashem or them and the frum community or the religion itself. We also realize that they did not go off the derech overnight it wasn’t an easy decision to turn their backs on what was once the only life they knew, what was as equal to them as eating, sleeping and breathing and they will not return overnight in one fell swoop. It will take time, and it is a process that is different for different individuals, step by step.

So please stop judging who goes off the derech for which reasons and why they “choose” to do so. Kids that go off the derech don’t always “choose” to do so. They are sometimes pushed and shoved by family situations or situations in Yeshiva. They don’t have enough self-esteem and/or self-confidence to overcome the pain and frustration foisted upon them and they don’t know where to turn and who to turn too. When that pain explodes they don’t know who to blame. They blame Hashem, they blame Yiddishkeit, they blame ALL of us. If it is a yeshiva issue then parents should understand that whatever they do, they are not doing it to hurt you. It has nothing to do with you and you need to work on separating your own pain from your child’s pain. And as we all know it happens to kids from all walks of life. MO, Chareid, wealthy, poor, plain families, Yeshivish families, Rebbe’s children, banker’s children, baker’s children. Hashem tests everyone. Yes even mechanchim’s children.

popa, you do exactly what you did w/o the stars or whatever thet’re called. text

One must earn respect, it is not a right. Going OTD may earn one the respect of the street, but not of respectable Torah abiding citizens.

I have worked with the “at risk” population for many years and have had much nachos from all the children I have been connected to.

I’m sure. If you respect each and every one of them regardless of their actions then of course you will have much nachas from each and every one of them.

If you mean to say that they all become frum in the end, I am very skeptical when you talk like that . I know for a fact that some people do not want to change to the good no matter how much help they’ve recieved or acceptence they got.

So let me begin with this. NO ONE but HASHEM has the right to “JUDGE” anyone

As far as I know I have not used the term “judging” OTD. I have shared my opinion of why I feel these kids went off the derech. I’m not judging them as to how big their nisoyan was, what there nisoyan was, what their problems were or whatever else is involved in judging. I am stating a perfectly rational opinion that the Torah talks about – the bechira of each human to choose his spiritual path. And I have repeatedly said one can change any time.

The rest of your post always works in theory. But everyone is different it might work for some, while for others the acceptance of how they live their lives OTD makes them complacent and unchanging. If it were that simple as you make it seem, I guarantee you we would not countless Jews leaving Yiddishkeit throughout the hundreds of years that we are in gulos and beforehand too.

Again as far as I know, I have not said that I’m judging OTD’s. If I have used that term I made a mistake. Only Hashem can judge others. I definitely agree with you on that.

However, again, my opinion is that each of us have bechira, each of us can choose his spiritual path, as Hashem says “I am putting in front of you life or death. Choose life.”

And again I’m not saying that whatever one is at 18 they cannot change. I have repeatedly said we can any spiritual path as long as we are alive.

Just as one has the bechira to choose the wrong path, bechira can be used to change course. Bechira is not just there when we choose to do good as some of you are implying.

Therefore, I do not believe in excuses for choosing the wrong path. It doesn’t mean I’m judging anybody. I just believe in bechira and don’t believe that Hashem would give nisyones to others without giving them the power to overcome it. I think this is the basis of Yiddishkiet.

Philosopher, I didn’t say nor need I say that everyone of the kids I know came back. Nachas is not tied up in only returning to Yiddishkeit. Nachas is also tied up in becoming healthy, clean and sober. Nachas is tied up in knowing a child is alive and well and I am no longer waiting for a death call and I am no longer on a suicide watch. And yes my Nachas is also tied up in those who have returned, married, had kids, went to E”Y, back to yeshiva, etc. All sorts of nachas, b”h.

As far as Judging is concerned you don’t need to use the word in order to judge. Your whole speech is judgment itself. You haven’t walked in anyone’s shoes but your own, so you only know your own issues and how you handled them and the choices that you yourself made. Kudos to you and the way you handled yours. That doesn’t mean that others can or have to handle their nisyonos in the same fashion. Everyone’s variables are different. So when you say, that everyone has an opportunity to change “but”…. that is judging.

Yes everyone has an opportunity to change and come back and make different choices for themselves. So maybe tomorrow 10 more kids will turn around, and maybe next week there will be more, and unfortunately maybe tomorrow another 10 will be turned off the derech. Hashem is in charge and he runs the world. We are only here to help him. SO what CAN we do to help. We smile, we say good day, we give a handshake. We offer up a sandwich or a Shabbos meal. We try to listen to understand. We lead and guide by example. We love unconditionally for no other reason than that child is Hashem’s child, a Jewish child who deserves to be loved. He doesn’t need to earn it. I respect him or her not because she has to earn my respect but because RESPECT is a given. Hashem commanded me to respect ALL he created including human beings and therefore I respect them. AND when I show respect and give respect I teach others to do the same and so they respect me and show me respect in return. I don’t demand respect, i gain respect and I expect to be respected as I respect others.

WIY, there certainly is a percentage of people looking to excuse breaking halacha. But primarily, the people I know who went OTD did so because they didn’t find the evidence sufficient to believe.

You are also neglecting the Orthopraxz movement where people stay outwardly religious because they have too much to lose (wife, family etc).

I think people like to say things like “OTD just want to fulfill taivos” but for a large percentage that just isn’t true. I think it makes us feel better because it removes doubt that the people who no longer believe (as opposed to those looking for excuses) are correct. I think its an insecurity thing.