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Joseph,
Please stop using demagoguery yourself and, as noted above, please stop denigrating those yidden whom you disapprove of, ss noted in your post above.above.
I think I’ll change my ID to lessmodernorthodox, in honor of lesschumras.
Rav Moshe had more stringent pesak din in many areas and less stringent in others. However, they were all l’chatchilla according to Rav Moshe.
Can anyone in the yeshiva world please tell me why you refer to HaRav Soloveichik as JB?
Joseph,
One last point. Let’s say, for the purposes of this discussion only, that the points in your post were correct. You would still have to answer how that justifies why you felt you could not just respond to the Gedolim comment, but had to denigrate non-chareidi gedolim ( by placing “” around the word ) and bringing Reform/Conservative Jews into the conversation for the purpose of puttinh them down.
cantor: So you resorted to financial extortion to maintain your place in that Yeshiva?
At the risk of entering the fray very late, allow me to make the following statement: Respect all great talmidei chachomim. Whether you can call them “gedolim’ is not important and will always depend upon your allegiance. I agree that the Satmarer rebbe zz’l and Rav Shachz’l were gedolim.mainly because they had many followers. But I also accept Rav Joshe ber Soloveichik z’l as a godol amd I daresay that Rav Kook was one of the greatest ones. Rav Goren z’l knew as much Torah as any other rosh yeshiva in Bnai brak and it is a scandal that he is not respected.
In other words. if people would stop disenfrachising other Gedolim, we could at least be a little bit civil….I am pretty sure ,though,that the above will not be respected, because the one way you can ignore someone’s legitimate argument is by denigrating his greatness and thereby disenfranchising him. Thank Hakodesh Boruch Huh that history has a way of making things right…
Truth be told, all this talk about “gedolim” has had me laughing in every thread. I am a godol too, and I can be counted for a minyan. I find it amusing that people want to argue if the great Rabbonim are “gedolim” or not – I can guarantee you that they all are and have been for many years.
Klal yisroel does not universally agree on who its leaders are. The Sefardim have theirs, the “Litvaks” have theirs and the Chassidim have theirs. “Modern Orthodoxy” also has leaders. Each group should, no doubt, follow their leaders. If the Modern Orthodox leaders do not choose to tell their followers the same things that the Litvishe leaders do, then the Litvishe followers should not expect the Modern Orthodox to be doing those things. Doesn’t that make sense?
All the pitzelahs here can just go along following their own leaders and stop there. All this agenda pushing makes it sound like you are not comfortable “being the only one” to observe/follow some edict or chumra. Stop trying to push it on others. The responsibility for what the modern orthodox does rests on the plaitzes of modern orthodox leaders. If you don’t think that modern orthodox leaders demand enough from their followers, then ask THEM why they aren’t doing so. Simple. You are all followers, so don’t try to lead.
to The Big One and UJM,
“And why do you demand they have less chumras? And who are YOU to so demand? Answer: attack, attack, attack (when your ideas are failing.) “
Sigh!! My posts to this stream emphasize that we are all entitled to our halachacly based ( whether that Rav be Chareidi,Chassidish, Yeshivish or Modern Orthodox ) opinions. To Big One, I’ve not attacked your right to observe chumrahs, nor have I demanded anything of you. My screen name implies that just as you have the right to observe more chumrahs, I have the right to observe fewer chumrahs. The more or fewer number of chumrahs we observe is a matter of personal ( halachacly-based ) choice and both are correct, in what works best for you. Why is it necessary for both the Big One and ujm to make it personal by assuming it’s an attack or, as in ujm’s case, attacking MO?
I think a godol can be defined as a well known talmid chochom, to whom a great multitude of people turn to for halachik direction.
With that in mind, (at the risk of “outing” myself as a YU alumni) I have to disagree with cantoresq. I know all the personalities you mention. By my definition Rav Shechter fits the bill, but R’ Michael Rosenzweig and R’ Willig? Tremendous talmidei chachomim no doubt, but gedolim? Hardly. By the way, I am embarrassed by the fact that he chooses to go by the name Michael.
Regarding lesschumras, I was going to make the exact point that someone else did…
kocha de’heteira odif. HKB”H gave us 613 mitzvos which are difficult enough to be midakdek in correctly. There is no need to be machmir above and beyond…..
If someone wants to be machmir for himself, fine. But the “chumra of the week” which becomes Toras Moshe in many cases, I think we can do without.
torahis1:
Maybe after you stop bashing Chareidim for one thing after another you can have a voice. As every long time reader here knows, once your screen name appears an attack upon Torah Judaism is sure to follow.
THAT is sinas chinam and an utter chillul hashem.
cantoresq, To address your main point, it is necessary to break it into its two components. I agree with you it is wrong to denigrate any proper Rabbi. But as far as “refusing to recognize the greatness”, I’ll have to disagree with you. You can’t, to take R. Goren as an example again, impose on us to accept “the greatness” of someone like that. (We had a long conversation about him a number of months ago.)
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Why? But in all truth I’ll “fargin” you the subjectivity you desire. But fair is fair and you must fargin me the same subjectivity and accept my complete revulsion for R. Svei (even before he became sick and incapacitated), and still consider me a kosher Yid.
The Big One
Member
cantor: So you resorted to financial extortion to maintain your place in that Yeshiva?
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Not at all. I simply made two things clear. Actions have consequences, and I would allow him to educate by intimidation, as he usually did with students. I gave him a taste of his own medicine. Truth be told, I hated the place, but was stuck since had I been expelled or left that late in the year, I would have lost my YU credits for the year and my mother would have killed me. Thus the need to fight it out with him.
have a good shabbos chachom (or r u really joseph, ujm all rolled into one?)
hmmmmmmmmmm…
lesschumras,
I totally sympathize with you. I too feel to each his own. You wanna be modern, you be modern. You wanna be reform? What can I do to stop you? But personally, don’t blame me for wanting to be less modern. Same feeling as you.
Formerly ujm
to formerly ujm,
I don’t blame you wanting to be less modern. It would be extremely hypocritical of me to deny you the freedom of choice I desire for myself. As long as we are both doing our thing al pi halacha and according to our respective Rav I feel the same as you.
Have a good Shabbos
And milchig, how is that comment in the aforementioned post fall into your call for “a need for respect ben adam lchaveiro”? It falls far short. Is that your definition of the “need for all Jews to respect eachother”?
Or are the Jews in Williamsburg excluded from your call?
Nebach!
milchig,
Trust me, I don’t need a response. It is the heilige Yidden from Williamsburg, whom you maliciously defamed in comment #10 here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=23426 who you need to apologize to. Calling them cheats and perverts, as you referred to “many” of them is an outrage and defamation of character against a whole community of Jews. And anyone who hears that false allegation leveled against another Yid, and fails to respond to such loshon hora, rechilus, and motzi shem ra becomes as guilty as the one who mouthed that sheker. Its still a week before Rosh Hashonah.
cantor,
A good definition of a Godol is someone who other Rabbonim, cross-denominational (within Orthodoxy), seek guidance and responsa from. i.e. Rav Eliyashiv, The Skulener Rebbe, and the Babi Sali (to pick 3 names) all did all of this for Jews of Sefardic, Chasidic, and Litvish (to pick 3 denominations) persuasion (meaning all of the 3 Rabbinical examples were sought by all of the 3 denominational examples). The names you mentioned did not. i.e. Rav Schachter is a big talmid chochom, but his halachic decisions is not generally sought as binding guidance outside of YU/MO circles. (Some of the other names you mentioned, were even more pronounced in this regard.)
And Rav Svei is sought after cross-denominationaly (as much as YU may not like this). So he would certainly fall into this category.
Bogen
Member
cantor,
A good definition of a Godol is someone who other Rabbonim, cross-denominational (within Orthodoxy), seek guidance and responsa from. i.e. Rav Eliyashiv, The Skulener Rebbe, and the Babi Sali (to pick 3 names) all did all of this for Jews of Sefardic, Chasidic, and Litvish (to pick 3 denominations) persuasion (meaning all of the 3 Rabbinical examples were sought by all of the 3 denominational examples). The names you mentioned did not. i.e. Rav Schachter is a big talmid chochom, but his halachic decisions is not generally sought as binding guidance outside of YU/MO circles. (Some of the other names you mentioned, were even more pronounced in this regard.)
And Rav Svei is sought after cross-denominationaly (as much as YU may not like this). So he would certainly fall into this category.
Posted 11 hours ago #
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The definition you supply is unworkable since issues of hashkafa influence who people ask. Due to differences in hashkafa the mroe right wing branches of Orthodoxy refuse to recognize those on the left, their scholarship, wisdom. Yirat Shamayim and moddot notwithstanding. Since the chareidi element would never seek out a R. Herschel Schachter or a R. Aaron Lichtenstein (for example) for advice, they can never meet your requirement of cross denonminational respect to qualify as gedolim. The left wing of Orthodoxy, is generally far more respectful of the right wing. Giving this matter considerable thought over the past few days, and in light of complication desribed here, I cannot arrive at a rational test for determining who is a gadol. It’s all way too subjective.
cantoresq, I think you are convoluting respect and acceptance. Rav Schachter is respected by Chareidim (I’m not referring to every yodle who finds it necessary to give his two cents in a forum, but rather the Rabbinical establishment.) But his psak and opinions are not necessarily accepted.
When you say that “the left wing of Orthodoxy, is generally far more respectful of the right wing” you are actually alluding to acceptance more so than respect. Just on a basic level, what is there not to accept if someone is more stringent? (You can’t fault the next guy for having stringencies you don’t.) The reverse cannot necessarily be said. And indeed the left wing seeks advice from the Gedolim (who are on the right.)
Joseph your attempt as distinguishing acceptance from resepct is creative, but misguided. In fact R. Schachter and other non-chareidi rabbanim are not respected, much less accepted. The proof of that is that he is not even allowed “in the room” much less given a seat “at the table” when the c hareidi “greats” convene to dsicuss issues of communal importance. The non-chareidi viewpoint is not even allowed to be voiced at such gatherings, are not considered at all, and are rejected by default. i think the events of a Agudah convention about fifteen years ago sums it up. One year, R. Sherer z”l expended tremendous effort to invite the modern Orthodox rabbis of Young Israel to the convention. There is no doubt that his motives were pure and genuine. In light of his efforts and out of respect for everything R. Sherer stood for, R. Hershel Schachter accepted the invitation and told R. Sherer that he would attend the Saturday evening keynote address. Ever the gentleman, R. Sherer reserved a front row seat for the Rosh Kolel of RIETS. I don’t remmeber who it was, but upon R. Schachter being seated either R. Gifter or R. Svei ver loudly and publicy stood up and walked out saying he would not return until [a very humiliated] R. Schachter left. You talk about respect. I’m lookng for basic human decency.
cantoresq: “The proof of that is that he is not even allowed “in the room” much less given a seat “at the table” when the chareidi “greats” convene to dsicuss issues of communal importance.”
And who is to say that any particular Rabbi is so entitled to a seat at the table with the greats?
Being that R’ Gifters daughter in law and R’ Schachters wife are sisters, I would highly doubt it was R’ Gifter you walked away from the table…
never heard of that supposed story at the agudah convention. and no reference to it through google.
Joseph, please address the second portion of my post, the more importnt part. As to your implication that R. Schachter does deserve a place “at the table” for purposes of this conversation I’ll accept that. Can you please name one single non-chareidi rav who does? Can you please name one singe non-chareidi gadol from the last 150 years who would have deserved a seat at the table?
cantoresq, That wasn’t my implication. Who am I to make such a determination? I suggested that who are we to determine so and so does belong at the table, or does not. So who are either of us to say Rabbi so-and-so deserves a place at the table? Its neither of our perogitives.
Now this point having been made, let me proceed. You ask to name a single non-chareidi (which I take you to mean MO) godol. Who said that there is one? (I am not saying yea or nay.) You have declared yourself unable to define what a godol even is.
Joseph, your sophistic prevarication speaks louder than your words. You’ve made your point, my point actually. There is no chance ever that chareidim will ever fully embrace the legitimacy of non-chareidiut, even if they themselves choose to live otherwise. There is no ever that chareidim will reocognize the spiritual greatness of non-chareidi rabbanim. There is no chance ever that chareidim will fully embrace other Jews on any other than their (i.e. chareidi) terms. Certain chareidi apologists like R. Shafran or Jonathan Rosenbloom may be very polite in this rejection of other Jewish schools of thought and of other Jews, other less so. But the facts remain the same. The doctrinal split is manifest. It’s a matter of time before the sociological implications come home to roost.
cantoresq
You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head. I’ve couldn’t have said any better. There can never be any serious discussion with Joseph since, as you stated so clearly, he starts from the premise that there is no legitimate path other than chareidut. He at times states his point more eloquently that others on this blog, but the point is always the same.
cantoresq, And which, in your opinion, doctrinal dictum is winning the war for the hearts and soul of Yiddishkeit? Which is adding more boots in the ground?
Joseph
Member
cantoresq, And which, in your opinion, doctrinal dictum is winning the war for the hearts and soul of Yiddishkeit? Which is adding more boots in the ground?
Posted 2 hours ago #
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I never knew that the search for truth is rooted in a popularity contest. Let’s not forget that even the most perverse ideologies (i.e. communism) had their instances of great popularity. But tell me Joseph, what do you believe will happen to contemporary chareidiut when the money really runs out?
cantoresq, The Torah runs without cash. I have no idea (nor care) what you mean by that, but can assure you our Yeshivos and Talmedei Chachomim have thrived in poverty more so than in wealth.
Joseph,
If you are going by boots on the ground, the secular and non religious seem to have won out. Frum Jews have made up less than 20% worldwide for a long time. While the vast majority of that 80% have no background, their parents and grandparenrs in Europe and elsewhere were brought up frum ( and that frumkeit in Europe was not MO, it was chassidish and charedi ) and walked away from it. The war between the Litaks and the Chassidim in Europe didn’t stop until they came to the realization that as they were fighting each other for the soul of Yiddishkeit, that soul was shrinking dramatically as they were losing more and more Yidden to the secular world.
I don’t understand why it makes a difference to you whether a person is MO, Chassidish, or Chareidi or whether one is Zionist or not. Noone is going to have their minds changed through these polemics. All it does is call alot of namecalling from both sides.If I may take the liberty of stepping into your shoes, I would direct my efforts toward outreach to the unaffiliated. Chareidut continues to grow because their large families. As Cantoresq said, the current unprecdented level of kollel participation has been fueled in the US and in Israel by the unprecedented level of wealth in the US. What happens when the current generation that is bankrolling it passes on? The downfall of Lehman and Bear Sterns did not help.
I was not going to comment on the above posting….but Joseph’s last posting,that Torah runs without cash, is so contrary to the mishna that I have to point it out. Avos ,perek Gimmel, Mishna Kof alef (Chapter 3, Mishna 21) : ” Im ein kemach, ein torah, im ein torah, ein kemach”. if there is no food, there is no Torah (and,indeed ,vice versa)
If this is good enough for Rabbi Elazar ben Azaryah, it surely is good enough for all of us. To say that that yeshivos thrived in poverty is ridiculous.Yes, yes, I also know the mishna in Perek vov (Pas bamelach tochal,etc) but this is for individuals,not the Klal (BTW-look into the explanation that the Artscroll gives on this mishnah).
All the yeshivos,over the years have tried to make the talmidim’s life better and more comfortable, from R’Meir Shapiro for yeshivas Chachmei Lublin, to the Alter from Slobodka for his yeshiva to all the yeshivos today.
Money is indeed important for any yeshiva or any talmid chochom.
My point being that pre-war few Yeshivas were wealthy and indeed poverty was rampant. And yet the Yeshivas pre-churban produced top notch Talmidei Chachomim. Of course food must be put on the table, but the rampant wealth we in America are cursed with, is more an impediment towards learning, than a benefit. Indeed many of our greatest scholars lived in the most dire conditions of pverty (and were happy with their lot.)
People did live in poverty, and managed to get by, in the past. They managed by having members of their communities help them. However, now, the amount of people who want the help is greater than it’s been in a very long time, possibly greater than it has ever been. There simply won’t be enough to go around. People will want to be supported in kollel, but there won’t be people to pay for the support.
The Gemara in Kiddushin says a father is obligated to teach his son a trade. In a kesubah, it says the husband will feed and clothe his wife, not the other way around.
The way it should work is that the majority of people should be working, of course with sedarim in the morning or evenings (or both). A select group will sit and learn all day, and be supported fully. Not the small amount that a standard kollel pays, but the amount which a regular job would pay. That is the real Yissachar/Zevulun partnership, which is missing today. A person like that is fulfilling his kesubah, as with his learning, he is supporting his wife, not the other way around.
Joseph
Member
cantoresq, The Torah runs without cash. I have no idea (nor care) what you mean by that, but can assure you our Yeshivos and Talmedei Chachomim have thrived in poverty more so than in wealth.
Posted 5 hours ago #
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Joseph there are still people alive who well remmeber how Torah thrived in the poverty of Europe. Ask them how they enjoyed wearing second hand clothing given them by the kehilla. Ask them how enriching it was to beg for and “Ess Tog.” From among those who didn’t merit to learn in yeshiva, ask them how they liked being apprecticed out to learn trades at the age of ten or eleven. I can’t imagine that you actually believe that pre WWII young Jewish men sat and learned (or just sat and didn’t learn, or maybe just registered to sit and did neither) in the same proportions as exists today. In the 1930’s Mir had approximately 150 students, from 150 different communities. No single community could afford to send more than one boy to a yeshiva. Indeed in that enviornment Torah thrived. It thrived because Jews had the proper perspective about it. People who were selected and nutured to be engrossed in it full time were so sselected based uon their talents and apptitude. Thus did the yeshivot create great talmidei chachamim; only the cream of the crop were admitted. The rest of Jewry toiled in more this wordly pursuits. torah learning was no a social convention, but rather a sacred vocation. Post WWII it has become a perverse criteria for admittance into a truncated prostituted version of Orthodoxy.
cantoresq, second-hand clothing!? GASP! Were they able to learn any less with their second-hand clothing instead of Giorgio Armani?
Joseph, you have a very interesting way of debating. You ignore the kernel and deal only with the chafe. I’ve encountered this before in yeshivish circles. While it may play as witty in the Beis Medrash, in real adult parlance, it comes off as peurile and as just so much prevarication.
Joseph,
Once again, you intentionally miss the point and sieze on a minor comment to deflect attention away from the fact that you have no answer to his real point.
you said ” cantoresq, The Torah runs without cash. I have no idea (nor care) what you mean by that, but can assure you our Yeshivos and Talmedei Chachomim have thrived in poverty more so than in wealth. “
You did not address his point. Unlike in today’s world where the wealth of donors and the funding by the Israeli government have allowed unprecednted numbers to live a kollel life, poverty in Europe never allowed more than the cream of the crop live that kind of life.
joseph- for a change, on of your postings made me laugh. There is a gemoro quote which goes “nitzchoni” -you have triumphed over me (in talmudic discourse). I must say that your last remark was in that category!
rabbiofberlin – I’m glad to hear that!
cantoresq, there is no meat to your arguments. Its all chitzoniyus.
No Jospeh, you didn’t address the main point that cantoresq and I made. In the old days, only a select few sat and learned. You can’t compare that to today, where a huge percentage sit and learn all day. The money to support them has to come from somewhere.
I once asked my Rosh Yeshiva why so many people are encouraged to sit in kollel all day, when that was never the norm before. he told me that after WW2, we had lost so many gedolim, and Frum Judaism was in bad shape. Many people were leaving yiddishkeit because of their experiences. He said that we needed to rebuild, and needed to produce gedolim to do that. He said that’s why the kollel lifestyle was encouraged like never before.
I think that now, we have the gedolim we need. The Baal Teshuva movement is stronger than it’s ever been. It’s time to go back to the way things were.
lesschumras:
I believe Joseph’s point is that we may be better off without “unprecednted numbers to live a kollel life”, since those who do learn can not reach their full potential while not in poverty (one of the 48). Good point by Cantoresq that without the struggle, we do not have the proper perspective on learning.
This is a valid argument, even though there are many Gedolim that would argue. (especially in E”Y, where funding is the only reason why the Charaidim are in politics.)
It is very possible that Rav Miller would agree, so Joseph is consistent. It does not bode well for Joseph’s view of Lakewood, though.
I believe that Klal Yisroel would benefit from more Torah learners. Klal Yisroel has always supported our Talmidei Chachomim.
I haven’t addressed Israel in particular in this thread. My views there reflect the Brisk/Satmar/etc. way, that they refuse to take any government funds from the zionist state.
Not sure how we got from the original topic to the last few posts, but as we did, has anyone here read R’ Yonasan Rosenblum’s article, Chemotherapy as a Metaphor?
Joseph
Member
I believe that Klal Yisroel would benefit from more Torah learners. Klal Yisroel has always supported our Talmidei Chachomim.
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That’s true. But it’s only in the last 20-30 years that we have undertaken to support a whole society of learners, mpst of whom contribute precious little in anything to the intelectual development or spiritual life of the Jewish nation.
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