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Joseph – I was not condoning what they do, I was reponding because it seems people are so unfamiliar with this topic and make statements that mislead. The oilam is NOT safe from abusers and their employers have NOT been careful to keep them away from children. Many of the shuls have NOT been cooperative in keeping them out of the bathrooms and the people who run the mikvas have NOT been careful to guard the children. The parents have NOT been careful to accept the danger that exists and watch their kids. If someone does not advertise the danger of these guys, NOBODY is out there taking responsibility for the harm they can do. I will not tell you I know what action is halachically appropriate to take, but don’t tell me it is rare, it is being addressed, it is taken seriously by the authorities, it isn’t as big of a problem as it seems blah blah blah.
If YOU are not aware of who the molesters are, and if YOU are not careful to keep your kids away from them, your children are NOT safe.
There are many many halachos about how to tell Loshon Horo which is ltoieles, and “Wall of Shame” is definitely not something the Chofetz Chaim would have approved of. Let that statement suffice.
There are many many halachos about how to tell Loshon Horo which is ltoieles, and “Wall of Shame” is definitely not something the Chofetz Chaim would have approved of. Let that statement suffice.
The Chofetz Chaim would not have approved of abusers either
Syag Lchochma:
mw13 – I know you aren’t the only one who does this but what makes you think that asking on an internet forum is INSTEAD of asking a Rov. If I had an interesting situation that I asked my Rov about, that is totally besides the point of deciding it may make interesting discussion here.
I fully agree – that’s why I responded myself. I was just pointing out that for a real answer, one that can be relied upon li’maaseh, one must consult a real Rov.
mw13 – good point regarding the exception to mesira, and regarding people in jail not harming anyone – the people are in jail for what, 3 years? Then they get out and Monsey chaverim takes them right back to join their old team. Wouldn’t you want to know that before you call?
Hold your fire – I never said that people in jail can’t harm anybody else later on. I was merely responding to a point that was raised about the permissibility (or lack of it) of publicly shaming one wrongdoer with the sole intention of dissuading others.
yekke2:
What would you have said if it had been called the “Wall of Awareness”?
I just saw last week an interesting Meiri who seems to argue with the Halachah quoted in Shulchan Aruch that one is allowed to report on somebody who is a ????.
The Gemara in Gittin 7a brings a story of Mar Ukva who sent a letter to R’ Eliezer, complaining about a person who was ‘starting up against him’, and asking if he was permitted to inform on them to the government. R’ Eliezer replied by discouraging him from reforming.
There is a discussion in the commentaries exactly what the story was, and whether R’ Eliezer was giving advice or actually talking from a Halachic point of view.
The Meiri explains that Mar Ukvas opponent was a Moiser himself. He therefore asks why was it that he wasn’t allowed to report on the moiser – we find that one can kill a moiser!
The Meiris final answer is that it is better to kill him than to inform on him, and informing is forbidden even on somebody whom it is permitted to kill.
??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????
(I know we don’t pasken like the Meiri, but I was still surprised to see a Rishon who argues!)
He seems to only say this when their are other options, but would allow it if there were none (as would apply to the subject of this thread).
Most victims cannot bring themselves to report and go through the whole procedure in court reliving the trauma over and over again.
This is probably one of the main reasons why abusers are able to get away not only in our community but all across society.
Had we had a system where it was dealt with effectively without reporting we might have been much better off not to mention safer, the trouble is though, that far too often we FAILED to deal with it in any way.
Neut,I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your just naive. Serial abusers, whether Jewish or in the church, got away with it because persons in authority looked away. To this day, the Agudah still lobbies against a bill in New York State that would require private schools to check teacher’s fingerprints against a registry.
( public schools are already required )
Rabbinical and community leaders often strongly discouraged going to police, but did nothing to stop the abuser
Neutiquam: Well stated and 100% accurate.
Joseph & Neut:
There is one sliver of truth to your agreed upon point. I concur that there is no organized effort to protect molesters, whoever and wherever they are. That idea is launched and reinforced by the “fanatics” who claim falsely to be protecting children. Their extremism is only overshadowed by their sin’as Yisroel. We should know better by now.
The reality is that people tend to react to horrible news with open and frank denial. It is not uncommon at all that someone would respond to the news of a death by saying, “No, it can’t be.” That individual, sooner or later, needs to face the truth, and the dead person is not returning to life, until techiyas hameisim. Being notified that someone in a position of authority and power, particularly someone of the clergy (including positions in chinuch) is certainly shocking. One would wish to not believe the bearer of these tidings. In contrast to death, where one can personally witness the corpse, there is only the report of the event, and denying that is all too easy.
In the instances that get the bad press, the others in power wish to deny the truth of the report. Not because it is not true, but because they don’t want it to be true. This occurs individually in so many cases.
I agree with you both that the conspiracy theory is foolish and irresponsible, and I condemn those who believe it and push it. But the coverups occur, and they are common. I do hold those participating in a coverup responsible.
It should be clear that whilst we are all responsible to help, only the abuser is actually to blame.
I disagree. Anybody who has the ability to do something to rectify a situation and doesn’t shares responsibility for the outcome. Of course, the perpetrator himself takes the lion share of the blame, and would have to be either a sick, perverted individual or an ill person. People who can do something about it and don’t are not as bad in the sense that they are not doing deliberate damage; their inaction generally comes from more innocent origins: misguided judgment, cowardice, laziness, a heap of cognitive bias, and often the “bystander effect” (individuals will only take necessary action in a place where it is obvious to them that they are the only ones who can; in a situation where there are others who could do the same, nobody does it). But although you can split up the motives of the people responsible (evil v. misguided), everybody takes blame.
I would just like to add to that that the only conspirators are the ones who use words like “few”, “handful”, “uncommon” and “isolated cases” when discussing abuse, abusers and outright protectors.
There you go, NeutiquamErro. You have just been identified as a conspirator protecting abusers.
Joseph – true to your word altering form, even after a long fast. Nothing I said implied he was a conspirator in protecting abusers. Many people have a need to slip in those words to give the false illusion that these abuse cases are rare, or few and far between. And I have heard it from people who know darn well how false that is. That, my dear, is a conspiracy. Perhaps NE doesn’t qualify and has only fallen prey to the verbiage he has been overexposed to.
NE – I appreciate your clarification. I have nothing to say in regard to the case, I just find people slipping those words in to make a (subliminal?)point. I apologize if that wasn’t your intent/belief.
Syag Lchochma:
Just out of curiosity, would you also consider deliberate overestimation of abuse and/or cover up of abuse, especially when directed at one particular group (teachers/Rabbis/therapists/”the system”/etc) a conspiracy?
anything other than truth, especially when it is stated in order to give a false impression is wrong. are you really wondering what i think, or are you just trying to see if im a radical. I think my push for truth in reporting abuse, my push for acknowledging and supporting victims and my push for putting an end to cover ups has been pretty consistent over the years.
Syag:
Please allow me to clarify my use of those particular terms, such as ‘few’ or ‘isolated’.I wasn’t intending to make any point other than the one stated. I admit that to those who know more than I do about this issue, or victims, the term ‘few’ does sound as if it demeans or diminishes the extent of the crimes. And for that I apologise. In the context of the key point I was trying to bring across, I was simply trying to say, albeit clumsily, that, b’h, in terms of criminal abuse (as opposed to low-key emotional abuse), the vast majority of people are neither victims nor perpetrators, and we should not allow the facts of any particular case to be warped to ascribe blame to those who do not deserve it, an instance of which I have pointed out above. Akcnowledging this in no way diminishes either the crime of the abuser or the responsibility of those who aided the abuser actively or passively. And in most cases abusers are ‘isolated’, in that the patterns of activity found in goyshe cases of abuse, which often include ‘rings’ or ‘gangs’ of many abusers working together, is b’h rare in our communities, where abusers work alone, albeit sometimes with others wrongly covering up for them. I hope I have sufficiently explained how I in no way was attempting to play down the severity of the issue, simply pointing out an issue that often gets lost in the heat of the media storm, that of hostile elements painting an unfair or warped picture.
Lolbud: “the paterns of activity found in goishe abuse cases which often include rings or gangs is bH rare”
Rare but not unheard of unfortunately, remember that terrible case in Netivot?
As I pointed out earlier the victims themselves can often not bring themselves to come forward. The least we can do is try and set the conditions that would encourage the victims rather than frighten them even more.
Syag Lchochma:
are you really wondering what i think, or are you just trying to see if im a radical.
More like trying to see if you’re just pushing an “anti” agenda, or if you actually thought through your positions. I’m glad to see that the latter appears to be the case.
But still, I would ask you to bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of people do not belong to any vast conspiracy; people just view things differently.
And just to make absolutely sure that this isn’t taken the wrong way, let me state that I am in no way trying to dissuade “acknowledging and supporting victims and… putting an end to cover ups” in cases where abuse has occurred.
overall I agree with you. I would change this sentence however:
“But still, I would ask you to bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of people do not belong to any vast conspiracy; people just view things differently.”
to – the overwhelming majority of people do not belong to any vast conspiracy; people just don’t want to know about it or believe it is true.
While its good to hear that you do not believe that all those who disagree with you are part of a malignant plot, that’s not the entirety of the point I was trying to make. I was trying to point out that there are other people have a legitimate position on this issue which is not born out of either malignance or ignorance. You may believe that abuse and cover-ups are more unfortunately more widespread than commonly believed, but just because somebody disagrees with you doesn’t mean that they have their head stuck in the sand.
“but just because somebody disagrees with you doesn’t mean that they have their head stuck in the sand.”
nothing about my posts ever indicated such. all ive ever asked from people is to be honest, speak honestly and stop giving definitive opinions about subjects they are ignorant of. I have always been clear that my position has been about honesty and truth of this subject. interesting how it seems to bother you…
nothing about my posts ever indicated such
“people just don’t want to know about it or believe it is true” sounded to me like you were assuming those who disagree with you are doing so out of willful ignorance. But I’ll admit that I may have misjudged the tone of your comment.
To be clear, honesty and truth certainly do not “bother” me. I thought I had made that clear in the previous postscript: And just to make absolutely sure that this isn’t taken the wrong way, let me state that I am in no way trying to dissuade “acknowledging and supporting victims and… putting an end to cover ups” in cases where abuse has occurred.
Listen, I realize that this is a very sensitive subject and that people have strong opinions on it. But all I’m trying to point out is that there are other people here with legitimate opinions. You may believe that abuse and cover-up in unfortunately more widespread than commonly believed (and I’m not saying that you’re wrong), but just because somebody disagrees with you does not necessarily mean that they “just don’t want to know about it or believe it is true” or are bothered by the truth. Not everyone who disagrees with you is doing so only because they are ignorant.
Of course, you likely disagree. In which case, I’d say that it’s time to agree to disagree.
I’m not sure if you are reading the responses before answering. I don’t even know what “opinions” you are talking about. someone said there’s a conspiracy exaggerating abuse, I said that it isn’t a conspiracy but people would like to make it seem less then it is. Which post of that is opinion? I am talking from personal dealings with molesters, molested, people who cover up and people who fought them. I wasn’t giving any opinions about this, i was contributing first hand information based on personal dealings to a conversation that seemed to be speaking theoretically. so your complaint against me is baseless asked for all I know part of that same”agenda” you wondered about.
I can assure you that I did indeed read all of your comments before responding to them. However, it appears we have reached something in between an impasse and a communication breakdown. I have made my points, and you have made yours; perhaps its time to call it a day.
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