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I was very bothered by the thread (now closed) about Modern Orthodox “minhagim”. The thread attacked Modern Orthodoxy as a whole because some people claim to be MO and do things wrong. I clarified there that MO does not endorse such behaviors! Yet the attacks keep on coming.
I had an urge to post a comparable thread, but I resisted it (mainly due to my thread here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/im-trying-to-make-a-change) A few months ago I would have posted it. I reiterate the call I made 2 months ago – instead of attacking, why can’t we try to respect other people? Do posters here really think that Modern Orthodoxy as a whole endorses married women not covering their hair or women wearing pants? I highly doubt it!
When I post now, I stop and think for a moment, asking myself, “Am I hoping to accomplish something positive with this?” If I think it will have a negative effect, I don’t post it. I wish others would do the same.
Let’s realize that there are always people who do things wrong and try to justify it. Just because they may call themselves by a certain label doesn’t mean they really represent that group.
Mods, I’d really like an explanation on why you even allowed the thread attacking MO to be posted at all. Did you think something positive would come of it? Or are you also eager to bash Modern Orthodox Jews?
I couldn’t tell you. I’m a yeshivish, modern orthodox jew with balabatish mehalchim and chasidish minhagim, who davens nissuch ashkenaz at a sefardi shul.
Who wrote that under my name?
I did – 29
So you obviously work for YWN or you are a mad hacker
Mad, yes. Hacker? Nah
DM-I COULDNT OF SAID IT BETTER MYSELF
ITS A GREAT TOPIC YOU BROUGHT UP. GOOD JOB
a quote from the OP of the thread, “Please just keep to the topic of giving a source.”
all the OP was trying to do was be melamed zchus and if people wud have just let things slide everything wud have have gone smoothly. But everyone feels its their obligation to wage war for peace.
I agree that we should respect each other. We are each on a different level of observance, some more lenient and some more strict. We can disagree but still respect each other
Hey Mad 29, reveal yourself…..or else!
Yes? You called?
Respect for people is wonderful and nobody said otherwise.
But this does not preclude pointing out that that the gedolim held that the ideology of MO was and is terribly wrong.
To be clear, the founder of MO was condemned by the gedolim of his time for MO (and, included in that, is Zionism, since you seem to prefer that I bring it up).
Further, a well-known MO posek gave a Nationalistic (i.e. Avoda Zara, as per Rav Elchonon, et al.) explanation for why “liChaOra” Zionists believe that liHalacha Jews may sacrifice their lives for the State of Israel (regardless of whether or not Jewish lives are saved). Rav Schwab sadly referred to people like this as “Talmid Chacham sheEin bo Deah” and, essentially, to hope that people like this will “return to their (Torah) senses”.
As well, in MO one finds the “hevel uRius ruach”, etc. (quoting Rav Shlomo Miller’s words) regarding the questionable Broyde piece.
To be sure, nobody is claiming that all MO agree with all of this. One hopes that at least some MO (of all levels) know better in these (and other) matters than MO’s founder, and some of their rabbis, including a rather well-known posek.
But it is indisputable that all this is genuine MO and, perhaps worse, that MO still won’t admit that it’s wrong.
There are more recent examples, etc. but the point is NOT to “bash” MO.
Decades ago, Rav Schwab asked MO to rejoin traditional orthodoxy but, sadly, it seems that MO feels they know better. Bizarrely, MO attempts to claim legitimacy from Rav Schwab’s very derech, TIDE, while Rav Schwab very clearly and publicly nixed this “possibility”.
DaMoshe:
Your contention that you “clarified there that MO does not endorse such behaviors”, is not at all clear.
Again, respect of the people is wonderful, but not of the ideology.
Let’s realize that there are always people who do things wrong and try to justify it.”
Let’s realize that there are always people who do things that may SEEM wrong to other people, who may hold by a different hashkafa and sometimes fail to recognize that the first person’s hashkafa might ALSO be valid, according to his poseik. Saying that someone is doing things “wrong,” (when it is entirely possible it is permissible under HALACHA), is why there is a lack of respect. And to be fair, it is often on BOTH sides.
BTW I identify as Modern Orthodox. I fully covered my hair after I married my husband, I do not wear pants, short skirts (and at my age that would look ridiculous anyhow, so B”H for Tznius), short sleeves, or clothing that intrinsically screams for attention. Do I do some things “wrong?” Probably, as do we all. And that is why I ask my local Rov how to do things the right way.
Who are you Mad 29?
Macklemore – It looks like you haven’t caught on yet. The Moderators check all posts to make sure they are Kosher V’Yosher and fit all the rules (See Coffee Room Homepage for full list). Each moderator has a number. Most times you see bold writing, it will be from a moderator. Mod 29 is the one who saw your post and gave you a subtitle [normally an honor, sometimes the opposite, on the CR].
Mod 29 is also called edited.
DaMoshe,
I was very bothered by the thread (now closed) about Modern Orthodox “minhagim”.
I was bothered by it as well.
I clarified there that MO does not endorse such behaviors! Yet the attacks keep on coming.
I don’t think all of the responses in the thread were as clear cut as yours in declaring the practices wrong; however I agree with you that a discussion of issues like this should be more nuanced in order to be respectful or respectable, because in reality the issues are nuanced. Imagine what a new BT who is slowly taking on Jewish practices, has starting keeping Shabbos and kosher, and has made improvements to her manner of dress, but hasn’t yet taken on covering hair or skirts, would feel reading the closed thread.
I had an urge to post a comparable thread, but I resisted it
I actually think that the mitzvah tantz thread is comparable. Unfortunately, Internet discussions seem to breed “us versus them” mentalities, where it’s difficult to debate issues without vitriol.
When I post now, I stop and think for a moment, asking myself, “Am I hoping to accomplish something positive with this?” If I think it will have a negative effect, I don’t post it.
Very nice.
HaKatan: disagreements are welcome and yes the amoraim and rishonim and achronim all used sharp language to point out where they thought the other was mistaken but in their heart of hearts they loved and respected each other.
the posts i enjoy reading the most on this forum are those i usually strongly disagree with but which are articulated in an intelligent, rational, unemotional and respectful way; see, e.g., akuperma.
I just want to point out that HaKatan just called out R’ Schachter for Avodah Zarah, mostly because he could not (refuses to?) understand what R’ Schachter actually said. I have explained in the past that the Shittah is entirely Torah and based in Halachic logic, not nationalism.
Avram:
I know your post was not directed to me, but I anyways would like to comment on it, specifically regarding Baalei Teshuva.
This intended audience of this site is, in my opinion, indicated in the site name.
Regardless, nobody is telling a Baalei Teshuva that they are “bad” if they are currently up to the “MO” stage. (It’s too bad that MO don’t realize that they could be, essentially, “in the same boat”.)
Everyone has struggles, no matter where they come from. But that doesn’t allow for claiming that an aveira is not any more an aveira, etc.
Again, this is about the ideology, not the people.
The Torah is above all else and is certainly not open to having foreign ideologies grafted on to it as does “MO”, “Religious Zionism” and others to create a new Torah (for which there is no mesorah) that they then try to pass off as authentic.
Hakatan
Chassidus is a New Ideology no matter what you might think. Thats the reason the Vilna Gaon put its adhernts into Cherem. The idea of telling stories of Gedolim and singing and dancing instead of learning was very controversial in its time.
hakatan: some argue that the chassidim “create a new Torah (for which there is no mesorah) that they then try to pass off as authentic.” For example, the well known practice to travel to umman is seen by some as avoideh zuru. some see the worship at the ohel as ???? ???? ????. Others claim that the wearing of black is copying the goyim. others claim the failure to recognize the mitzvah of kibbush eretz yisroel as a mumar leduvur echud. others see those that had the practice to continue to do meluchu on erev shabbos until long after shkia (because they held by rabbeinu tam) to be mechaleli shabbos befarhesyuh and dinum kegoyim.
personally, i dont think its a good idea to start spweing akipoires and avoiduh zuru whenever i see something i dont agree with at all. veamchu kulum kedoishin leoilam.
Sam2 (and besalel):
Out of respect for you, other MO members here, and Rabbi Schachter himself, I did not mention him by name. But since you insist…
No, it is Rav Elchonon, et al. who called Nationalism A”Z, not me.
You refuse to accept that I merely conveyed Rav Schwab’s written rebuttal to Rabbi Schachter’s shita in question, calling those like him “Talmid Chacham ShEin boDeah” in response to that shita. This is indisputable.
It is also quite logical that since “Religious Zionism” is, in Rav Elchonon’s words, Torah mixed with A”Z, and that MO are proud nationalists, then since Rav Schwab ruled out the Torah part, and the shita itself is very nationalist, then where else did it come from besides Nationalism which MO are proud of? You can’t have it both ways.
ZDad:
I am not getting involved in that one, but the common understanding of Chassidus as you portrayed it is clearly not what defines Chassidus.
oomis, i hold u in high regard but to say that noone does anything wrong is living in a fairytale.
You got no brains! Why are we starting to fight each other? It’s just what the big shots want to see that we’re street trash; street rats with no brains with no respect for nothin’ including ourselves! So here’s how it is: if we don’t act together, then we’re nothin’, if we don’t stick together, we’re nothin’, and if we can’t even trust each other, then we’re nothin’.
-Newsies
Hakatan: I most certainly would not call myself modern orthodox and would prefer not to be called orthodox either. I’d most prefer the label yid if a label must be issued.
Stop providing communal cover for it, and we’ll stop assuming that you condone it.
Would you make part of your religious community someone who drives on shabbos? No.
Someone who publicly steals? No.
Someone who publicly eats pork? No.
Someone who publicly molests children? No.
So why do you make part of your community someone who “eats dairy out”? (Assuming he doesn’t understand the issues like yitayningwut)
So why do you make part of your community someone who doesn’t cover their hair, or wears low cut necklines?
And it isn’t just about being more “live and let live”, because you certainly wouldn’t accept someone who did other issurim I mentioned. It is apparently about thinking these issurim are no big deal.
And that’s what you’re being called out on.
As a very wise man once said: We are only as strong as we are united, and as weak as we are divided. A. B. P. W. D.
Sorry, Damoshe, I think you must be using different terminology than I am, because there is no way in the world that you accept people who drive on shabbos into your community.
I’m not talking about inviting for a shabbos meal; chareidim do kiruv just as much if not more.
I’m talking about accepting them into your community and allowing the notion that they can be full members of the community without changing what they are doing.
You would never allow it for someone who drives on shabbos; why do you allow it for someone who texts on shabbos?
Would you make part of your religious community someone who drives on shabbos? No.
Someone who publicly steals? No.
Someone who publicly eats pork? No.
Someone who publicly molests children? No.
How about someone who cheats on their taxes?
How about somone who cheats the government for benefits?
You would never allow it for someone who drives on shabbos; why do you allow it for someone who texts on shabbos?
And you dont think there arent charedim who text on Shabbos.
zdad:
I agree with you that some chareidi communities should do more to distance themselves from those who would cheat on taxes. It should be a communal pariah. I’m willing to take that criticism.
Your example of chareidim texting on shabbos is misplaced though, since if it were known that someone did, he would certainly not be welcome as part of the community among those who knew.
besalel:
I did not mean to label you MO; I merely meant to direct you to my response, which is why I enclosed your name in parentheses.
Your assertion regarding wearing black is, in my understanding, completely wrong. Wearing black is not to copy the goyim but rather for humility, meaning to not “be flashy”.
Your assertion about “kibush haAretz” is astonishing. It is absolutely clear that we are not only not commanded to be kovesh the land while in galus, but that it is absolutely forbidden and under threat of dire consequences, as indicated in Kesubos. But, perhaps kol haPosel biMummo posel: if anyone really believes this (coming from Zionism, presumably), perhaps it is they who are “mumar liDavar echad”, or perhaps, as the Brisker Rav held, kol haTorah kula.
PBA: I think you’re making an incorrect assumption (well, your assumption might be correct but I don’t know that every community agrees with it). You assume that Hocheach Tochiach means publicly, on a communal level, taking a stand on any widespread violation of Halachah and not allowing it. And you might be right. However, the Derech that the “MO” communities hold on this issue is not that way. They assume that, for whatever reasons (and there are a few that might be legit) we cannot apply Hocheiach Tochiach to that extent. So yes, “MO” communities as a whole would not ostracize someone who doesn’t keep Shabbos or who eats pork. They might realize that there are other, inherent, obligatory separations from these people (e.g. you can’t trust their Kashrus). But these communities wouldn’t reject such a person on principle. They would reject, as DaMoshe says, the thief or the molester because he hurts others. Where does that Chiluk come from? Probably nowhere. But social norms develop all the time. Just like a Chareidi community would reject someone who doesn’t wear the uniform, even if there is no source for such a thing in Halachah.
HaKatan: I do not know anything about R’ Schwab’s and R’ Schachter’s relationship nor have I seen R’ Schwab’s response to R’ Schachter. I have, however, seen what R’ Schachter writes on this issue and have heard him discuss it in Shiurim on YUTorah many times. Never does he cite “Nationalism” or random S’varas about this. He bases his Shittah in the Rambam, Sefer HaChinuch, the Minchas Chinuch, and others. It is very much a Torah-based opinion. It is possible R’ Schwab did not understand it as such, for whatever reason, but that doesn’t change the fact that R’ Schachter did no such thing.
And your lack of knowledge (refusal to acknowledge) of ways Talmidei Chachamim speak is glaring. All the way back to the Tannaim, we have cases of major Talmidei Chachamim strongly insulting each other. Read how the Ra’avad refers to the Rambam and the Ba’al Hamaor. You are being foolish, deceitful, disingenuous, and slanderous to insinuate that when a Talmid Chacham (especially a Yekke) makes a disparaging remark about another it means he disregards the latter’s entire way of life rather than just strongly disagreeing with an opinion. Even here, DY and Popa have both had very harsh words for certain opinions of mine in the past (and I for opinions of theirs), because that is the nature of Torah. I don’t think any of us have any personal or religious animosity for one another because of it. Ad’raba, it creates a stronger relationship. Your attempts to portray the case as being the opposite are, for lack of a better word, evil.
besalel:
Your points about Uman, Rebbe-worship and zeman-Shabbos all relate to Chassidus, which holds itself to be different from traditional orthodox Judaism. This does not mean that they are correct, but this does make their practices not relevant here.
One very big difference between Chassidus and MO, in addition to what I posted above, is that, for example, spending thousands of dollars and traveling thousands of miles to Uman is obviously not an attempt to dilute orthodoxy or to change it to Nationalism=A”Z. Ditto the Rebbe-related hanhagos, including, for example, Chabad Chassidim flying in before a wedding to pray by Rabbi Schneerson’s grave. I am aware of what the gedolim have said about Chabad, but that is not the point here.
The point is that, unlike MO, chassidus is not an attempt to dilute orthodoxy and morph it into an unholy hybrid of Torah and, lihavdil, secular nationalism (which is A”Z as per even Rabbi JB Soloveitchik’s own father as well as Rav Elchonon, et al.)
Sam2:
I will refrain from throwing your insulting words back at you. Whatever Talmidei Chachamim did or did not do, I do not wish to personally insult anyone.
But you seem to have missed the part about how Rav Schwab is on record imploring MO to return from their errors and rejoin Klal Yisrael. So this was not at all my extrapolation from one piece on one opinion, as you claim, but rather Rav Schwab’s words.
As you surely recall, we already discussed the Rabbi Schachter piece, and Rav Schwab’s response, here, where I noted that Rav Schwab obviously did not misread the piece even if you are able to claim that, lihavdil (from Rav Schwab), that I misread it:
But let us be very clear: if one looks at the writing of Rav Schwab, in that piece in particular, it is obvious that Rav Schwab’s response to Rabbi Schachter’s piece was actually the opposite of just “par for the course” strong lashon as you claim, and, therefore, nothing to do with any “lack of knowledge” on my part.
Rav Schwab wrote there at the end that he was NOT trying to denigrate any particular talmid chacham; the very title of the piece is “He who loves does not hate”.
As mentioned, Rav Schwab was very much NOT disparaging anyone. As you noted that you didn’t read Rav Schwab’s response, perhaps that would have been a good idea, as it likely would have prevented you from wrongly accusing Rav Schwab (and also forming the wrong opinion about my post) of this.
Should you care to read it, Rav Schwab’s piece is listed as (elsewhere):
Sam,
I actually began my previous post intending to say what you are saying, that the chareidim have a misperception of what MO hold from, because MO are generally more willing to “live and let live” and accept differences in their community.
But I didn’t think it was true. And I don’t. I don’t think that any normal MO community would include a mechallel shabbos in public into their community as a normal member.
Maybe I’m misperceiving because most mechaleli shabbos don’t want to join the frum community anyway. But I just don’t think it is true anyway that you really would. Tell me RIETS would accept a student who was publicly mechalel shabbos (even not for semicha). Now tell me they wouldn’t accept a student whose wife dresses according to no halachic opinion m’dina.
I could be wrong on this; but am I really?
shkoacyh damoshe on the post!
hakatan: do the gedolim also condem the greaest zionest in our history as jewish eople Moshe rabbeinu!?!?!?!
(just saying im not a zionist myself but im just curious!)
PBA: I think you’re not right about this. Many “MO” Shuls have full members who are M’chalel Shabbos. They are accepted as people, though their Chillul Shabbos is never condoned (just not publicly condemned). I once Davened in a very left-wing Shul and a Balabas gave a D’var Torah at Shalosh Seudos about how considerate a Rabbi must be because he can’t give Shiurim on things his Balabatim aren’t Makpid on. The Rabbi then publicly responded that just because there are people who have trouble with some things the Torah says doesn’t mean we change what the Torah says. He said what everyone does on a personal level is up to them. But it’s his job to educate and guide, not to pander.
I do hear your question about RIETS. I’d actually be very curious to hear if they would have a reasoning behind that.
Yes, I’m aware they have members who are mechalel shabbos.
But on a social level, do you really consider them part of your religious community?
Chabad Houses generally have the same policy about Mechalel Shabbos people. When you have people who dont totally follow everything you have to be careful. If you boot them they may never come back and you have to decide which is worse. At least if they come they might change their ways, but if they dont come its a lost cause
PBA: I think many do. Many consider them good friends and people to talk, hang out, or discuss life and religion with. There’s just a knowledge that they’re not “Frum”. Your question is that a woman can wear pants and still avoid the “not-Ftum” moniker. What’s the Chiluk? Probably that you can trust the Kashrus of a woman who wears pants but not a M’challel Shabbos. That’s an important distinction.
hatakan: i am sure you know that gemuruh regarding the three oaths in kuf yud alef in ksubos has been explained by the zionists either as not lehuluchu (a minority opinion or just a medrish) or that once the goyim broke their part of the oath (to not be metzaer the jews too much) then the oaths were now broken.
not that it matters really but personally, i do not think any of this is shayich when it comes to a discussion about israel. israel is a country. its government and population is partly made up of zionists (a shrinking majority) partly made up of goyim like russians, partly made up of arabs and partly made up of jews who are not zionists (a growing minority). the zionists view the state of israel as a culmination of the zionist dream but the jury is still out on whether that will be case (most probably will not be the case). it is a country which as president obama told the egyptians “will not be going away.” the question is what happens to it. the chofetz chaim believed it is important to make sure that the country end up in the hands of the god fearing jews who are shomrei torah and mitzvis. rav yoel held it should be rejected and renounced. i am too small to tell whether rav yoel was right or the others were right but i accept the non-r’ yoel mehalich.
in a way israel is only seen as a zionist state by the arabs (who are afraid to tell the world they hate jews so they say they hate zionists) and the followers of r’ yoels doctrine. (and i know r yoel was not the only one to hold this way i just use the term because he was the most prominent).
i do not think anyone should take lightly the position of r’ yoel and those who share this view but i dont think its so pushitt to say everyone else in the world must be wrong. its a disagreement but we continue to live together and march together under the banner of torah and mitzvis.
itll be quite easy to point at different groups and label them as non-jews and i dont think its a good idea.
nor do i think that we should condone a judiasm without haluchu. the conservative movement believed that unity of the jews must be placed above everything else including haluchu. at the end, through their shitta there were no unity, no jews and no haluchu. so history has taught us that for there to be unity there must be torah and haluchu for which all must strive. but within that framework we must allow for differences of opinion so that our small and fractured nation doesnt become more fractured and smaller.
pba: even the agudah accepts people who you would consider “modern orthodox” and who dont cover their hair and have named their gemurus after such people. im sure the aguda accepts them not because they have money but because they accept accept shomer shabbos jews of all kind and will accept them even if they were poorer than dirt.
Dude, everyone does kiruv! It isn’t only chabad. Nobody kicks anyone out of shul for not keeping shabbos.
i agree, yom tov is coming up lets put aside our qaruling and enjoy yom tov
At the risk of sounding like a kool aid drinking, kumbaya singing bleeding heart, my only contribution to this discussion will be, how well does anyone commenting about “MO”, “chabad”, “chassidim” or any other group, know those groups and its individual members that they use these really broad paint brushes to paint whole groups of people in a negative light. Moreover, I would suggest speaking to ones Rav about the permissibility of doing so without any legitimate attempt at righting percieved wrongs
PBA: I think many do. Many consider them good friends and people to talk, hang out, or discuss life and religion with. There’s just a knowledge that they’re not “Frum”. Your question is that a woman can wear pants and still avoid the “not-Ftum” moniker. What’s the Chiluk? Probably that you can trust the Kashrus of a woman who wears pants but not a M’challel Shabbos. That’s an important distinction.
The second half of your post is a good point.
As regards the first half, I’m also friends with non-frum people, and non-jewish people, and religious people of other religions, etc. I think we’re talking here about who you consider part of your religious community.
And I think there is a bigger difference going on here, than just “these are the kitchens I eat in and these are the ones I don’t”
Those who sinned and left judaism have never been as bad for judaism as those who fought to have judaism redefined to be inclusive of their sins. The ovdei avodah zara in nach dragged down most of klal yisroel by not breaking from them. The reformers in Germany were more interested in bringing the Church into the shul than in living the cultured life themselves. And the quest for legitimacy and respect by the modern orthodox of today is no different. No one is without sin, but the focus is on goals. A ben aliyah wants to be better, not expand the definition of what is acceptable to accommodate his current status. And that my friends is the main difference between a pants wearing baalas teshuva who doesnt cover her hair and a modern orthodox woman who has the same appearance.
The Hirscheans learned the lesson well. When someone comes along and wants to redefine the definition of right and wrong, we don’t respect them. We cut them off. Perhaps Rabbi Schwab took a gentler approach with MO because they are not quite deserving of utter excommunication, but the message is clear. They must adapt to our ways, not the other way around.
oomis, i hold u in high regard but to say that noone does anything wrong is living in a fairytale.”
Oyoyoy, I appreciate being held in high regard by nice people. I did not, however, say what you apparently understood me to say.
Of course people do things wrong at times. My point was that sometimes people who are machmir on themselves THINK that someone is doing wrong, when al pi Halacha he is NOT, ebcause that person’s chumrah has come to take the place of the actual Ha;acha as it was given.
We ALL do wrong. I do, you, do, even Moshe Rabbeinu did. And that is because ONLY Hashem is perfect in His Tzidkus. But when I don’t know for sure what the right thing to do is, I ask a shailah. People who are machmir SOMETIMES (and please note I am not saying this is across the board true of ALL machmirim), look at people who follow the Halacha but are not machmir lifnim meshuiras hadin, as not being really frum Yidden. That is a divisive and elitist view, and can lead to machlokess,
squeak- no one here is saying move towards being less machmir, or not following charedi lifesytle etc. We are not saying adopt MO tradaiton. You should feel proud to be where you are. Trust me, I always look around at girls who grew up in bais yaakov homes, at how much they love tehillim. How much they recognize their role as a Jeiwsh woman in the world. How wonderfully diverese they are, but how important halcha, mitzvos and Hashem is to them.
I look at myself, Baruch Hashem, I am so proud of who I am. But i didnt grow up like that. This was a ecent change of my own personal choices and trust me it has not been easy.
No one in any community should be excommunicated. We are all Jewish. Most people do not know. They are “tinok sheaino yodeia”. Im post seminary and I only found out many things about halacha and life in my recent years. Not everyone is as fortunate the be in the places you are: At such a high level of fearing and loving Hashem.
This is why i PLEA to you, to hakatan, to damoshe, to the people here who speak so so highly of the Torah to STOP hating on people who call themselves MO, who conform to Zionistic ideas, who wear this type of black hat and not that, who work all day and learn in their limited spare time. I plea from the bottom of my heart, that you open yourselves up just a little bit more, to being kinder, to drawing people like the above in and showing them that your way of life is beautiful, and not judgemental. If you are not strong enough to do this, and you are aftraid you will be influenced the wrong way, then fine I respect that. But dont write posts here about why they are wrong wrong wrong wrong. Give them the benfit of the doubt. Take the hate out of your heart.
LOVE YOUR FELLOW JEW, BECAUSE THEY ARE A JEW. And if they dont know…TELL THEM!!!
1. They do say be less machmir. As it stands today, that comes in the form of “everything you do differently is a chumra and doesnt make you better”. This is a serious problem.
2. There is no hate in my beliefs. Its a simple fact that we do not tolerate meddling from without or from within.
3. Ideologies and those who subscribe to them sometimes should be excommunicated, because there is no way for them to coexist with a torah lifestyle. 150 years ago, it was Reform. Today it is ‘open orthodox’. As torah jews we never sing kumbaya without looking over our shoulders.
squeak- I wish you would open your heart a little more and not be so selfish. Im not asking you to xhange your views to listen to them etc. if you truley had ahava for your fellow jew, you would give them the benfit of the doubt and love them and attempt to draw then in. of course many people are not serving Hashem the way you are, as strignently and beautifully as you are. but you are completly missing the point! to not tolerate someone because they dont serve Hashem the way you do. thats self centered. and if you truly beleive they are doing almost avodah zara- help them!!!!!! dont be intolerant. becuase im sorry to say being closed off from jews who are unlike u is not veahavta leraycha camocha. its having a bad feeling in your heart for the other. Hashem doesn’t want this from us.
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