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“Charlie, the professor who got tenure and then had an operation to alter his gender. “
Oh, that case! That was on a different campus so I’m not familiar with the issues, but it is a fact that YU has always hired non-frum and non-Jewish faculty for secular subjects. One reason is that so few frum Jews get PhDs. I once met someone who back in the 1930s was hired instantly one morning by Rabbi Dr. Revel as soon as the Rabbi saw that he had the markings from his tefillin straps on his arm. If more frum Jews would get PhDs we could hire more frum faculty, but at the moment we can’t even get non-Jewish Americans to pursue doctoral study.
SJS,
Betty Friedan certainly has a place in Olam Ha-Bah; by empowering kollel wives to work and be fairly compensated she may be personally responsible for more full time Torah study than any other Jew in American history.
Betty Friedan was actually rather conservative (small “c”). She was famous for opposing the emphasis of much of the feminist movement on Lesbian rights, and while she was pro-choice she also disagreed with what she considered an overemphasis on abortion and thought that women should not be discouraged from having children.
charlie:
Ok, firstly, I put little meaning on senator’s signing AIPAC’s “pledge of allegiance”, since that is really what they are about.
I am surprised that you debate that conservatives are more supporting of Israel’s policies. All the conservative talk shows, which I’m sure you abhor, are the first to defend Israel when it comes under international condemnation.
When Israel boarded the ship several months ago, the entire world was against them. The media painted it in the worst light, burying all the exonerating details. Did Obama stand up and say, “this is absurd, they are enforcing a neccesary blockade, in a legal way, and were merely defending themselves against lethal attacks to their bodies”? No. Did Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannitty, Mark Levin, Etc.. say that? Yes.
Did every left wing academic denounce Israel for it? Yes.
Did every right wing academic defend Israel? What’s a right wing academic.
Really. Be liberal, support the health care bill if you like. You don’t need to believe in every part of liberalism to accept most of it. But recognize that liberalism and anti-israeli sentiment are intertwined.
Sodomy was totally cleared in 2003, but the breakdown started in the 60’s or 70’s. The 2003 ruling was really just the nail in the coffin.
Correct, the downward spiral has been long in coming.
SJS in NYC- “A gay marriage has a lot less of an affect on society than an Orthodox Jew. Orthodox Jews need many dispensations to practice religion. A gay couple is just asking for the right of a contract. It does NOT infringe on your rights. They aren’t asking for religious leaders to perform any ceremonies.”
First of all, as far as child support -No, I don’t believe I should have to support children who are being pushed of the Derech of Hashem. Second of all, no one in American society has ever given me a dispensation to practice my religion. As a matter of fact, I was basically discriminated against- in a whole industry by refusing to work on Shabbos. This discrimination was upheld by the revered Supreme Court. Also, you can’t be a frum Jew and agree with Gay rights. See the previous page what Chazal said about Gay marriage. You show how some MO’s aren’t frum Jews. You have to put the Torah’s agenda before your liberal philosophy, not vice-versa!
Listen to the Rosh. (Rosh Limbaugh)
Wow Heath, calling me an apikorus? And a liberal? I’m not sure which is more offensive LOL.
If you were discriminated against by a whole industry, I would assume that its an industry that requires work on Friday nights or Saturdays and making reasonable accomodations is not feasible. I am interested to hear what industry this was. Most industries can accomodate frum Jews.
I can’t imagine a person wouldn’t want to help support their children. As their biological parent, you don’t think you have responsibility to feed, cloth, shelter and educate them? Even if they are OTD, wouldn’t a positive relationship with their father provide a path Judaism?
Every parent (barring a mental handicap that makes it impossible or abuse) should be involved in raising and paying for their children. Your attitude about this is NOT the Jewish one.
Now back to gay marriage – I am not pro-gay marriage. I am anti-discrimination. They are asking for contractual rights, especially because they are being discriminated against. The Torah calls specific acts of homosexuality forbidden. Really, what you should be rallying against is getting sodomy laws reinforced.
SJS -“I can’t imagine a person wouldn’t want to help support their children. As their biological parent, you don’t think you have responsibility to feed, cloth, shelter and educate them?”
Like you said “educate”, if the Court doesn’t allow me to give my kids a Jewish education, I shouldn’t have the responsibility of supporting them.
The companies could have accomodated me, just they claimed it was too hard, but the only thing they were able to prove was that they needed Sat. workers!
As far as Gay marriage, that is your mistake, they aren’t allowed to have contractual rights along with not doing their Toeiva. Hashem gets so angry, when they have have contractual rights, to bring destruction to the whole world. Is that what you want???
Heath, you are obligated by halacha to give them a Jewish education. That doesn’t mean a Yeshiva education. That means you should apply for joint custody and whenever you are granted time with them, infuse them with chinuch. And chinuch doesn’t mean necessarily sitting a learning inside – it could mean anything from basics like Jewish thought/philosophy to how to make a bracha.
And yes, you are obligated to feed your children. L’halacha. Why would you want them to starve??
Reasonable accomodation doesn’t mean having to overturn everything to accomodate you if they can. It means reasonable. Like my friend who trades her saturday shifts with a Catholic woman for her sunday shifts. She gets Shabbos off, her coworker gets Sunday off. It works well for each of them.
As to two men – they can’t make a legal contract? How many business men do you know? How is a marriage contract (in American law) really different from a business contract?
“And yes, you are obligated to feed your children. L’halacha.”
Only until age 7 or 13 (I forget which.)
SJS:
I do not understand your contention. Without any statutory language (like discrimination and equal rights), please explain why Popa_bar_abba, if he were a legislator, would be a mean jerk if he did not allow gay marriage.
Assume Senator Popa has decided that homosexual behavior is immoral, and that public policy is served by homosexual marriage not being allowed.
Popa does not think Popa is a mean jerk. Popa is well acquainted with mean jerks and is well able to distinguish them.
SJS –
“Heath, you are obligated by halacha to give them a Jewish education. That doesn’t mean a Yeshiva education. That means you should apply for joint custody and whenever you are granted time with them, infuse them with chinuch. And chinuch doesn’t mean necessarily sitting a learning inside – it could mean anything from basics like Jewish thought/philosophy to how to make a bracha.”
True, but if the Court doesn’t let me (they impinge on my rights)give them the type of chinuch I want, then I shouldn’t be obligated to pay child support. You seem to have no problem when goyim step all over my religious rights, as long as they don’t step on the rights of Gays.
“And yes, you are obligated to feed your children. L’halacha. Why would you want them to starve??”
They wouldn’t starve! Stop with trying to play on people’s emotions!
“Reasonable accomodation doesn’t mean having to overturn everything to accomodate you if they can. It means reasonable. Like my friend who trades her saturday shifts with a Catholic woman for her sunday shifts. She gets Shabbos off, her coworker gets Sunday off. It works well for each of them.”
I know the law quite well. So how did your friend communicate with her coworker before she was hired to work out the switch? Telopathy?
“As to two men – they can’t make a legal contract? How many business men do you know? How is a marriage contract (in American law) really different from a business contract?”
Don’t confuse the issue! The problem isn’t the contract. The problem is- (if you would have read the previous page,) that Hashem doesn’t take retribution on these people until they add insult to injury. Once they top off their Toieva lifestyle with official marriage, then Hashem says enough is enough -time to destroy them and their enablers!
“FWIW, I always vote based on the candidate and not based on the party.”
How about voting for who das torah tells you to vote for?
Popa, as a Jew, you ask for freedoms. You ask that people allow you to live your life as you believe possible. You ask society to not discriminate against you when you apply for a job. Based on a life choice that you make (yes, being an Orthodox Jew is a choice, one we believe we are required to follow but the general population doesn’t).
When you ask for freedom, you should make sure that you aren’t being an obstacle to other people’s freedoms.
Denying two people legal rights of partnership solely based on their gender should be illegal. Whether or not I think its immoral.
We don’t legislate morality – if we did, we would force veganism on everyone because PETA says so.
Remember – allow gay marriage is NOT saying that the acts forbidden in the Torah are ok. Its saying that two men or two women can create a contract that affords them the rights of inheritence, the right of acting as next of kin in terms of medical issues etc. Its just a legal contract.
My preference is actually for government to get out of the marriage business. But that’s a different story.
Heath, I feel so bad for your children. If that’s your attitude about them, then the courts are probably right for giving your ex-wife custody. A father doesn’t want to support his children? Are your kids just the sum total of how many mitzvos they do?
I’m not sure your arrangement during your divorce or what your ex-wife wants. But the non-custodial parent is responsible to contribute to the upbringing of their children (man or woman).
As to my friend – they knew that they could reasonably accomodate her. If she hadn’t switched with the Catholic woman, she could have switched with someone else. People often switch days where she works, so they could reasonably guarantee her the right to switch. Again, I don’t know what industry you are in.
Heath, I feel so bad for your children. If that’s your attitude about them, then the courts are probably right for giving your ex-wife custody. A father doesn’t want to support his children? Are your kids just the sum total of how many mitzvos they do?
I’m not sure your arrangement during your divorce or what your ex-wife wants. But the non-custodial parent is responsible to contribute to the upbringing of their children (man or woman).
As to my friend – they knew that they could reasonably accomodate her. If she hadn’t switched with the Catholic woman, she could have switched with someone else. People often switch days where she works, so they could reasonably guarantee her the right to switch. Again, I don’t know what industry you are in.
What I don’t understand is why people think legal marriage means much. It certainly doesn’t matter in a Jewish manner. You can be Jewishly married and not legally married and vice versa.
A gay marriage really doesn’t change anything.
SJS:
A. I ask for freedoms, not as a jew, as a person.
B. My asking for freedoms always affects other people’s freedom, but it doesn’t affect gay marriage.
C. Society does legislate morality. We don’t listen to PETA because we think they are crazy. However, it is illegal to have dogfights and cockfights, because we think it is immoral. Also gay marriage.
D. I find your nitpicking about the marriage not being against halacha ridiculous. Besides, I am not trying to impose my religion, only my morals. Gay marriage is against my morals, as well as the morals of most Americans.
But still, what is the answer to my question: How am I a mean jerk for opposing gay marriage, believing as I do that it is immoral and contrary to public policy interests?
Without using the word discrimination please, the word has lost all meaning. Tell me in plain english how I am mean.
SJS -All you do is post, but you don’t read anyone’s comments. Who said they gave her custody, actually we have joint custody. Also, who said I don’t want to support my children? I said if the Goyishe Courts impinge on my religious rights -they shouldn’t force me to pay child support. What happenned to my rights or freedom? Are you one of those who believe that anyone who practices religion shouldn’t have any rights, only people who are atheists deserve rights? You sound like my ex-wife.
How did your friend’s company know that at the time of hiring? They couldn’t; so they hired her and then let her look around for someone to switch with. The company is required to try; if they don’t that’s illegal discrimination.
” You ask society to not discriminate against you when you apply for a job.”
I ask, but they do it anyway.
“Denying two people legal rights of partnership solely based on their gender should be illegal. Whether or not I think its immoral.
We don’t legislate morality – if we did, we would force veganism on everyone because PETA says so.”
I’m assuming that one follows the other -that it should be illegal because we don’t legislate morality. I tried to give you an argument before that it makes a difference to the survival of the world, but I guess that argument can only be accepted by believers. So even if you don’t believe in Hashem & Torah, there is a such a thing as legislating morality. You obviously have never taken a philosophy course in college. If you would have you would have learned -most societies base their laws on morality. To give but one example from the book -Eskimos believe in infantcide. They think that they should do it, but we Americans outlawed it because we have different moral philosophies than them. Also, your proof from PETA, just goes to show how corrupt the liberal mind set is. Who says it’s immoral to kill and eat animals? Most Americans believe it’s moral and just, and have believed this since the beginning of the exsistence of the USA.
“A gay marriage really doesn’t change anything.”
For me, who believes in the word of Chazal, that was quoted previously, it changes the whole world. We drop down to a new level of Tumah. This level can bring about the destruction of the whole world. Oh, but excuse me, this isn’t as important as Gay people’s rights!
OK Popa. As a person, you ask for freedoms. Why should you deny two people a contract together? Is there anything immoral about two men signing a contract together?
Marriage in the US is a contract that affords two people certain basic rights – inheritence laws, burial laws, recieving SS/disability, often healthcare through employers, not having to testify against your spouse….plus a lot more.
Why do we decide to limit these benefits to a man and a woman? Why can’t two men have a legal contract? That is all “marriage” is. Well, besides for a fancy party that can help stimulate the economy.
Would you want to limit interracial marriage? Or interfaith marriage?
The American system of law agrees that there is nothing wrong with killing animals as long as you do so humanely. That’s why cockfights are illegal. Its only PETA who thinks animals are equal or greater to humans. And they have the right to not eat animals. Imagine if their morality was forced on the rest of us! No one is asking you to contribute to a gay marriage.
Health, you may be frustrated, but you seem to try to attack me. How about keeping this nice?
Now as to custody – again, I don’t know your specific situation, so I’m going by small bits that you are telling me. I assumed your wife had primary custody based on what you posted. I don’t know how you came to the conclusion on where to educate your children. I don’t know your court case. But I still can’t imagine that any father would not want to help his children, especially if their mother was raising them in less ideal conditions. What is more likely to make/keep a kid frum? Seeing his mother upset because his father isn’t paying child support and life is hard? Or a mother who speaks favorably about her ex-husband still supporting his children? I know people in both situations and the former doesn’t work out well for the children. The latter does.
No, I don’t believe that only atheists have rights. I have no idea how the courts determined where to educate your kids. Usually, its a compromise between the parents.
As to my friend – her company knew that they had the ability to work with her because they have enough people on staff who rotate their hours. So it was just another request in the pot. It worked out even better when the specifics cleared because there was one person who always wanted off on Saturday instead of Sunday and now it was easy to accomodate both of them. Otherwise, she would have rotated with other people.
Another friend of mine got a job offer from a famous auction house. When she accepted, she mentioned Shabbos and they retracted their job offer. Her position was being shared with one other person who always left by 4 oclock. Since they needed her to stay, they couldn’t reasonably accomodate her. So they weren’t legally required to.
SJS – Try reading a little bit before reacting!
fabie, are you referencing anything specific because I did read. I have good reading comprehension skills but do miss things occasionally.
Is there anything immoral about two men signing a contract together?
In my opinion, and that of most Americans, Yes.
Would you want to limit interracial marriage? Or interfaith marriage?
If it was immoral, yes. Of course, the constitution would bar it, but I would try.
The American system of law agrees that there is nothing wrong with killing animals as long as you do so humanely. That’s why cockfights are illegal. Its only PETA who thinks animals are equal or greater to humans. And they have the right to not eat animals. Imagine if their morality was forced on the rest of us! No one is asking you to contribute to a gay marriage.
Precisely. Most Americans think cockfighting and gay marriage are immoral, and so we force it on everyone. Force. Most Americans think eating meat is moral. Thats why the PETA kookoos haven’t succeeded in forcing it on us.
I’m not a witch, I’m you!
popa,
I don’t watch television so I have no idea what people say on the talk shows. I judge based on public statements by elected officials.
I’m a left wing academic and publicly supported the blockade. And so does the Obama administration.
Health,
Courts protect the right of parents (plural) to give their children a Jewish education. They just don’t give us the right to force someone else to pay for it. There is no right to force your employer to let you off on Shabat (although New York State law offers some protection).
Popa, if there was something wrong with two men signing a contract, then business wouldn’t be allowed. American marriage is a contract.
So Popa thinks that a Muslim and a Christian should not be able to legally get married? Or is it just Jews you want to limit? How does that fit into the constitution?
No one thinks animals and humans deserve the same rights (PETA thinks they deserve more, normal humans think we deserve less). But we do give animals basic protections under the law. Why are we denying people basic rights?
There are hospitals that won’t share medical information with a gay partner because they aren’t legally married. Which they can’t do. So they aren’t “next of kin.” Can you imagine how hard that must be? In case of emergency they can’t advocate for their partner.
I have to dig it up but there was one state that past inheritence laws that stated you could only leave your estate to your spouse or blood relative. It was specifically done to limit inheritence by gay couples. That’s abhorrant.
But like I said, I’m not pro-gay marriage, I think the US government has no business being in marriage at all.
SJS:
Yes, I think it is immoral for two men to make any contract at all. That is why we have corporations, otherwise no business could be done at all except between a man and a woman.
By which I mean, I think I responded adequately. I hope you don’t think I’m a mean jerk anymore.
Charlie:
Perhaps you should watch tv or read the news and see what is being said by the people who you think agree with you.
Popa now I’m not sure if I should take you seriously or not LOL. Two men can’t sign a contract? How would my husband hire a plumber? Or a general contractor? Can only married people do construction?
popa,
Are you actually frum? Promoting watching television????
Also, I have no idea what you are talking about regarding contracts. Chazal extensively discuss men making contracts with each other but never heard of corporations.
SJS wrote,
“I think the US government has no business being in marriage at all. “
I agree.
charliehall: Chazal also discuss what we do with faygelech.
Vegetarians is a much better example than your women and black examples. However, the issue here is that we are not stopping them from doing what they want – the equivalent to stopping us from eating meat, we just want to keep our own turf, too. We, the normal people don’t want the government sanctioning the breakdown of the concept of a normal marriage. Like I wrote earlier, they can get their visitation and inheritance rights without doing this. The only reason they are being so vociferous about it is to make US teach OUR kids that our own values aren’t true.
I get the feeling, SJS, that you feel that you owe the world everything for the fact that you are Jewish. While I am thankful for the tolerance America offers, I don’t have that complex.
I get the feeling, SJS, that you feel that you owe the world everything for the fact that you are Jewish.
Well put, HaLeivi.
The reality is the world owes us everything for the fact that Jews exist.
In California, a woman can be declared a father of a child and have to pay child support.
This happened when two women were living together and decided that one would have child and the other acted as if it was her child also.
In CA, when a man acts as if a child is his, it creates a presumption that it is his.
They applied this to the woman and declared her the father.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1131000643799532874&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
(posted to look knowledgeable.)
Charliehall.
I believe that the talk shows that Popa refers to are on the radio…
No, I don’t feel I owe the world everything because I am Jewish. I feel that I owe hakaras hatov to America for granting me freedom to practice my life as I wish. I am grateful that others went to bat for freedoms that they didn’t need so that I could have them. I don’t want to deny others the freedom to practice life as they please with the same benefits because of different choices we make.
Let me give an easy example: my company has a multipurpose room at headquarters. Every day, there is a mincha minyan (plus a maariv minyan when applicable). Now, imagine a group of muslims wanted to pray there also and I said “No, company property should not be used for religious purposes. Unless they are mine of course.” That’s the equivalent of what you are saying – give me freedom and deny others.
Not all the benefits of marriage can be granted in a contract (especially financial things like social security).
Truth is, this is a non-issue. In a few years gay marriage will be the norm. It already is in Canada and nothing has changed there.
Charlie -“There is no right to force your employer to let you off on Shabat” Stick to medicine, because you don’t know law. Our federal legislators, more than once passed a law that employers do have to accomodate for Shabbos. But what happened was our Supreme Court interfered and wrote in something that wasn’t there, namely it can’t be undue hardship. On the outside, it sounds like they just want to give the companies a fair shake. But the truth is, since they didn’t define exactly what that was except for some term called “more than deminimis”, they threw out a just law. This is because now any Judge can decide for themselves what that means. In my case, they never even tried to accomodate me, they just refused to hire me. All they proved in court was that they need Sat. workers and the anti-semitic judge accepted this as undue hardship. The Courts from the top down are virulently Anti-semitic, even though they won’t say it openly.
SJS -What credentials do you have to give me advice on child support?
“Why do we decide to limit these benefits to a man and a woman? Why can’t two men have a legal contract? That is all “marriage” is. Well, besides for a fancy party that can help stimulate the economy.”
I don’t understand why you keep putting forth the same argument, when time and again you were told it’s against the Torah? Who brainwashed you with these liberal beliefs that you keep repeating over and over again like a broken record? Did you have frum parents? Did you get a frum education? Do you have frum friends? Do you believe everything that you hear on the media? I believe you want to live a frum life and that’s why you keep some mitzvos. But what you don’t understand is you can keep all the mitzvos, but it doesn’t mean anything if you don’t believe in Torah haskafos. If you don’t even believe in one small piece of the Torah you are a Kofer! Chazal say that Gay marriage brings about the destruction of the world, but you keep arguing for it! For some reason beyond my comprehension, you keep denying this fact. Unfortunately, this makes you a Kofer, even though you don’t think your philosophies are Kefira! BTW, the Holocaust happened because Hashem decreed it, not because the Germans were mean people and liked taking away people’s rights.(They also might have been horrible people, but that’s not the reason it happened!)
Health,
I agree with you about the activist judges. Republicans have packed the courts with judges who overturn decades-old precedents and make up laws from nothing. That is one of the most important reasons to vote Democratic.
Heath, I love the attacks on my character. How awesome! I’m a kofer because I think:
1) There is no legal reason to outlaw gay marriage
2) I think the government should get out of marriage altogether
3) I think its wrong to ask for freedoms and deny them to others.
Please explain that.
Anyway, about your job: they aren’t required to hire you if its a hardship. If they need saturday workers, that is a hardship. Again, I don’t know the industry, but here is another example. A company interviews a disabled person. Their facility is not wheelchair accesible. If they have to install a new elevator system, it will cost them $1,500,000. They aren’t required to do that by law. But if all it costs is $50 to buy some wood to build a basic ramp, they are required. There is a reason the law is vague and that’s because its different for every industry/jobsite.
Your argument about the Holocaust is sort of ridiculous. Sure, everything is run by Hashem, but generally, we have free will. The germans (at least in the beginning) did so willingly. Americans are willingly asking for gay marriage to be allowed. Does that mean its Hashem’s will?
Also, has Canada been zapped to the Ocean for allowing gay marriage? its been around for a while up there.
Again, I don’t really support gay marriage. I support removing marriage from the American government. Marriage is a religious institution.
Republicans have packed the courts with judges who overturn decades-old precedents and make up laws from nothing.
Precisely. Decades old precedent. Reinstating the centuries old precedent.
States Rights now, States Rights Forever!
Overturn Wickard NOW!
Also, has Canada been zapped to the Ocean for allowing gay marriage? its been around for a while up there.
I don’t find this argument very convincing. Nor should you.
SJS -“Why do we decide to limit these benefits to a man and a woman? Why can’t two men have a legal contract? That is all “marriage” is.”
This statement is Kefira. Not only are you not allowed to publically say this statement, like you did here, you aren’t even allowed to think it. And if you want to know why -look at all the Chazal that was quoted previously about Gay marriage.
“Also, has Canada been zapped to the Ocean for allowing gay marriage? its been around for a while up there.”
This makes fun of Chazal -like they don’t tell the truth. Another big Aveirah!
“If they need saturday workers, that is a hardship”
Yea, that’s what my judge said, but neither the written law or the Supreme Court’s interpretation of this law says this!
You should first read the US federal case of TWA vs. Harding before you comment on things which you know nothing about! Your comparison to a disabled person is very funny! It’s not even the same law! There is a different law called the ADA, which was written clearly in it -that you don’t have to accommodate for severe hardship! The Supreme Court interpreted Title 7 (employment discrimination) that more than deminimis is an undue hardship that employers aren’t required to do. It doesn’t even mention this in the written law!
Health, please explain to me the halachic difference between a civil contract of marriage vs a contract written up between two men and signed (such as power of attorney, inheritence etc). As I said, I don’t believe the government should really grant marriages to anyone.
My statement about Canada was tongue-in-cheek. And Popa, it was just for my own amusement – should I have specified that? LOL
Now as to your “discrimination” – again, you still haven’t specified the industry. In my company, there are jobs I can’t apply for because the rotating schedule would be too hard to accomodate for me. So yes, I understand the laws. I was giving a parallel example that’s a lot easier to understand. Clearly, the judge disagrees with you. Since I can assume judges go by the law of the land (and you said it went all the way to the supreme court, so it wasn’t 1 judge), you are misinterpretting the law.
This statement is Kefira.
Back it up! Why is supporting contracts between men Kefira? After all, my Uncle might want me to be the legal next of kin over his wife or brother. Why is that Kefira?
It is all too easy to throw labels around.
Health,
You wrote,
“This statement is Kefira.”
Gavra is right on this. When you accuse someone of writing kefira, you better have some pretty convincing proof. How do you know SJS didn’t ask a shilah of a rav on this matter?
“Yea, that’s what my judge said, but neither the written law or the Supreme Court’s interpretation of this law says this!”
Actually that IS the Supreme Court interpretation in Trans World Airlines vs. Hardison. And that is the law of the land; the Congress could have overruled them by passing a new law but in 33 years it has not bothered to do so (and unless we get a lot more Democrats in Congress this is very unlikely to happen). Justices Brennan and Marshall dissented in the Hardison case — oh, do we need Justices like them today! But not a single member of the court is as supportive of civil rights are were Justices Brennan and Marshall. With the single exception of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, every single appointee to the court in the past 42 years has been more conservative than his/her predecessor and that means that the court is unsympathetic to civil rights, unsympathetic to criminal defendants (like Shalom Rubashkin) and convicted felons (like Jonathan Pollard) but totally sympathetic to corporations wanting to control the entire country (hence the recent *Citizens United* monstrosity). At least the recent Democratic appointees — Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan — are moderates who won’t go along with the worst of the radical agenda.
SJS:
Ok, I hope we can agree on the following premises:
A. Societies, including ours, do legislate morality.
B. That is ok, as long as it is a true measure of the morality of the nation.
C. Subject to constitutional restrictions.
D. Our society finds homosexuality immoral.
E. Our society finds homosexual marriage immoral.
F. Our society sees a benefit in not allowing homosexual marriage.
G. Homosexual marriage is not per se assur, since it does not exist. Neither is incestuous marriage per se assur.
H. Men making other contracts is not immoral or assur.
Now, I think we disagree on:
A. Is homosexuality really immoral.
B. Is homosexual marriage really immoral.
C. Are things which are not per se assur against the ratzon hashem.
We probably also disagree on whether the US constitution bars bans on homosexual marriage. However, I have little interest in discussing this. I don’t believe either of us have the necessary knowledge to carry on a proper conversation on the issue. (You are an engineer, correct?)
Popa, on you first list I disagree with D, E and F, which is why civil unions and gay marriage are being approved all over the US. Not rapidly really, but its being passed. And discussed. I think in 15-20 years all 50 states will have a gay marriage or civil union arrangement.
Now your second list.
I do think homosexuality is immoral per the Torah. I do think homosexual marriage is a gray area. I think I would need to know more about what the halachic definition of ketubah is to really make a definitive statement.
Yes, I’m an engineer 🙂
I’m also starting to get bored of this topic LOL.
And thank you GAW.
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