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Squeak: Are you disagreeing with what the Roshei Yesvhiva Signed?? The letter was clearly about Closing the Age Gap…..
To the best of my knowledge I have espoused nothing other than figuring out ways to encourage close in age shidducim being that it is the primary cause(and we can get into petty discussion whether that means 51% or 95%) of the problem.
(my humble opinon is that the Roshei Yeshiva wouldn’t have put out such a letter focusing on age gap if they felt it was simply one of many causes and that allieviating the age gap wouldn’t help much…)
squeak – Sorry, I misconstrued your comment. Thanks for the clarification.
after reading the Funny Shiduchim Stories here, I think maybe a course in “social skills” or “dating skills” may be called for. It sounds as if many of the boys, and some of the girls could use a course on how to act respectfully with the opposite sex, while also putting your best foot forward. This way, many of the shidduchim that fail due to awkwardness or social gaffes by one or both of the participants, could be salvaged, and the costs of shadchanut could be brought down, and the success rate brought up.
ronrsr:
That would only be a minor minor help for the crisis. bottom line is the boys are somehow getting married to girls, without being polished et al….
they are. But who knows how much easier it would be if they had a bit of that polish. There’s an old yiddish proverb that says “if you’re charming, you don’t need to be pretty.”
A little bit of charm goes a long way, especially for the boys.
AZ: Even if you accept the age gap, there are certainly other areas that can be worked on in this inyan. You keep discounting everything else.
Joseph: Correct. Every thing else combined would help a tiny bit. AGE GAP would CHANGE the WHOLE picture IMMENSELY.
as the old saying goes
(paraphrased)
“One hack at the root is, worth many at the branches”
and it is eminently doable……
Anybody a Novi here?
you called?
cherrybim:
The gem say “Chachom Adif Mi’navi”. If chachomim (70 Roshei Yeshiva) recognize the source of a significant problem and make recommendations to correct it, I’m not sure why the hesitation to accept.
Clearly correcting the root of a problem it the logical way to solve a problem. That doesn’t require Nevuah
AZ, the problem is that there are many issues the gedolim have commented on, e.g. takanos for chasanos, and there has not been uniform compliance. Many people have reservations about this. It is one thing to SUGGEST that one should try to date within the age range. But to MANDATE marrying within the age range, i.e. ONLY considering shidduchim within the age range, gives many people pause. It is social engineering, and requires a level of unity and maybe even ruach hakodesh, if not outright nevuah. No one wants to be the guinea pig.
There have been other suggestions as to how to pull this off, e.g. have boys coming back from E”Y at an arbitrary cut off date, regardless of where they are in their learning (and what if they don’t want to start dating that early, anyway?). The buzz gives many people pause.
AZ-
I agree with you that the way to tackle the problem is to begin with the root of the problem but I disagree with you that the age gap is the root of the problem, I think it’s a byproduct.
There is an underlying reason why bochurim are marrying wives who are considerably younger than them. I think the place to begin is by asking chasanim why they didn’t choose a spouse closer in age.
Dr. Pepper – Can you elucidate why you believe chasanim choose younger spouses?
I am admittedly late to the conversation: but how did people meet and marry before the “crisis”? What has changed?
attitudes.
I can only speak from personal experience. My wife is actually very close to me in age (close enough to make AZ proud) but I did have dates who were over four years younger than me.
A little background first. I was a guinea pig at a new high school which was off to a good start. I was one of the first graduating classes and everyone in my class and above (to the best of my knowledge) is shomer Torah Umitzvos. A very unfortunate incident happened about 18 months after I graduated (and left) and the young Hanhallah, who were not prepared for an incident like this, took actions that made the situation much worse. The Yeshiva developed a horrible reputation from which they never recovered and eventually closed down because of it.
While dating I began to notice that the older the girl the bigger the chance was that they wouldn’t agree to go out with me because of the high school that I attended.
(They told the shadchan that all of their married friend are married to guys who went to “normal” high schools or that none of the other guys they went out with went to “strange” high schools. Some shadchanim asked me if they should tell the girl that while I was there the yeshiva had a respected reputation but I felt that if they are not making a decision based on where I was for the past six years, but where I was for the four years before that, than I’m not interested in them.)
Younger girls, on the other hand, who have fewer married friends and dated less people were not as likely to say no based on that reason. I gave up dating girls that were that much younger because I felt I couldn’t relate to them as well.
Again this was just my personal experience.
So what Dr Pepper is saying is that older girls compare potential guys to their friends husbands?
Dr. Pepper, in my time, a good quarter century ago, boys started dating at about 23, girls at 20 (2 years out of high school). There was presumed to be a similar level of maturity, sophistication, experience, what have you. People weren’t so focused on age. Or maybe my friends who set me up were all married to guys a few years older than they, I don’t know. All I know is, many of my friends and relatives (including older relatives) married guys 2 to 3+ years older than they.
telegrok:
“I am admittedly late to the conversation: but how did people meet and marry before the “crisis”? What has changed?”
With exceptions, I think it’s because more people adopted the “I’m better than you attitude”….so I deserve…. insisting on rich… well known….size 2’s…specific schools…. specific Shuls… the list goes on. This causes the less desirable girls to be passed over and the guys repeatedly look among the newer crop until they get all their needs met. Many 26, 27, 28 year old guys get dates with 19 and 20 year old girls.
Dr. Pepper – Thanks for sharing. I take from your experience, that the younger the girl (generally) the more pure the intentions. (And thus better to marry as soon as possible.)
DR. Pepper:
It seems like you do agree with the math, (quite a haskama from the math expert that you clearly are). The question you are addressing is the reason WHY boys (or if they do) prefer younger girls.
That being so, if you suggest that it is a unchangeable social fact and therefore it is a waste of time and energy to attempt to encourage more close in age shidduchim-so be it. I for one have come to realize that the stakes are high, way to high to simply give up because its to hard to change.
The Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva behind the movement to encourage more close in age shidduchim are banking on the idea that although there may be boys that will insist (for whatever reason) on only dating/marrying significantly younger girls; there are PLENTY of boys that would be and (the past two years have proven) are willing to date close in age. NO one is claiming that there should never be a 19 year old girls marrying a 23 year old boy. What is clearly needed is more- many more close in age shidduchim. The past couple of years have shown that simply raising awareness has changed many attidutes.
The next step is to institute some kind of MINOR structural change that would result in a scenario where boys and girls entered the dating pool slightly closer than what is occurring at present. If such was to occur besides the obvious mathmatical benefit, the specific social concern you raised would also be alleviated.
tzippi, All the fellows I know married around a good quarter century ago (your time fram), started dating much earlier – say at about 20 or 21 for the guys, and 18 or 19 for the girls. Not saying they all got married at that age – just started dating.
Seemed to work quite well. And didn’t hear all the talk about a shidduch crisis back then. In fact, it still works for those starting dating today at those younger ages.
Mezonos Maven:
Thank You.
Add to that the recent populatin explosion (B”H) and we clearly understand why this is going on in the relatively recent past.
Another School:
2000 (27 yrs old) 6 still single out of 46 graduates=13%
2001 (26 yrs old) 6-30=20%
2002 (25 yrs old) 3-21=14.28%
2003 (24 yrs old) 9-30=30%
Total of girls who have been dating between 5-8 Yrs and still unmarried
24-127=18.89%
Is there any way we can post our daughters’ school (maybe anonymously, through a mod) to get a profile?
NO. This data is being kept under the strictest confidence. School and girls names will not be disclosed to the public.
To AZ, but the data can be used by anonymous bloggers and commenters to inspire even more frantic desperation?
Tzippi: The facts are the facts. Hiding our head in the sand is NOT going to make it go away.
Joseph: I am quite friendly with the very special people involved with NASI – which is how I came to become familiar with the issue. (hope this doesn’t constitute personal information)
AZ – Neither hiding our heads in the sound, nor overshouting our opponents, will make it go away.
Didn’t know that posting accurate data is shouting. How does one shout in a CR anyway?
AZ: by standing on a soapbox talking about the same issue, which always goes in circles!
-someone who cares about the oilem too!
It’s NOT the CR oilem that I really care about – sorry jax. If you don’t like the topic feel free to ignore. Apparently there are many people who do care about the issue.
AZ, keep at it. May Hashem give you Koach. Every time you raise awareness of the dilemma suffered by Bnos Yisroel, leading to a Yeshua for them, as in Shadchanim thinking first for suitable girls for a guy, who are slightly older, and not letting the topic die down, you certainly get special additional S’char.
Those who choose to mock you, only serve to further your cause.
AZ – You are not going to change human psychology and physiology; so think of something else.
To cherrybim:
re: “AZ – You are not going to change human psychology and physiology….”.
Didn’t we fully adopt the rules and regulations of the Cheirem D’Rabeinu Gershon, a way more drastic move?
The one man ,one wife thingy?
One thing parents can do to help is to be honest with shadchanim.
A friend of mine called a shadchan and told her about her daughter. She’s overweight. She’s a bit different. She’s learning disabled.
The shadchan was thrilled. This was the first girl she heard about who wasn’t gorgeous and at the top of her class. “This one I’ll remember,” she told my friend.
I’m not sure if it was that shadchan who redt the shidduch or not, but it didn’t take long for my friend’s daughter to get married.
AZOI, from what I’ve heard about the cherem, it was clear that it wasn’t working and in the best interest of a strong Jewish home, on an individual home basis. Age gaps between spouses is NOT a risk factor for shalom bayis. Many people have strong marriages (raise your hands if you grew up in such a home; my parents were four years apart). On a COMMUNAL level, the numbers seem to be pointing to a problem for a significant minority of young women. Apples and oranges.
tzippi, in response to your apples and oranges, the status quo isnt working for MORE than just a small minority. How many people do you know with single daughters over age 25? There’s at least one in every family, and on every block. I believe Hashem wants us to put in major effort on their behalf.
AZOI.IS
Member
How many people do you know with single daughters over age 25? There’s at least one in every family, and on every block.
Weren’t you supposed to be the “facts and figures” sidekick?
Your comment is so ridiculous that even your supporters should have reason to doubt the veracity of your statistical claims.
cherrybim: The ribbono shel oilam expects us to do our best. The rest is up to him. Quitting on Klal yisroel isn’t an option.
Apparently 70 Roshei Yeshiva thought it’s a worthwhile endeavor. FYI progress has been made in the real world, every little bit counts. If the cr is behind the times – I really don’t care.
Tzippi: families with one or more older single daughters IS a risk factor for shalom bayis. Try speaking to some parents who are in that position and ask them about the ruach in their home.
Rav Shteinman puplicly stated that this is one of the greatest tragedys facing the jewish people today. I’ll take that as a call to action.
squeak, I’m no one’s sidekick, I have no idea who AZ is, other than a sincere Eved Hashem, promoting a desire of many Roshei Yeshiva.
My time spent at math/statistics takes a back seat to helping another Jew(ess) whenever possible.
azoi.is:
“there’s at least one in every family, and on every block.”
Every block maybe, every family is certainly an exaggeration unless you are referring to extended family like cousins in which case it is probably not that far off but I don’t know of anyone who has this kind of data.
WHEREAS, AZ is proudly enforcing Rav Shteinman’s ideas in the Coffee Room.
WHEREAS, AZ continues to dazzle with anonymous facts and figures of schools.
WHEREAS, AZ has definitively concluded the sole reason for the “Crisis” is AGE GAP with no other possible explanations.
WHEREAS, AZ has staunchly defended the “hard labor” of Shadchanim and is fighting for wages comparable to lawyers.
BE IT DECLARED on this 20th Day of October 2009 a day of honor for AZ.
Azoiis: I wrote, “significant minority”, not “insignificant minority.” As I said before, the gedolim have spoken and I will not belittle the problem.
However, I will take issue with distortions, exaggeration, and fear mongering.
Re the cherem: it was determined that marriage with two wives was not good for shalom bayis, hence the cherem. Az asserts that it is not good for shalom bayis to have older unmarried children, particularly daughters.
a) It is not INEVITABLE, or close to it.
b) It is also not good for shalom bayis to have financial problems. Ergo, we should consider abolishing kollel. (Just following the same logic.)
I’ll drink to that.
artchill – whereas you have decided to make fun of AZ, an ehrliche yungerman, be it declared that you have been malbin p’nai chavaro b’rabim.
Artchill: item number 3 and 4 are blatantly false.
The Roshei Yeshiva wrote Primary reason not sole reason,
I have proposed (fair) wages for their labor, I never proposed lawyers wages.
AZ – “cherrybim: The ribbono shel oilam expects us to do our best. The rest is up to him. Quitting on Klal yisroel isn’t an option.”
This is doing our best? This is fantasy.
For desperate times, you need desperate action and large shoulders. My suggestion is that we use the sort of Reverand Moon method of pairing single couples:
With the blessings of the g’dolim, all Jewish singles who agree will sign up to the program and frum experts will pair them up and we will have a massive chupa for tens of thousands. It will be the biggest simcha ever. If chas v’sholem some marriages don’t work out, these ex-couples will again go into the pool for the next choosing.
But we need to be prepared for the massive population explosion. Halavai.
Artchill: I re-read your post. Are you alleging that the school I posted is falsified?
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