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AZ, I TOTALLY disagree with your suggestion to pay shadchanim $$$ after only 3 dates. PERHAPS people should give some MODEST tangible thanks ACCORDING TO WHAT THEY CAN, such as flowers, a gift certificate. I say this not just because I can’t afford this but because it is just WRONG!
I wish I had more time to elaborate but I have to run now. Hopefully someone will carry this further who is not as RILED UP as I am right now.
I am trying my best to go along with this program, but please, if you are going to posit yourself as spokesman, don’t make such suggestions without clearing this by people who are willing to be NAMED!
I think every Yeshivah and Bais Yaakov ought to have one person on staff for working on Shidduchim for their graduates.
In the sixties and seventies Tora Vdaas had a Rabbi Rivlin A”H ( he later worked for R’ Moshe), who I am told worked on Shidduchim full time (my parents spoke of him all the time) . He was amazing. Girls’ parents went to him, and he worked tirelessly and didn’t stop until each girl became a Kallah, even though he was a Tora Vdaas employee. He was always available. We need devoted people like him on the scene. A couple of Rabbi Rivlins and we’d make a dent in the Shidduch crisis.
There should be mingling events for singles, and maybe once a couple meet and like each other they’ll realize that their whole list of requirements is unattainable; and they’ll get married!
Forget about professional shadchanim, I do not know one person where I live that got married by a pro shadchan. Guy sees girl, guy finds out about girl, guy sends a middleman to ask girl if interested, if yes guy calls girl and they go out. If they want to continue he calls her again,
I am talking about very religious people here. Its not flawless, its actually pretty complicated but at least its a little more realistic.
mybat – You hit the nail on the head. Your method incorporates shadchanis with reality and has passed the test of time; the current way hasn’t.
somehow all my daughter got married, not through shadchanim but through middle people that knew the guy and the girl and set them up, the firstand second one I just ask somebody if they could set them up. The third one one neighbor suggested my daughter to his mother , fourth one he saw her in shul and when I heard he was interested I called his mother, the fifth one his cousin saw my daughter in a restaurant and suggested her to him. the fifth one I really think he saw her in shul or he heard about her I am not sure but he aske one of my son in laws to set her, and BH I got very, very good sons in laws, you see its all from Hashem
mazca – “… you see its all from Hashem”
I have heard from my Rav that with shidduchin, unlike parnossah, no hishtadlus is necessary. We do it to calm our nerves that we’re doing something; but it would happen regardless.
I think some Hishtadlut can be done, for example, the girl should be dressed nicely, parents can keep their eyes open and if they see someone that they like for their child they. Should find a way to move the shidduch….
But its only minimal it really is all from Hashem.
Is it socially acceptable for a bachur that dated a girl and it didn’t work out to suggest her for a friend? I’m talking about more out-of town yeshiva circles, specifically with more shtark baalei tshuva/children of baalei tshuva people.
Sberger I don’t think anythings wrong with that as long as it done with good intentions.
sberger: It is very accepted EVEN by shtark yeshivish crowds. Many shidduchim happen like this when boys go into a chassuna in L.A. Many other methods besides for narrowing the “age gap” can also help ease the “crisis”. But, don’t tell this to AZ.
tzippi:
You have every right to be disgusted by the new AZ brainstorm proposal. It boils down to one word, UNETHICAL.
A comparable profession to shadchan is headhunter. A headhunter goes to a company and is contracted to find the best employee for the open position. The headhunter prescreens the candidate, knows their backgrounds, and helps move the hiring process along. IF the company is satisfied and hires the candidate, the headhunter gets paid his contract. If the company doesn’t hire the candidate the headhunter flew in from Australia, the headhunter lost the gamble and gets paid ZERO. It is entirely UNETHICAL of a headhunter to charge a fee to the candidate to be set up for an interview, or to even charge for succesful placement.
Shadchanus in halacha is meant as a sign of hakaras hatov, not a fee for services rendered. A shadchan is doing avodas hakodesh and is not meant to be a dating service or worse.
Next school:
2000 (27 years old- dating 8 years) 10 single -67 graduates = 14.9%
2001 (26 yrs old-dating 7 years) 17-72 23.6%
2002 (25 yrs old-dating 6 years) 21-85 24.7%
2003 (24 yrs old-dating 5 years) 14-76= 18.4% (all things considered for this school this year is actually a good percentage as sad as is sounds…..)
artchill,
WADR, it is most certainly not unethical for a headhunter to charge the candidate for his/her professional services. It is mererly uncompetitive to do so, given that virtually all headhunters get paid by the employer. The employer is not going to pay until the position is filled, so payment for failure would have to come from the candidate. If you tried that, all your candidates would go to other headhunters.
I do not want to detract from your argument re shadchanim, which is avodas kodesh and Hashem will pay for the hishtadlus. Only your comparison to headhunters was invalid.
artchill – just curious, regarding your moshol of a headhunter… headhunters – to the best of my knowledge – make a lot more per “shidduch” than a shadchan. Additionally, while there’s no shortage of headhunters, people seem to feel that there aren’t enough shadchonim redding their daughters shidduchim. So, perhaps the headhunter isn’t a good example. As you wrote, while Shadchanus in halacha is meant as a sign of hakaras hatov, not a fee for services rendered, still – there’s no reason why that hakaras hatov can’t be expressed even if the shidduch didn’t work. We need more shadchonim. Pay them for their efforts!!
Thanks Squek:
My proposal with paying shadchanim has nothing to do with age gap at all simply because what goes on is just not right.
Artchill: I have no doubt that you are a expert in halacha however numerous Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim who are familiar with the abuse shadcahnim suffered have encouraged changing the system. It’s really not my issue and I have no intention of pushing this agenda……..
AZ:
I LOVE numbers.
Please post more.
Kindly make some charts, diagrams, and spider maps. The more visual you make it, the more people understand it.
Queen Hilnee also thought she could solve the shidduch “crisis”. It didn’t turn out so pretty. Raising awareness that Hashem is mezaveg zevugim will help solve the problem.
Again my contention is the AGEd GrAPe issue. Too many people become drunk with hyped up statistics and fall in for bottom-of-the-barrel shidduchim/families.
But, we can agree to disagree!!
cholentkugelkishke:
What’s wrong with flowers, gift basket, or gift cards? There are plenty shadchanim too, it’s just many parents only want “NameBrand” Shadchanim. So they ignore good shidduch ideas simply because they don’t like the shadchan.
Artchill: How can you love numbers of hundreds and hundreds of girls in their upper 20’s dating 7-8 years and STILL not married. You can be cute and and disagree, but please feel for the girls….
artchill – flowers, gift basket, or gift cards? For someone who just spent 20 hours working on your behalf? I agree that it’s certainly a nice gesture, but we want to encourage more people to become shadchonim. “NameBrand” Shadchanim started out as regular people who developed into what they are today. By giving a shadchan a check after he just spent so much time working for you – he’ll try again. It makes sense. It’s a good investment. And it’s the right thing to do.
Artchill:
“Raising awareness that Hashem is mezaveg zevugim will help solve the problem.”
Perhaps you didn’t see the letter from 70 Roshei Yeshiva in the US and Rav Shteiman and Rav Scheinberg. They “respectfully” disagree with your approach how to alleviate the situation.
To AZ: Ask some of these gedolim if they think we should downplay Hashem’s role as being mezaveg zivugim. I always thought that when hishtadlus was required, good old fashioned bitachon was the essential tavlin.
P.S. To be dan lekaf zechus, I remember hearing that even apikorsus can be used for the good. When doing chesed for another person, one has to put forth enormous efforts, as if ch”v Hashem wouldn’t help – you can’t be a baal bitachon on someone else’s cheshbon.
But even so, it’s AS IF. We also have to keep Hashem’s role in it. I have to check the letter again. I can’t believe it doesn’t say something like that somewhere.
artchill: can you be more specific about the “fallout” you keep on alluding to, and how many cases you’ve actually seen etc.?
Do you deny that there are so many terrific girls aged 28+ who can barely get dates?
AZ:
I already have said, I feel terrible for the girls. Especially those who were snookered and fell for the “crisis” mentality. The poor girls who settled, who took miserable abusive spouses, who settled for families more appropriate for the…. Girls who are trapped in a hamster wheel of abuse with nowhere to turn. Some of those very signatures you are touting simply wipe their hands from disasterous marriages.
That is why:
For all girls, parents of girls, advisors of girls etc. Please DO NOT feel pressured to settle and fall for the glitz and glamor three page newspaper spreads about a “Crisis”. Unless one of the 70 signatories of the AGE GAP campaign guarantees (Nafsho keshurah benafsho) to personally turn over heaven and earth to protect you from a bottom-of-the-barrel spouse/family, DON’T DO IT. Please, I beg of you, don’t throw away your life, HAVE EMUNAH IN HASHEM.
Tzippi: The Ribbono Shel Olam is the Kol Yachol there is nothing to discuss. Sitting on our hands and saying let him solve our self created problem is a cop out-Sorry. The letter actuallly says the “in his great kindness it has recently been revealed that the main cause of the crisis is age gap”
Shaindel: No one seems to be debating that it is the girls having the difficulty. May I humbly ask WHO is the shadchan for all the boys. Yes shadchanim are abused etc. etc. BUT the dearth of shadchanim is NOT a major factor in the shidduch crisis.
artchill: you write
“poor girls settled and took miserable spouses who settled for families more appropriate for the…. Girls who are trapped in a hamster wheel of abuse with nowhere to turn.”
Please let us know on what basis you make claims that it the last year and half to two years (that’s how long age gap awareness has been going on)this has happened because “they fell for the crisis mentality”.
The letters published in the newspaper tell a different story…
Please don’t make things up…….
The whole shadchan system is obviously flawed. Maybe there’s a different approach.
Just out of curiosity, what’s considered a bottom of the barrel boy, girl or family?
B”H I chapped where Artchill is coming from. 8 months ago he saw a article from Rabbi Horowitz (see cr from then) regarding divorce rates and artchill decided that encouraging close in age shidduchim ruining marriages….
Interesting research……
Shaindel: Any way you slice it the boys are by and large getting married to girls. If more boys were the type you suggest than the girls looking for kollel types would be stuck. Does it really make a difference if the girls who is 30 and single is this type or that type. Shouldn’t the communities goal be to figure out how to enable ALL of acheinu bnos yisroel to get married.
It seems like you are no longer discussing the shidduch crisis i.e. why are so many girls single; and you are no onto a totally different (albeit valid) discussion as to the kollel/parnasah discusiion. These are two SEPARATE discussions that unfortunately many people become confuse.
If the boys are getting married and they are marrying girls then your point is NOT related to why so many more girls than boys are remaining single.
Somehow or another the boys who you claim “don’t seem to get their act together” are finding (plenty of) girls to marry. It might not be the girls in your crowd, but the shidduch crisis isn’t about this crowd or that crowd. WHY can’t we figure out a way to enable every girl to get married.
Because before a girl goes out with a guy, her family investigates everthing. From who were his teachers in kindergarten, who his friends were in 3rd grade, what grade he got on a test in 9th grade, what type of families his siblings married, what he ate for breakfast on Tuesday, what type of toothpaste he uses, etc (I think you get the point)
If something doesn’t convince you from the list, they’ll move on to the next shidduch. We have to realize that there is no perfection, thinking and expecting to find it can end up being fruitless.
artchill, I’m curious as to how many people you know who are in an abusive message directly as a result of the age gap awareness. As far as I know, people have always been getting into abusive marriages.
If, in fact, people are settling as a result of the crisis, that should be dealt with also, but the crisis shouldn’t be ignored.
You have realize that even without the age-gap awareness, girls were becoming desperate. Any girl in shidduchim, or anyone who knows girls in shidduchim doesn’t have to be a genious to see that something is very wrong for girls. A few years ago, I heard of an increase in broken engagements, supposedly because people rushed into engagements out of desperation. This was before the “hamon am” was made aware of the age gap.
I’d like to bring up an issue that I believe only one other person alluded to regarding shidduchim. I have dealt with shidduchim as an amateur shadchan, a I can say that it is not easy to get people to even go out on a date, let alone make a real shidduch. The reason? People have such a long laundry list of “must have”s for a potential mate that they turn down suggestions flat even if the person being suggested has a majority of the person’s requirements!
People are unrealistic about what they want, and no one will be the “perfect” one, because no one is perfect! People need to be more open to dating people who might not be perfect on paper, but may very well be great potential spouse. I think this is preventing a lot of dates from happening, which in turn is preventing shidduchim from being made.
Of course, there are many other factors, and it is a complicated matter altogether, so we should not pretend it is one dimensional.
NY Mom – From what you say, it doesn’t sound like these people are that desperate to get married; same thing applies to the so called Age Gap theory.
artchill – please provide some examples of bad marriages that have come about due to the AGE GAP.
NASI has raised awareness that there’s a numbers problem. They have suggested shadchonim focusing on redding close in age shidduchim. Today, the mother of a 24 year old boy will be more open to hear the suggestion of a 24 (or even 25) year old girl.
If you have real info as to how this has caused bad marriages – please share that info.
NY Mom:
One question for you. How are all the boys getting married (to girls????
They ARE saying YES (just perhaps not to your suggestions……)
AZ: There is not a doubt that the boys in the Litvish communities have more offers and options than girls. That alone makes it easier for them to pick and choose.
However, are you aware that in the Chasidishe oilam it is just the opposite? It is harder for the boys to find than for the girls! Just ask any Chasidishe friend regarding this. That is because the boys and girls do not have age gaps. They both marry at 18 so the population issues are not a factor. They also have a completely different process when it comes to making shidduchim for their children. The factors are the boys learning, the support, etc. I might not be giving the full picture as to the whys, but the fact is that the girls in the Chasidishe community have the upper hand in shidduchim.
Cherrbim: If you could hear some of the ridiculous reasons to turn down a reasonable offer, you could cry! For instance, parents have said “no” to a girl, just based on the fact that she went to a certain high school. Her family, her middos, her intelligence, her beauty, her sincerity = 0. Just because she went to one BY instead of another!
Yes, some of them are desperate, and some of the parents are desperate, but still unwilling to be open to going out with someone who is reasonable but not perfect.
I am not negating the age gap idea, but I am saying it is not the only reason. Again, it is multi-dimensional.
NY Mom, I’m in agreement with what you say, and find that most of my suggestions that didn’t get off the ground were due to girls’ parents not being well known enough- they heard nothing negative other than “no one knows them”.
NY MOM: you hit the nail on the head
Litvishe have a age gap problem Chasidishe do not. It’s about time the world started gettig this….
In truth the chasidim have a slight reverse problem (more boys in the dating pool than girls) which is why the boys have difficulty although nowhere near the problems the Litvishe girlshave…..
THIS is the reasong why the Litvishe boys can be picky, demand money, looks, yichis etc etc AND get away with it.
If we as a community want to change these factors then CLOSE THE AGE GAP. The boys will no longer have the mighty upper hand they have now and things will be where they should be…
AZ: So why aren’t you promoting the Chasidishe shidduch model for Litvaks, either in conjunction with or instead of what you are doing? I don’t think your solution is any less radical than copying what the Chasidim are already doing.
If there was a realistic chance that Litvishe boys would start dating at 19 years old we could talk about it. However that isn’t likely to happen in my or you lifetime for various reasons…. starting with the fact that the Roshei Yeshiva/Daas Torah don’t think it’s a good idea.
To encourage the boys to date slightly earlier, perhaps return from EY slightly earlier-Yeah that’s realistic and will probably start happening….
I am on the bandwagon of promoting what can and is realistic to be achieved (and only that which is endorsed by leading Roshei Yeshiva).
Joseph – real problems cannot be solved by narrow-mindedness.
Joseph, of course it’s less radical. Ask anyone of marriagable age who grew up with the litvish mindset what they would prefer – to marriage someone close to their age, or to have an “arranged” chassidish shidduch.
AZ – Please name which Roshei Yeshivos are on the record opposing the Chasidishe model. I know of none.
Also please name which Roshei Yeshivos support having the boys return home from Eretz Yisroel any earlier. I know none as well. That is your agenda, not theirs.
squeak – The Chasidishe shidduch model, as time tested, is hardly narrow-minded and apparently works much better.
rebetzin – I can’t argue about your point on the “mindset.”
Squek: please clarify. I wouldn’t think that you are accusing the 70 Roshei Yeshiva of narrow-mindedness.
Rebbetzin: Arranged marriages (not that it is happening any time soon) wouldn’t help the litvishe in the slightest – unless they are close in age. The reason why chasidishe girls don’t have a problem has nothing to do with dating STYLES- It has to do with dating AGES.
I have not and will not name Roshei Yeshiva by name in this forum.
There are many many roshei yeshiva on record who do not think litvishe boys should date at 19 and you know that as well as I do.
As for returning from EY earlier – no way I can prove it until it happens. Suffice it to that many many of the Roshei Yeshiva who signed the letter are very much on board with that idea as well. The implementation of it will not be done by putting letters in the paper – but slowly and surely as Roshei Yeshiva talk to their individual talmidim.
The narrow-mindedness I am referring to is that of assuming that the entire problem can be solved without considering more than one variable.
I have discussed this before, at length. You know this.
I have nothing negative to say about the Chassidishe shidduch model. But I would be against an all-out kol korei insisting that everyone adopt the Chassidishe model in order to solve a shidduch crisis. If our leaders say that this derech is better than our current one, then fine – but to say that their derech will solve the problems, no.
AZ – you too, know my position. The narrow-mindedness I refer to is what you are espousing. We have debated this ad-nauseum here in the CR.
I hope you enjoy the human experiments that you are so excited about – but a poorly defined problem usually does not lead you to the correct solution.
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