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Mezonos Maven – I haven’t claimed that they’ve said that. All I said is that when they do that – it’ll GREATLY help our current shidduch scene. It’s so simple – we can add 500 new boys into the shidduch scene 6 months earlier. It needs to be done, and if the R”Y start with their own children & grandchildren – it’ll change the trend to how it was 20 years ago – when there was no crisis….
CKK,
None of the Rabbonim & R”Y’s mentioned that in their letter. It is obvious that the Rabbonim & R”Y’s WANT our bachorim to learn Torah in E”Y the longer the better. The Rabbonim & R”Y’s had the opportunity to say otherwise in the letter, especially considering NASI’s personal have been pushing that option long before the letter, and yet the Rabbonim & R”Y’s specifically did NOT give that as a reason in the letter — specifically because they do not want that to happen. They value the learning as a priority.
And why do we have to start earlier? Maybe the girls should start later?
Mezonos Maven – I’m not sure what NASI did or didn’t ask the R”Y to sign, I really have no idea. But – and here I’m gonna drop a bombshell – one can learn a)in America b)while married. So, while the R”Y value learning – what does that have to do with learning in E”Y? There are B”H plenty of Mosdos Hatorah here in the US where a Bochur or Yungerman can learn. We need to analyze what has changed over the last twenty years in the shidduch scene, see where the problem has come from and try to fix it. By having Bochurim go to E”Y 6 months younger, return 6 months earlier (no Torah lost in E”Y) & begin dating earlier – we’ll greatly help the current situation.
CKK,
1. Many Rabbonim & R”Y’s feel the Torah learning in E”Y is on a higher level.
2. Many Rabbonim & R”Y’s feel the learning BEFORE marriage has many advantages of less distraction than is possible after marriage.
Cholent, if it’s indeed a question of numbers, that should solve the problem.
one question thats a little random but has to do with the title of the thread- how can students or teens help with shidduchim?
Mezonos Maven:
1) the number of nebach older boys PALES in comparison to the number of older girls which is why it is considered a girls crisis. The boys that are older and still single could take a girls every night of the week if the so choose. So while the pain of being single is there for boys as well, the numbers dictate that hundreds of girls have not shot.
2) Interesting you talk about what the R”Y did or didn’t sign. And what if I told you that many R”Y believe boys should come back earlier but aren’t ready to sign such a public statement because the boys are not ready to listen??? You’ll probable call me a liar- that is until a year from now when presto many R”Y are encouraging their boys to curtail their time in EY somewhat.
Here’s a suggestion. Instead of pontificating, try speaking to R”Y when you happen to see them. I’ll think you will be surprised by what MANY will say. I know -because I have.
CKK, unlike with the girls, the boys don’t have an arbitrary time that they go to E”Y. If it is arbitrary, we have a great problem with our learning system. It should be an organic part of their program to maximize their growth in learning. For some boys it will be this year, that zman, for others a different one, varying from yeshiva to yeshiva, and from boy to boy within a single yeshiva.
Then, depending on where they go, whom they form a shaichus with, etc. each boy will stay as long as it is feasible for him and his parents, while he is still growing.
If it’s all arbitrary, better the boys stay in chu”l.
And a P.S. One might argue, but it’s different for the girls. EXACTLY. Boys and girls ARE different. Their educational system is different, and they may actually be ready for certain things at different ages.
Mezonos Maven – I am sure there are ma’alos to both learning in E”Y and learning before one gets married, but if we restructure the present system – we’ll marry off hundreds of our singles. Maybe it’s time for change.
tzippi – it’s not something that has to be “across the board” – if there are bochurim who need more time in E”Y – great, noone is shlepping them back. But, we have created a culture that encourages boys to wait till 23 to start dating, when many of them can really start dating younger. It’s today’s fad. and it can and should change!
yoyo – yes, they can daven!!
I was wondering, let’s say my basheret wasn’t within the acceptable “age gap,” does that mean I shouldn’t marry her, bc doing so will cause a different older girl stay single?
Tzippi: If boys only went and stayed in EY as long as their learning was productive and not because of the system/”what the oilam does”; then we would have many many more boys starting to date slightly earlier. This is one of the worst kept secrets in the yeshiva oilam, the boys know it and the rebbeim know BUT change is never easy and usually takes time.
It’s a shame that this process of change is costing many girls their chance, but we can’t force change….
Justin: I’m just wondering how in the world u would know who your by basherte is? For the record the Arizal writes that bas ploni l’ploni is only true till a boy is 18. (not that I have any interest in debating the irrelevant (for the purposes of our discussin) haskafa issue of bas ploni l’ploni)
AZ – if the Roshei Yeshiva 70 were serious about the Kol Korei, they wouldn’t exclude themselves from it.
AZ, about how long are the boys in E”Y on average, from what age to what age?
Who are the older ones going to marry?????????? Or maybe Hashem forgot about them (chas ve shalom)?????????
To Cherry bim, in defense of the “R”Y 70”: who’s to say that their sons didn’t date a few girls within range first? Let’s be dan l’kaf zechus. You see, you may be on to something. Is this to be MANDATED for MARRIAGE? Or for a limited trial run re shidduchim? Because the latter is reasonable and possible, the former is not.
tzippi, it doesn’t make a difference; if leadership signs on without conditions, then lead.
mybat: no hope is a very strong term. But as things stand there are not enough boys to go around. Yes it is very very tragic. The longer we as a community sit on our collective hands the more girls will fall victim. Hashem hasn’t forgoteen, we are being blind.
Tzippi: The boys that go to EY after a couple of years in bais medrash in America typically go first at around 21 and return on average at 22.5 many closer to 23. It is hard to argue that it would be a travesty if boys on average returned at 21.75/22, would it?? Considering the upside (the boys own time in EY is not always so great/the shidduch crisis) it’s really a no brainer and many many R”Y know this.
“(the boys own time in EY is not always so great”
Chas V’Shalom. The Limud Torah in Eretz Hakodesh is on a higher lever than can be achieved here.
PLEASE stop putting this narishkeit and sheker in the mouths of the Roshe Yeshiva Shlita’s whom NEVER said anything of the like!
For the boys who are learning well to succumb to such peer pressure, yes, it would be tragic. As for the rest, let them stay chu”l.
Or maybe they would if there wasn’t such a herd mentality and some real chanoch l’naar.
Sorry, I’m going in circles again. Let’s save us some time.
AZ – age gap
Tzippi – chanoch l’naar
Repeat till moderator closes the thread.
Mezonos Maven: They have to me and they will to you if you only ask. Also, ask the boys themselves. Many (including very very good boys) will readily admit that their time in EY was not nearly as productive as their time before and after. This should be decided on a individual basis NOT doing what the “oilam” does.
AZ- 70 R”Y
Tzippi- ???
But I agree the boys that do well let them stay its the boys that would do better let and encourage them to go earlier/stay shorter etc.
Hm, AZ, do you mean to say that the Roshei Yeshiva are NOT for chanoch l’naar?
They say that we should encourage close in age shidduchim. They do not say, by any means necessary.
The reason I say that is because it comes back to that:
– it’s a boys’ market and they can make demands, even if demeaning (you said something along those lines). I say, we have to reeducate the boys if they can be so crude.
– you talk about bringing boys back earlier. I say why is it arbitrary, why is our system not geared to bringing the best out of each boy.
I have made it clear that I respect the gedolim and will take this kol korei very, very seriously. It’s just that so many of the auxiliary issues seem to have roots in the OTHER possible issues contributing to the shidduch crisis. I don’t think people should be talked down for bringing up those issues as well, especially when they are such fundamental issues, like the chinuch of our children.
I mean to say that you clearly are not happy with the present educatuonal system. You have decided that that is critical to the shidduch crisis. I am sure the R”Y regret not having consulted with you prior to signing the letter, but they respectfully disagree.
What the R”Y realize is that the best way to resolve the shidduch issue as well as so many of the issues you raise is by evening out the numbers. When it’s not a boys market they can’t make demands etc.
What does overhauling the entire educatuonal system have to do with the issue of the boys getting married and the girls getting left out…. Why do you choose the shidduch crisis as the place to grind you ax.
If you can show one SIGNIFICANT correlation between any of your points and how the boys get married (to girls) and many girls still say single – I will let up.
I am seriously sorry for hijacking the thread.
Let’s get back to basics. How can we ease the age gap? So far I’ve seen
1) Encourage close in age dating
2) Start the boys dating earlier
2a) Bring the boys back from E”Y earlier.
What other suggestions are there?
Now, I would suggest that if anyone wants to talk about anything other than the age gap as far as contributing to ameliorating the crisis, we start another thread.
And I too we be fascinated if anyone could crunch numbers in other ways, such as AZ suggested. I’m not the actuary type so that’s not my forte, but maybe others can contribute.
Tzippi: Much Appreciated
Next school
2000 27 years old 15 still single-98 graduates =15.3%
2001 26 yrs old 21-97 =21.6%
2002 25 yrs old 28-88=25%
2003 24 yrs old 29-104=37.5%
Totals for that school 93-387=24% (crazy!!!)
another school
2000 6-54=11.1%
2001 3-54=5.5%
2002 9-58 =15.51%
2003 8- 56 =14.3%
Totals for this school 26-222=11.7% better that the previous one but still unacceptable..
Other suggestions:
Best one by a long shot is altering slightly the the BMG “freezer”. Tu B’shvat boys can only date girls 21+. To date younger they must wait till Pesach. (perhaps out of town 20 year old girls should also be allowed) It’s the boys choice – wait or date close in age.
Close to 400 boys with a personal incentive to date close in age. Now that’s a effective, implementable idea that doesn’t cost a penny.
AZ:
Keep them numbas coming! We are all fascinated by numbas!!
Maybe change your name to NUMBAMONSTA!!!
You aren’t getting anywhere, it’s time to focus on writing gushing Letters to the Editor and paying the same editors for two page ads in the frum print where no one can argue.
AZ: How do the schools get accurate numbers for graduates?
What are the equivalent statistics for boys schools?
Mezonos Maven: The girls schools keep very accurate and up to date data on their alumni. The boys schools do not and therefore it is not easy to get accurate data from the HS. However post HS and EY yeshivos like BMG do have accurate data. In bmg boys that came (and started dating) 5 yrs ago (the equivalent of 24 yr old girls) are less than 2% single. Other post HS EY yeshivos have similar results althoug their data is not as up to date.
How about Bais Yaakov’s getting honest with their girls?
Namely, instruct the girls that they can’t all have the kollel fellows that you’ve been brainwashing them about. Tell the girls not to waste their precious short lives waiting for the knight in shining amour to come knocking on the door. Besides, they’ve already been claimed by the Yichus, Rosh Yeshivish and Money families.
Advise the girls that there are terrific yerei shomaim and talmedei chachomim who are not currently in Yeshiva but who would make great husbands and providers; they learn before shachris, and on the way to work, and on their lunch break, and on their way home from work, and before and after ma’ariv.
Tell the girls that these shidduchim are very noble and something that they will be proud of.
It took years of brainwashing to get into this mess and it will take a while to readjust to the way it used to be.
There goes the Shidduch Crises!
AZ, that last bit was fascinating. Don’t 20 y.o. ANYWHERE skew the numbers? Why does out of town get this perk? Aren’t there lots of in-town girls who are languishing? That’s what I hear, x number of girls on such and such in town blocks….
Tzippi: The argument for giving out of town this perk (not that is HAS to be that way) is that out of town is hit significantly harder than in town. (In a boys “market” given the choice of a couple of girls, a boy will most likely prefer in-town to out-of-town). Please remember, it is not a question of ALL or NOTHING (as you sometimes seem to argue). In addition if the out of town communities stand to benefit significantly they could use their collective influence to encourage BMG to make the change.
cherrybim: your argument is factually incorrect. The girls who are not looking for kollel guys are no better off that the girls who are i.e. the schools where the girls are less likely to pursue kollel guys do NOT have better percentages as your argument suggests.
from my class in yeshiva, there were 18 guys and 2 are still single(11%). I graduated in early 2000’s.
Justin2: if you have the time please collect data on the other classes from your yeshiva.
Please understand that comparing girls HS graduating 2001 and boys HS graduating 2001 is comparing apples and oranges. Girls HS 2001 are now 26 having been dating (aprox) 7 years. Boys HS 2001 age 26 (in right-wing HS) are dating 3-4 years (thus the equivalent of girls 22-23).
AZ:
I completely disagree with you. The best comparison is (say) 26 year old boys to 26 year old girls. Who cares “how long” they’ve been dating. They are both the same age NOW.
This is one of the places you are going wrong.
my yeshiva’s class of 2001 had 19 guys, and 3 are still single.
Mezonos Maven: I don’t think you begin to grasp the issue. There are definatly more single 20 year old boys than 20 year old girls because the boys at 20 haven’t even started dating. If you want to understand the age gap concept you have to realize that girls start dating at 19 and boys at 22. The fact that there are perhaps as many single 23 year old boys as 23 girls does not mean there is no crisis. It’s just sticking your head in the sand…..
If we are able to encourage the 23 year old boys to date the 23 year old girls we will make a huge dent. Similarly if we are able to encourage the 26 year old boys to date the 26 year old girls.
However, to say that having equal numbers of single 26 yr old boys to 26 old girls (don’t event think that’s true) means there is no problem is so off base…… How is it by the girls after after dating 6 yrs many are still single and the boys get married in a much shorter period of time.
Justin2: meaning they have been dating 3.5 years and 15% (3 boys) still left. That’s the equal of girls 22.5. They wish they were so lucky…. Let me know how many of of them are still around in a year and a half (5 yrs of dating).
Can someone tell me where these phony baloney statistics come from? I have ba”h seven daughters who have graduated and no school or organization has ever called to track or monitor their marriage status. I have also worked with statistics and numbers for just about my entire adult life and as I stated before, numbers can be manipulated to show just about anything. Oh, please spare me the tears this time.
AZ, I don’t want to harp on the out of town issue, but can you find a makor for this in the kol koreh?
And about the out of town to in town in general: is there a difference if the out of town girl picks up and moves out to the east coast? The objections that people have to out of towners won’t necessarily dissipate just because these girls have now been added to the suggested pool needed to ease the age gap. (And introducing these younger girls will still contribute to prolonging the crisis; I thought easing the age gap was THE be all and end all.)
Tzippi:
from Rav Shteinman: “May Hashem strengthen you to find all sorts of ????.”
However, I hate to burst your bubble but the close the age gap movement didn’t start with the kol korei and doesn’t end with the kol korei. The R”Y who are advising those involved, do not look in the kol korei for a mekor prior to attempting to implement the ideas.
Re: out of town. That was a suggestion that happens to be very smart and sensible but isn’t a make it or break it. Giving 20 year olds from out of town an advantage will NOT prolong the crisis. Yes easing the age gap is basically the be all and end all.
cherrybim: I’m sure if you contact the NASI organization they will tell you exactly who to speak in each school to get the info. Numbers can be manipulated (i guess if you say so). The obvious reality that there are far more older single girls than boys can not. If you don’t see that then i guess there not much to discuss. BYTW for someone who has worked with statistics and numbers their entire adult life, the Population x Age Gap theory should be obvious- as it is to Dr. Pepper- our in house math expert(s).
Tzippi:
In addition you are harping on a minor point and missing the brilliance of the BMG idea.
If BMG instituted that Tu B’shvat (freezer) boys can only date girls 21+. To date younger they must wait till Pesach. Then close to 400 boys a year will have a personal incentive to date close in age. Now that’s a effective, implementable idea that doesn’t cost a penny.
(the perk for the out of towners is a minor addendum. This suggestion is THE silver bullet in the crisis..)
AZ, for a few minutes I thought my head was gonna explode. By talking about the out of town girls, it sounded like you were saying there were reasons OTHER than the age gap for girls to not getting married easily, like their being out of town. If you read over every post of yours in this thread you may understand why one would think that if someone besides you brought it up, you read it and yell, Heresy.
But clearly I’m missing something.
AZ – However good your intentions are; they are a total waste because no one’s following the Kol Korei. When the RY 70 start to practice what they advocate, then you might have a chance; otherwise, this Kol Korei has as much clout as the Chasana Takana Kol Korei
cherrybim-
Can someone tell me where these phony baloney statistics come from? I have ba”h seven daughters who have graduated and no school or organization has ever called to track or monitor their marriage status. I have also worked with statistics and numbers for just about my entire adult life and as I stated before, numbers can be manipulated to show just about anything. Oh, please spare me the tears this time.
Numbers don’t lie, they are what they are. The way they are presented is what may trick people which is why I am specially trained to look out for those types of malicious “statistics”.
(Of course the person tallying the numbers can be lying but I don’t think that is the case here.)
I agree with AZ on the numbers just not necessarily on the cause or solution. (AZ holds that the age gap is the root of the problem while I still feel that it lies deeper.)
My wife has many sisters and while I don’t know if anyone from their high school calls my in-laws on a regular basis to see how many are still single I do know that the principle makes it his business to be at the weddings of as many of his students as possible. (There may also be a few representatives from each grade informing the school of any changes in any students’ status.)
While we were engaged my wife called her high school and asked for the current address of everyone in her grade (not that all of them were going to be invited) and the schools files were up to date.
To Cherrybim: I’ll say this again. If a gadol’s son or grandson marries a girl younger than the suggested range, that does NOT mean they aren’t following this. For all we know, the first few girls he dated WERE within range, and that’s all that can be expected. It is impossible to mandate MARRYING within the range. So I will continue to be dan lecaf zechus, as there is no reason not to, and a chiyuv to do so.
Dr. Pepper – “Numbers don’t lie, they are what they are. The way they are presented is what may trick people”
So they do lie.
“I do know that the principle makes it his business to be at the weddings of as many of his students as possible.”
This is a poor way of conducting a statistical survey and the results would be meaningless. In addition, school personnel come and go and many graduates do not keep ties with the school for many various reasons. To conduct a meaningful study the researcher must use accepted methodology and research standards.
Dr. Pepper: Thanks.
As for your statement
minimal, (ripping off leaves)
Cherrybim:
“Also, I showed you the reason to doubt the numbers that you provided.”
Regarindg JTA I have no idea what happened in a interview with the JTA or who they spoke to. What I do know is that they were considering writing a mishmash of an article on the shidduch crisis and NASI was advised that there was no benefit in being part of a article that makes a cholent of the issue.
As for the Kol Korei, you are free to feel whether it’s effective or not. Those that put the time into it felt it was worth the effort. If you think the goal was to establish a Takana, of course it won’t work. If the goal was to make a clear statement on the issue thus encouraging more close in age shidduchim then it can certainly be considered a effective letter. In addition it was a opportunity for individual R”Y to make a statement to their talmidim in public (and likely to be followed up in private) on the issue.
One question to you. Why the animosity on the issue. Have you personally been hurt by the close the age gap awareness.
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