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cantoresq, I’ll have to disagree (with: “mpst of whom contribute precious little in anything to the intelectual development or spiritual life of the Jewish nation”).
“learners, most of whom contribute precious little in anything to the …spiritual life of the Jewish nation. “
ive tried to ignore all controversial threads lately, but i couldnt let this pass.
no i cant post a mikor, no i cant quote a Rav, you can believe me or not, i dont care (well i do care but i know you will not change)
if not for all the “learners” in Eretz Yisroel, either it would be a gihinnom on earth or would have long ceased to exist (as a state)
and were it not for the learners all over the world, the world would have ceased to exist. this is most pashut
No feivel it is not poshut. I’m all for the community supporting a cadre of elite scholars who are engrossed in full time learning. Klal Yisrael has always stood for that. But that is not what occurs today. The sine qua non of a getting a good shidduch is to be registered in Lakewood. One need not actually so much learn in Lakewood as be registered. The sine qua non for a girl to get a shidduch is years of kest. That the chosson does not actually learn is not so important as the shver willing to pay for the (non)learning. The illusion of mass learning, which in truth is mass batalah is unprecedented in Jewish history. It’s also killing jus economically.
Feivel,
All the learners in all the great Yeshivas in Poland and Lithuania did not prevent the Holocaust. How could you be so sure your dtastmen t is correct?
cantoresq,
I’m sad for you that you only notice the few batlanim and ignore the beautiful and thunderous Kol Torah emanating from the Lakewood Yeshiva buildings. I do not mean this sarcastically. I truly think that you believe what you are saying regarding Lakewood (“mass batalah”).
You have been inculcated with that view by cynical people, and it is not your fault. I hope you are allowed the opportunity for a different perspective one day.
milchig – Firstly, Thank You.
“Joseph appears to be pro learning and learning only. It appears to me that he does not take into account those that work hard to generously support the learners.”
I’m pro working, as well as pro supporting learning to the same degree I am pro-learning.
“We… are annoyed by those that take from the gov’t so the husband can learn and the wife can play mommy/housewife all day.”
Playing mommy/housewife all day is THE MOST praiseworthy (and rewarding) job a wife/mother can have.
“Joseph, In this day and age do you believe one can contribute to learning and working as well?”
Unequivocally.
“We are lucky that we can listen to a shiur (IPOD, MP3, Internet, CD ,Tape) and read a safer at lunch or commuting to work. There is no reason for not earning a parnassah.”
You just need to do the best you can. I find your learning activities most praiseworthy.
Playing mommy/housewife all day is THE MOST praiseworthy (and rewarding) job a wife/mother can have.
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Joseph, you’re right. I showed my wife your post and you’ve inspired her. She now wants to be a stay at home mother and homemaker. She’s quitting her job today. Of course, we rely on her pay check for certain things like groceries, tuition, her car payments, various uilities and other household expenses. Since we can’t do without those necessaries, we expect the Jewish community (i.e. You) to support this decision. E-mail me off list and I’ll tell you where to send your check. Oh by the way, my hat was starting to look a little old and I bought a new $250.00 Borsalino. You don’t mind paying for it it do you? After all it’s for the good of klal Yisrael.
cantoresq, I still have some maaiser left. Whats your email? I’ll also have Tomchei Shabbos add your address.
Joseph, it’s that kind of sanguine attitude that is killing Klal Yisrael. Time once was that people were ashamed to be supported by the community, they took pride in supporting themselves and their families. Not anymore.
to cantor b’h klall yisroel is not being killed..’ki lo sishkach mipi zaro’ only the chelek klall yisroel like you will dissapear with your heretic views,,
Gee Jent, thanks for telling me that in Judaism working for a living is heresy.
A few times I’ve commented on something, careful not to say any loshon hora or write anything that can be construed even slightly to be against halacha, but perhaps because the comments went against someone else’s personal opinion I’ve been raked over the coals. It’s happened a few times. I’ve practically stopped commenting. I’m sure that I’ll receive some sort of flack for commenting now!
Two things to remember as we make our comments:
1) Shivim panim l’Torah
2) Ayzeh hu chacham, halomed mi’kol adam
These ideas are important to have in mind. It’s easy to denigrate others; I have addressed this point before, but unfortunately it needs reinforcing. In the heat of a debate, and when one is so convinced that one is right, words slip out that can be hurtful. Let us all read over our posts a few times to check for disrespectful language before pressing the “Send” button.
I sincerely apologize if anything I have posted has offended anyone here.
“Shivim panim l’Torah”
most certainly.
unfortunately too often misinterpreted as an excuse for anything goes.
you have to apply it carefully.
it doesnt mean that whatever one believes is just fine
“Ayzeh hu chacham, halomed mi’kol adam”
yes one can learn from anyone and everything.
again most frequently applied to defend an anti-Torah outlook disguised as Torah.
“I sincerely apologize if anything I have posted has offended anyone here.”
you have always posted most carefully and respectfully even when you were being challenged. this has stood out strongly against a background of harsh comments so common here. you seem to have many fine middos.
And just to add to Feivel’s point:
“Ayzeh hu chacham, halomed mi’kol adam”
One can learn what NOT to do from someone doing something wrong.
The Big One-
“jewishabortionist02” would be an inflamatory screen name, no two ways about it. It would be extremely difficult to be melamed zchus for such a name.
I have friends (some balei tshuva, some not) who believe abortion is OK.
I certainly let them know that that is lo kihalocha, but I do not cut off my association with them.
I have one friend who relies on an eiruv that I do not, and at my request he does not carry when he comes to us on Shabbos.
The bottom line is I don’t have all the answers as to how to deal with different people (I asked Rav Feivel Cohen a shaila how to approach the Shabbos guest).
The “abortion” question you posed is a lot more black-and-white than the “red clothing” question, and an aborted child is much more of a tragedy than the wearing of red clothing.
To answer “What would the appropriate response be in your view?” – the first time, I would reply that is was kneged halacha, and show where.
If the person kept insisting that they were right, then there are a few choices: 1) Continue to argue, and try to bring additional rayos. 2) Decide that continued discussion won’t change the person’s mind and end the topic. 3) Tell the person that they are a <>. 4) Etc.
Part of chanoch lenar al pi darko is taking the best approach – factoring in the kavono and hashkofo of the other person, and in public (such as these threads) how your statements will affect and be percieved by others.
There have been people here who identified themselves as baalei tshuva, geirim and yesomim. We also don’t know who may be “teetering” and turned off by a blast of what they perceive as harsh, intolerant rhetoric.
One other factor is that unlike spoken conversation, these threads are close to ksav asher lo yimachek. Once something is posted it can’t be untyped.
This is not the concise answer you probably requested, but this is my philosophy when answering others.
Lets try to keep the discussion under the hood of one thread:
I can only try:
I moved your message to the thread under discussion.
Thanks
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