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Do you know the difference between Yiddish clothing and Goyish clothing? It has nothing to do with who made, it has to do with who wears it.
Goyish music is a physical fact. Watch someone listen to it for a few minutes and see the inspired behavior. It is physical. The difference can be measured. And if you hold yourself back from acting out the instinct it instills it is still there.
Like wine, music can be Mesameach in a holy way. And like wine, take it with without Cheshbon and there is nothing further from holy.
PBA: I believe R’ Moshe has a T’shuvah like that, where he says Kol Isha of a P’nuya is Muttar. Or maybe that’s a Hava Amina and he backs out of it out of respect for the Mishnah B’rurah? I don’t remember. (I think we assume the earliest age we need to worry about there being a Mi’ut Hamatzui of girls hitting puberty is 9 or 10.)
WIY: That’s ridiculous. People come up with similar musical compositions all the time.
Sam2
Vaguely similar is not the same at all. But either way yes I believe that the one who comes from a spiritually negative person will have a negative impact on your soul.
WIY: I think that’s patently ridiculous. Does eating a recipe made by a spiritually negative person have a negative impact on you?
And even if you’re right (which I’m not agreeing to in the slightest), you need to prove that it’s the composer that matters. Maybe it’s just the person playing it. Which isn’t Shayach to a recording. You need to bring a Makor for your general concept and that this spiritual P’gam stays in the composition forever.
jbaldy22 – True, the music must be specifically for a”z. The Sha’arei Teshuvah (?) points that out too.
The Mishneh Berurah’s conditions for kol isha are exactly as I recorded them, if I’m not mistaken. Go take a look in 75:17.
wasn’t disagreeing with you about the kol isha point in the m”b. Was just pointing out that it would appear that the bach argues. will have to look it up either way.
Sam, did you ever take a course in music appreciation?
DY: No. Have you? What don’t I know here?
What don’t I know here?
The emotional effect that different specific types of music can have on a person. And that it’s a somewhat objective chochmah.
It’s poshut that a talented artist can compose or even play music that can make one feel happy, sad, hefker, inspired to teshuvah, rebellious, lewd, and many more.
All without any lyrics.
You’re right that an immoral composer can write uplifting music, it’s just that they often simply express themselves, including and especially regarding their points of spiritual weakness.
DY: Right. That makes perfect sense. That’s what I thought. It’s not what WIY was saying though. He was saying that it’s inherent–music written by a bad person is inherently spiritually harmful.
WIY: I just remembered, I’m pretty sure that R’ Matisyahu Salomon says explicitly not like you in the Matnas Chaim on Purim.
Sam, you wrote earlier, “Spiritually uplifting” is entirely subjective. This, and the implication that spiritually harmful would also be entirely subjective, is what I am disagreeing with you about. These qualities can be inherent in the music.
I also suspect that WIY meant that although we are not sensitive enough to feel the negativity in music when it’s more subtle, we should be choshesh for it when the source is impure.
Here it is. I didn’t look at it yet http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/romantic-songs
I wouldn’t care for their “spiritually upliftng” but that’s not what Chopin’s beauty is. These classical composers were not putting the repulsive element in their music. They specifically set out to write intellectual music. Just as wild music makes you wild, deep music, if listened to with more attention than backround music, has a normalizing effect.
Sam, I never ever heard of two people writing the same composition (besides if they both cheated and gave in the same plagarized piece in college). Sure you can find five notes that match, but not a composition. Not even a section.
I wouldn’t care for their “spiritually upliftng” but that’s not what Chopin’s beauty is. These classical composers were not putting the repulsive element in their music. They specifically set out to write intellectual music. Just as wild music makes you wild, deep music, if listened to with more attention than backround music, has a normalizing effect.
Sam, I never ever heard of two people writing the same composition (besides if they both cheated and gave in the same plagarized piece in college). Sure you can find five notes that match, but not a composition. Not even a section.
HaLeiVi: Of course not. I was giving an example to prove my point.
DY: Maybe it’s not entirely subjective, but there are levels of subjectivity. Some of the most inspiring songs from my childhood are probably not things that others would be inspired by (I still draw inspiration from singing a song from the Little Mermaid to myself). There might be some objectivity, sure. But there’s a lot of subjectivity in there as well.
”eating a recipe made by a spiritually negative person”
Like a kosher dish prepared by a non-Jew vs a Jew?
Sam, glad to see you coming around to my way of thinking. 🙂
SaysMe, ”eating a recipe made by a spiritually negative person”
Like a kosher dish prepared by a non-Jew vs a Jew?
No, I think he meant the recipe, not the actual food.
Inspired as in, you feel like saying Nakdishach or you like it very much?
HaLeiVi: Inspired as in the beauty of a song makes someone want to better themself. And, for a Frum Jew, bettering oneself means learning more and doing more Mitzvos, etc.
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