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DY: In response to your first point, you are working within a system in which your conclusion fuels your proof. Yes, being right is most important when it comes to following the Torah. But if you can’t prove that your way of following the Torah is correct (or, as is the case here, that someone else’s is wrong), how do you know that the other person is wrong? It would seem to me that baselessly denouncing other Jews’ practices as unacceptable is a violation of Lashon Hara, Sinas Chinam, Ahavas Reiacha, and probably others.
To the second point: Off the top of my head, peanut oil as Kitniyos, R’ Akiva Eiger on how to give a Get, the different Kinyanim by Mechiras Chametz, Davening Nusach Sefard, the Mesader Kiddushin not drinking the wine under the Chuppah. It happens all the time. That’s an integral part of the Halachic process- that the Poskim continue learning and can be Mechadesh against what the accepted Dinim are. They just have to be really sure of themselves for a major Chiddush.
In response to your second point, those are not horseradish, on which we have a mesorah, so we work backwards, as the Gemara did with the identification of Pri Eitz Hadar as an esrog.
Which brings us back to your first point; when there’s a legitimate mesorah on a mehalach in Yiddishkeit, no amount of debating it will make it wrong, and when there us a mesorah to reject an approach, no amount of debating will make it right.
There’s another important point as well; not everything is subject to logical debate. If I observe that a particular approach simply doesn’t work, or is not grounded in sincerity, it may not be provable on paper, but is no less true.
Let me take the women wearing tefillin issue, on which we agree, as an example. I think I’ve demonstrated that according to classic halachic sources and approach, it is assur.
But Rabbi Schachter took it a step further, and said that it is unacceptable for “meta-halachic” reasons. So the logical, halachic debate doesn’t really need to begin. And, at least according to my reading of Rabbi Twerski’s piece, we also take into account the motivation of those involved in the innovation (even while judging favorably the motivations of the SAR students).
OURtorah:
You make some very valid points about how one may not judge or hate a fellow Jew. But please realize that criticizing somebody’s actions, lifestyle, and even their beliefs fall into neither of the above categories. In Judaism we believe in loving all Jews, but we also believe in standing up and declaring what is right and what is wrong. Bais Hillel, Bais Shammai, and the rest of the Tannaim and Amoraim certainly did not hate each other; but they did spend the vast majority of their time and effort vehemently arguing with each other about what is muttar and what is assur, what is right and what is wrong. One does not have to take away from the other.
DaMoshe:
“Modern Orthodox people don’t tell people to be less machmir.”
Al regel achas:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/gebrokts-on-pesach#post-517222
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/gebrokts-on-pesach#post-517935
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/gebrokts-on-pesach/page/2#post-518043
“If someone wants to accept a chumrah, go ahead. Just don’t try to impose it on others, and don’t look down on others who don’t keep that chumrah!”
It is absolutely true that one should not look down on others who are not holding where he is in avodas Hashem. But one should look up to those who are on a plane of avodas Hashem that is more elevated than that which is demanded by the Halacha. Going lifnim mi’shuras ha’din should not be regarded as compulsory, but it should be praised and celebrated.
DY: I disagree with your assertion that there is a Mesorah on horseradish. An Esrog was a Peirush Hamekubal MiSinai. If the Mesorah on horseradish goes back to Chazal, then that would be enough. But it doesn’t. It goes back to 17th-century Lithuania/Russia (maybe a century or two earlier).
And R’ Schachter doesn’t say that the issue is a meta-Halachic concern. That’s his exact point. There’s an issue that people think is meta-Halachic (Apikorsus) but is actually an important Halachic consideration. Acting like alternative branches of Judaism is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. So, once the Conservatives have done something, so long as there is a Shemetz of a Halachic issue with it it becomes Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.
mw13- I really appreicate your insight. That was my second thoguht. What I was trying to say though, is the first step is learing to love one another. The only way we can be like Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai is first love each other. there is no discussion when both sides are so close minded all they will do is yell and point fingers. Do you know what I’m saying?
But I definitly agree with you. I wish we could “fight” it out and wrestle out the material of the torah, but in the proper ways
It goes back to 17th-century Lithuania/Russia (maybe a century or two earlier).
It goes back as far as we (collectively) remember.
And R’ Schachter doesn’t say that the issue is a meta-Halachic concern.
I suppose that depends on how to define “meta-halachic”, but my point is that it is a matter which requires judgment which is beyond the typical debate you’ll find in a beis medrash. I agree that the judgment of morei hora’ah is part of the actual halachic process, it’s just hard to qualify precisely, as it is to determine which morei hora’ah are qualified to make such judgments.
Regarding horseradish:
I think one has to carefully differentiate between an actual mesorah to do something (or not to do something) and something which may have been done “unwillingly” or something that was done without any halachic significance. For instance if in Europe they bathed on during the day (let’s say because it was cold at night), I think we can all agree that this hardly constitutes a mesorah to bathe during the day and not at night. So when we see that certain vegetables were used, we have to determine if they SPECIFICALLY used these vegetables or perhaps they simply didn’t have or couldn’t afford other vegetables. The result would be that perhaps horseradish is ok bedieved or even that it’s not ok at all. But simply responding “mesorah” might not address the issue.
This reminds me of Techeiles where people say that it’s against the mesorah. But there was never a mesorah to not wear Techeiles; it was just something that was unable to be done.
For as long as we know, we’ve been saying a brachah on it. To the best of my knowledge, that’s a mesorah.
It is not like the story of the rebbe who would cut his nails after going to the mikvah. One chassid begged the rebbe to tell him the sod.
The rebbe told the chassid that he will only reveal it to him after fasting for forty days.
After fasting for forty days, the chassid asked the rebbe for the sod. Answered the rebbe, “because then my nails are soft”.
But we should assume that we wouldn’t have anything but a true mesorah on marror with a brachah.
we eat horseradish because the gedolim eat horseradish. end of story.
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