Respect for other posters comments

Hear, hear!

The problem with the above comments is that it usually applied to someone with different opinions or who relies on different psak halochas. It also, as has been done to me by one particular poster, means that a posting name should not be used and modified into an object of derision

for the most part i agree with you, however when someone tries to go against our holy torah in any which way, darf men mocha zein in full force.

milchig,

“There is a polite way to tell someone that you disagree with them without calling them liars (in Hebrew/Yiddish), morons and all those other kind words we teach our children not to use.”

I completely agree with you, milchig. It seems that posters of all kinds have difficulty maintaining a respectful tone.

Phrases such as: “holier than thou, super machmir, Taliban, judgemental, mean spriritedness” do not contribute to a respectful dialogue between posters. Yes, this is truly an ugly, unfriendly representation of the Torah world.

Torahis1- I’m saddened that someone slipped so soon and provided an apt example of milchig’s important point. You write that you’ve been “screaming”. Please don’t. We can discuss issues instead of denigrating our conversational partners.

The same can be said for posters who use denigrating language to tar those who maintain more lenient Halachic positions. It is more helpful to discuss the issues; avoid personalizing the discussion. A certainty of your position does not require accusation. Try saying simply, “This is the Halachah, and I feel you are incorrect”.

You are either correct, or incorrect. Neither status precludes dignified expression.

I’m someone who is generally on the recieving end of the vitriol here. I take it in stride. When people here deride my religiosity or impugn my piety and belief in response to my POV, it tells me that I’ve seriously challenged their way of thinking and made them momentarily uncomfortable with their entrenched biases. In short, it tells me that I’ve made my point and made it well.

Well, I think this is a general problem in life that is exacerbated in the anonimity of web forums. I have seen a total lack of respect for other people’s psak halacha.

One example: when I moved to Brooklyn, I asked a rav about the Brooklyn eruv and was told it is kosher and I can use it. I was happy with this because I grew up in Monsey with an eruv and its so easy to forget that you cannot carry when you grow up with it.

When I encountered people who didnt hold by the eruv they would say things like “There is no eruv – you shouldnt be carrying!” and I would explain to them that yes, there is an eruv though they might not hold by it. There is a big difference. I would get frequent eye rolls and mutters. So are these people able to pasken halacha (no, they cannot – none are Rabbis)? And yet they believe they know more than my Rabbi?? I understand that THEY dont hold by it, but they dont have to deny its existance!

OK, this turned into a rant. My point is that just because your psak says no, doesnt mean everyone holds by the same thing. You can respect someone’s right to follow one path WITHOUT agreeing with what they do.

“Really? who are u to decide what is against the Torah? And even so, who appointed you to go after them? What does ‘full force’ mean? beating up women on busses? throwing bleach on women? character assasination of musicians? threatening and harassing Rabbonim dealing with child predators?

gimme a break”

Torahis1,

This is so unfair and inappropriate. Do you have evidence that veimloachshuv has engaged in or supports violence and harrassment? Is it right to hurl accusations? How did you make the leap from “full force” as written and “bleach”? “Full force” protestations can be written respectfully too.

This type of language is in the same “genre” as “Apikorus” and similar. You may not like the company of those who maintain positions closer to the right, but to me, all individuals who speak with such nastiness are birds of a feather, even as they fight in the flock.

I think what Torahis1 meant to say is that when someone like veimloachshuv makes a value judgement as to what “go against our holy torah in any which way ” exactly means,

it results in him going after someone ” darf men mocha zein in full force ” it results in inappropriate responses. Everyone is entitled to thier opinion as long as they are following a proper ( whether it be Chareidi, Yeshivish, Chassidish or MO ) Rav and their psak and everyone is entitled to disagree respevtfully.

lesschumras,

Regardless of what Torahis1 is attempting “to say”, he is using a language and manner that is a perfect example of the concern milchig brought to the table. This is exactly the point: if you have something to say, do so respectfully. Retain your dignity.

Parenthetically, less chumras, I have found your posts to be respectful, albeit strong at times; that is the ideal presentation in a dialogue of strong opinions. You are able to vehemently disagree (with me, at times :)) without lowering yourself to a shrill, juvenile screaming match.

postsemgirl,

I suppose that you are referring to the fact that everyone thinks that they are middle of the road. That is human nature.

SJSinNYC,

I hope you didn’t think I was referring specifically to you. I was just saying something that I noticed in general. No need to defend yourself.

You say that it would be nice if the more “machmir” side would say, “That is the more lenient opinion, I hold by the more stringent”. It would also be nice if the more “lenient” side would say that maybe they are wrong and life is all about moving up. Of course maybe their more “lenient” opinion is within the boundaries of Halacha but maybe not. Instead of attacking maybe think that you are wrong just as you would like to think that the more machmir person may be wrong.

Again, this is not referring specifically to you. I did not have any specific posts in mind.

intellegent- no it’s that everyone else is no good and we have to put them down

torahis1,

I don’t think I “grossly misunderstood you”; the language you employ is unfortunately easily understood.

I don’t think I can help out further here, so if you don’t know “what I want from” you, then I wish you well.

To those posters who have demonstrated agreement with and understanding of milchig’s position- whether from the right, the left, or the center (and we all think we are the center, don’t we? :)), it can be done! I will use greater care to avoid judgmental labeling, tarring groups, and nasty exaggeration; I am certain others will join in this attempt.

Thank you milchig, and Hatzlachah to us all!

Calling another Jew a Taliban or ranting about burqas, or calling someone a religious fanatic is out of the bounds of acceptable dialog.

Calling a set of Jews (Chareidim, Chasidim) bad, or saying that they are fanatics or perverts or whatever is also outside acceptable conversation.

It is examples like these that tend to escalate and overheat threads.

torahis1, YOU are precisely the kind of vitriolic and hateful poster that these comments are referring to!

torahis1

“modern orthodox gedolim”

its very difficult to comment on this phrase without saying something that might anger you.

let me just suggest, though, that i have the feeling, that it is just possible, that perhaps you may have a somewhat limited understanding of what a Godol in Klal Yisroel means.

veimloachshav – thanx for the good wishes.. to you as well. as for joining your collective hashkofos, I would need to lose quite a lot of brain cells in order for that to happen.

feivel

Member

torahis1

“modern orthodox gedolim”

its very difficult to comment on this phrase without saying something that might anger you.

let me just suggest, though, that i have the feeling, that it is just possible, that perhaps you may have a somewhat limited understanding of what a Godol in Klal Yisroel means.

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The same might be said of those who denigrate and refuse to recognize the greatness of rabbanim like R. Herschel Schachter, R. Mordechai Willig, R. Michael Rosenzweig, R. Aaron Lichtenstein, or of past giants like R. Joseph Soloveitchik, R. Shlomo Goren, R. Isaac Herzog, R Bernard Revel etc. The same might be said of those who say things like “R. Dovid Lifschitz could have been a gadol but he taught at YU.” People say such things about him, about the Lomze Rav. People say things to the extent that R. Yerucham Gorelick was a gadol despite teaching at YU. Perhaps it is they who have a “somewhat limited understanding of what a Godol in klal Yisroel means.”

ujm –

I do not characterize all chareidim like that.

I only use those terms in reference to those who speak & behave that way.

for example-

those people throw bleach on women,

those people appoint themselves and ban music.

those people that harass Rabbi Twerski.

including anyone who defends thuggery whether they be posting it on this site …or elsewhere.

Joseph,

It’s ironic that in a stream that deals with respect for others ,comments that you make continue to exhibit disdain for others on a personal level. You have your definition of a Godol and you are entitled to it. You are even entitled to disagree with cantoresq. But when you express it as follows ” I noticed lately that every sub-group feels left out unless they take the top 10% of their Rabbis and declare them to be “gedolim.” Otherwise how could they compete with the universally acknowledged Gedolim, who happen to be from outside their hashkofos” you are being condescending resorting to putting down others in order to make yourself feel better. Unless you are a psychiatrist or psychologist, please leave the psychoanalysis to others and not resort to belittling other yidden. Thank you.

lesschumras, I disagree with your psychoanalysis of my comment. Moreover, I find your very screen name condescending to all those Yidden who are machmir on halacha.

apropos to the Joseph/lesschumras dialogue, I’d like t point out that contrary to Joseph’s implication, there are far fewer “universally acknowledged gedeolim” than he might think. For example, I can say for a fact that outside the Litvishe velt, R. Svei is not considered a gadol, nor was R. Gifter. Chassidim didn’t recognize them as anything special since they were not chassidic. Modern Orthodoxy rejected them due to their insutling R. Norman Lamm and YU. R. Schach was similarly rejected by non-chareidim for his countelss charamot and reactionary stances. Indeed for those of you who took a R. Schach cherem seriously, please note I am in cherem from him as I attended Nechama Liebowitz’s shiurim when I was in yeshiva in Israel (this was no small matter, when the Rosh Yeshiva found out, he wanted to expell me. It was only when I threatened to tell everyone back in US why I was expelled, particularly one big donor did he back down). And on a final note the cyclical veneration and disparagement of R. Ovadia Yosef as displayed in the chareidi press renders the entire concept of “Gadolei Yisrael” most hollow.

Joseph,

In addition, my screen name merely states my position, it is not condescending . It does not say “It is similar to how now the “fill in the blank ” have co-opted various chumrahs , and have their own “chumrahs”, and the like. Its obvious they feel less Jewish unless they too can have chumrahs” . My screen name does not belittle anybody.

Intellegent, I didnt think you were specifically talking about me, but given that using forums as a communication medium is severly lacking ( you can hear inflection, sarcasm etc), I am always nervous that I offend people without meaning to. It was more a shout out to the general public here, especially because I am more modern than most people here.

Also, about your “more lenient” people thinking about whether or not what they are doing is appropriate: when I get a psak halacha and people tell me “that is against halacha” it bothers me. If I am unsure, I would go check, but a little tolerance is always appreciated from everyone.

You can disagree with my psak/opinion/way of life and still respect my right to practice/think/act as I see fit.

Joseph,

Since you picked out any one name of the Rabbis listed by Cantoresq, I am assuming you feel the same about all the people on his list.

Can you tell me what YOUR definition of a Gadol is?

Because you dont have to like or even approve of YU to know that R’ Herschel Schachter is a tremendous Gadol B’Torah and has unparalled middos. People from all different walks of life flock to hear him speak when he comes to any neighborhood. Is he not “good enough” for you??

Ah Gutten Erev Shabbos