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If someone was a butcher and “accidently” sold trief meat, would you be so forgiving?
Yes, actually more so, but I probably wouldn’t buy meat from him. Just as I wouldn’t let my kids near an accused abuser, even if there wasn’t enough evidence to convict.
Its amazing how many chumras and protections one will go to not to eat trief, but are willing to be real Makil when it comes to an Abuser they are “Willing to give them the benefit of the doubt”
If someone was a butcher and “accidently” sold trief meat, would you be so forgiving?
ZD – Nobody is “Makil” when it comes to an Abuser. They are Machmir. There are ??? ???? issurim potentially involved in reporting a suspected crime to the government. Both ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????. Being Makil means not thinking before you speak.
And nobody is ever willing to give an abuser the benefit of the doubt. Nobody says that an abuser is accidental.
The only slight “????? ????” is that they are to be pitied for finding themselves at the matzav they are. It isn’t totally self-caused.
1. If someone is a serial-killer, but they have since become paralyzed without chance of recovery, should you report? He cannot kill again…
2. If someone has stolen from a store, but their hands have since fallen off and he is unable to steal again, should you report him?
3. If a man is caught spying on people in the Mikva, but he has since gone blind, should you report him? He can no longer spy…
In all of these scenarios, there are victims, there are crimes, and there is a wrong-doer. In all these scenarios, the wrong-doer is now incapable of performing the wrong *again*.
yekke2 – your post above is beautiful but false. You are so wrong about so much of what you are writing. You speak an awesome theory, you are 100% right about what SHOULD be, but unfortunately you are wrong about real life, how things are dealt with and what actually happens. I’ve noticed the naivete in many posts on this thread and others in regard to abuse and abusers and I didn’t want to bring it up because I do not approve of the global bashing that usually follows. Please know tho that the more you insist, the more painful it is to people who lived thru it and met up with nothing resembling what you write.
I fully agree with the general sentiments expressed on this issue by yekke, sirvoddmort, DY and NeutiquamErro.
wian: The answer to all three of your questions is no. They should be reported only to beis din which may (or may not) have a partial remedy as far as compensation being due to the victims. Any other remedies would be in Hashem’s hands. I am assuming the basis for all three of your cases is that there’s no chance of re-offending.
Yekke2:
Here is my rather belated reply: In your megillos above, you had two points. one was from a halchic standpoint, and, as far as I can see, as accurate a summation of the way halacha dictates we look at this as I have seen thus far.
But where I believe you slip up, if you’ll pardon me for saying this, is when you approach this from a purely moral standpoint. I may have read you wrong, and as you will probably understand I am not writing this with hours to spare, but you seemed to say that morally, he should not be punished. Now, were you saying this with reference to the fact that hakol beyad hashem, I would understand you. But you seem to saying that even leaving halacha out of it, it would be wrong to punish them. And on that I disagree. Whilst you make valid points about the impact on the abuser’s family, the reason we do not punish is because we know Hashem will. But from a ‘goyish’ point off view, were there no certain punishment in store, as we know there is, then certainly the abuser deserves to be punished.
Whats in a name – Obviously, the same answer applies. No one is minimizing the status of an abuser to be any better than a theif or a murderer. But there is no heter to be moiser on somebody for no good reason. And even if there was a heter, I wouldn’t do it. Because there is nothing to accomplish.
yekke2 – your post above is beautiful but false. You are so wrong about so much of what you are writing. You speak an awesome theory, you are 100% right about what SHOULD be, but unfortunately you are wrong about real life, how things are dealt with and what actually happens. I’ve noticed the naivete in many posts on this thread and others in regard to abuse and abusers and I didn’t want to bring it up because I do not approve of the global bashing that usually follows. Please know tho that the more you insist, the more painful it is to people who lived thru it and met up with nothing resembling what you write.
— Syag
I’m sorry if anybody was offended by anything I wrote, and please feel free to argue with anything you feel is incorrect. What happens in real life that we don’t know about? What actually happens? The purpose in these threads is that people like you, who are apparently unfortunately more knowledgeable about these things than us, should come forth and write your opinion.
I’m not sure exactly which post (I’ve posted quite a few on this thread) you are arguing with. Doesn’t sound like the halachic ones… Would you care to specify which post and what you have to add to it?
Unfortunatly many Bais Dins have proven themselves either unable or incapable of dealing with abusers
If you report someone to the police in a case which you are not entitled to do so, the din is hashkem lehargo. It doesn’t say that about many things. The role of the government is not to provide justice, but to protect society. If no protection to society would come from reporting this guy, is forbidden to report it. (I can already hear the next poster saying that prosecution protects society by dissuading other potential wrongdoers. For that, you have no right to use this guy as a korbon.) Remember, you are gambling with his life (and yours, being as you have a Din Rodef.) That’s not something to play games with.
If you report someone to the police in a case which you are not entitled to do so, the din is hashkem lehargo.
Is the moser a rodef even once he already made the report or is he only a rodef from the time he intended to make the report up to and through the point he actually made the report?
It is not our job in this world to met out punishment or revenge. ?? ??? ??? ???? – Hashem will make sure every person gets exactly what they deserve, from the Nazis to the child predators. Our job is to follow Hashem’s halachos, and the laws of mesirah are (at least in theory) pretty unambiguous – it is assur to hand over a Jew to the secular authorities, unless it is clear that he poses a danger to others. And while a proven abuser will indeed fall into this category, that leads us to probably the most thorny issue of the subject: What is considered adequate halachic proof that a person is an abuser? What if its just one person’s word against another’s?
charliehall:
“if you are a mandated reporter in the US, you can’t ask a shilah and you must report”
Just out of curiosity, what would you do if the US government mandated chillul Shabbos?
Syag Lchochma:
“you are 100% right about what SHOULD be, but unfortunately you are wrong about real life, how things are dealt with and what actually happens”
I don’t think anybody here was trying to describe how these matters are actually dealt with, and the unimaginable pain and suffering that those involved nebach go through. This is indeed very much a discussion of theory, of what the reactions “SHOULD be”.
probably the most thorny issue of the subject: What is considered adequate halachic proof that a person is an abuser? What if its just one person’s word against another’s?
What is so thorny? What is considered adequate halachic proof is pretty clearly defined by halacha itself. Just one person’s word against another is clearly inadequate halachic proof.
But where I believe you slip up, if you’ll pardon me for saying this, is when you approach this from a purely moral standpoint. I may have read you wrong, and as you will probably understand I am not writing this with hours to spare, but you seemed to say that morally, he should not be punished. Now, were you saying this with reference to the fact that hakol beyad hashem, I would understand you. But you seem to saying that even leaving halacha out of it, it would be wrong to punish them. And on that I disagree. Whilst you make valid points about the impact on the abuser’s family, the reason we do not punish is because we know Hashem will. But from a ‘goyish’ point off view, were there no certain punishment in store, as we know there is, then certainly the abuser deserves to be punished.
Sirvoddmort – Firstly, when I wrote ‘moral’, I was talking from a Jewish point of view. I was simply leaving the Halachic aspect aside, not talking in the hypothetical situation where nobody here was Jewish and therefore all other Jewish principles were also gone.
But even from a goyishe point of view, ‘morally’ <ask PAA if that has any merit to exist>, I hold that punishment purely for the sake of revenge is almost* pointless. There is no reason to punish somebody for past deeds. What have you to gain? What has he to gain? The concept of vengeance, the way I see it from a purely moral standpoint, is baseless.
The only reason I see to punish a committer of crimes is the deterrent to stop other criminals doing similar atrocities. And that, as I explained before <although DY disagrees>, that would enter the entirely different topic of the ‘end justifying the means’. Which we can debate in a different thread, if you want to try that (#KTCRIM)
Is the moser a rodef even once he already made the report or is he only a rodef from the time he intended to make the report up to and through the point he actually made the report? –Joseph
I believe that the din of killing a Moiser only applies from his plans to inform until the time he does inform. However, one who informs 3 times retains the status of a Moiser and can be killed regardless.
probably the most thorny issue of the subject: What is considered adequate halachic proof that a person is an abuser? What if its just one person’s word against another’s?
Excellent point. I was, once upon the time, of the opinion that 2 Kosher Eidim would be necessary to convict any molester of wrongdoing. I asked a Rav (who was involved in the investigation regarding another Rav who was accused of halachic misconduct) how they could accept testimony of women. He rightly pointed out that we are not trying to kill the man, nor are we trying to give him Malkus or to force monetary compensation. The only shailah was in ????? ???? ??? (in that particular scenario, where even according to the allegations, he had legally done nothing wrong, but was not fit to be a Rav), and for that, 2 ???? are not required.
The ???? ?????, discussing the story of a teacher who was accused of sexually abusing two students, allowed the testimony of the just-adult boys about their experiences as children; evidence which generally holds no water in Jewish Courts of Law. It would seem from his calculations that the same would apply to all women and children. (I haven’t seen the ???? ????? inside; I was told about it when discussing a similar case with a Rav).
I do not give a hoot about the abuser if he is able to continue abusing or not i care about the victims they need justice, we do not run this country we must abide by the rules set down not that it should have anything to do with the law its the right thing to do.
Goq, even if it violates halachah?
Yes halachah should rule our lives along with saichel there is crime and punishment, actions and consequences, wrong is always wrong.
DY
If Daas Torah says the victim is not to belived and the Perp goes free and is moved to another community, would you accept that Daas Torah (Assuming the Perp really is guilty)
I do not give a hoot about the abuser if he is able to continue abusing or not i care about the victims they need justice, we do not run this country we must abide by the rules set down not that it should have anything to do with the law its the right thing to do.
Does nobody here recognize any possibility that the abuser might actually be a victim? That he may also a korbon of our system for not dealing with him after he was abused as a child? (PBA’s old point).
Your point of “victims getting justice” was totally illegibly mixed with another about Law. Obviously, your point about law is irrational, because you (probably) keep Halachah, and unless Halachah allows you to report, your countries laws mean nothing in regards to overriding Halachah.
Your point about “victims getting justice” – sounds to me like you are blurring rationality due to emotional leanings… a dangerous approach in these issues. An approach many posters on the CR and – more importantly – many people in real life mistakenly take. Sometimes in life, you have to take a deep breath, stop thinking about personal reasons to point in either direction and actually think about it rationally.
If Daas Torah says the victim is not to believed and the Perp goes free and is moved to another community, would you accept that Daas Torah (Assuming the Perp really is guilty)
I don’t understand the question. “Assuming the perp is really guilty” – Do you know he is guilty in a manner that would be accepted by Daas Torah? If so, you don’t need the Daas Torah to have their own ?????. If your knowledge is not from a source acceptable to Torah, then obviously you accept Daas Torah. What’s the sofek?
ZD, if I knew for a fact that it was true, then no. If I don’t know for a fact that it’s true, then it depends on who, the “Daas Torah” is. I very well may not trust people you think I would call Daas Torah.
In these cases, usually very few people know anything for a fact, so it’s a judgment call as to whether there’s enough evidence to act. There are people you might think I would trust to make that judgment, who in fact, I wouldn’t.
Yekke yes i am reacting emotionally as a child i was abused in other ways and it is very hard to recover from such a thing the child must come first the abuser second sorry if that is not your view.
Goq – Emotional reactions, however painful, cannot allow ignoring Halacha. I would have thought that obvious.
‘Just out of curiosity, what would you do if the US government mandated chillul Shabbos?’
Leave the country.
“Unfortunatly many Bais Dins have proven themselves either unable or incapable of dealing with abusers”
ALL beit dins are unable and incapable of dealing with abusers. They do not have the power to compel collection of evidence or to compel testimony, they do not know how to safeguard evidence, they do not know how to conduct proper forensic investigations, and they do not have the power to enforce sanctions. We have no choice but to rely on the secular authorities.
“Remember, you are gambling with his life (and yours, being as you have a Din Rodef.) “
By doing nothing in abuse cases you are gambling with the lives of the victims and you are dealing with an abuser who falls under Din Rodef.
And if you are a mandated reporter you are dealing with your own life. In New Jersey, the definition of mandated reporter includes everyone.
Yekke, if, chas v’sholem , it was your child, would you be able to be so rational?
Yekke, if, chas v’sholem , it was your child, would you be able to be so rational?
Boruch Hashem, I have never been in the terrible situation, and I hope not to ever have to be able to face the answer to that question. Unfortunately, being rational is difficult when you are associated in the story, and the best way to deal with any situation is to imagine you were not in any way involved… or if that proves too difficult, get advice from somebody who actually isn’t involved. Involvement blinds all semblance of rationality (like the story of the Shach [which either did or didn’t happen]).
But my point was – rationality is the way forward, not unbalanced emotion. I don’t blame anybody for not being rational, but that doesn’t change the truth of the correct response.
If you are ever in a situation in which you ate considered a mandated reporter and halacha doesn’t allow reporting, you are mechuyav to leave the country. Quite a nisayon.
I am very sorry to hear you went through traumatic experiences as a child, and I cannot fathom the pain you must have endured. However, we are a people of laws, not of visceral reactions. The fact that others have done unspeakably evil things does not justify taking the law into one’s own hand. Our job is to follow Hashem’s Torah; He is the one who will make sure every person gets exactly what they deserve.
zahavasdad:
If the secular courts says that a supposed victim is to be falsely believed, and an innocent person gets put in jail, loses his livelihood, and is shamed and ostracized by his community (as are his wife and children), would you accept their ruling?
charliehall:
If a Bais Din believes that a person really is a child abuser, they will authorize him to be pursued in secular court.
But even from a goyishe point of view, ‘morally’ <ask PAA if that has any merit to exist>, I hold that punishment purely for the sake of revenge is almost* pointless. There is no reason to punish somebody for past deeds. What have you to gain? What has he to gain? The concept of vengeance, the way I see it from a purely moral standpoint, is baseless.
I accept your point that you were talking from a Jewish standpoint. But you seem to pin the entire concept of punishment from a ‘goyishe’ position as vengeance. I would say that, in the absence, choliloh, of a Jewish standpoint, there is still a requirement for the abuser to receive punishment. This does not have to be solely motivated by vengeance, but by a society saying that this crime deserves this punishment, and that this abuser deserves, and therefore is, punished. The fact that there may be an extra ulterior motive of revenge is irrelevant, as that is not the driving force. I hope I haven’t posted prematurely, having not had the chance to observe the rest of the thread yet.
People dont report people unless they know the victims directly.
While it may be true that in NJ everyone is a mandated reporter, you really would have to know specific information like a doctor for example who sees welts and bruises on a kid. Or a teach who sees similar marks.
Also emaciated kids is another sign the kid might have been abused.
You just dont report someone for being an abusder, you need intimate knowledge
sirvoddmort: Yet any punishment must be Torah authorize and limited in scope to no more than the Torah specifies. The punishments inflicted by non-Jewish society in these matters (severe jail terms) tend to be far more severe than halacha mandates and thus inappropriate to use as a form of punishment. (Protecting society from the perpetrator is a separate point from the one being made in this comment.)
What is the purpose of punishment if not vengeance (deterrence not included)?
YWN ran a news article today about a “Child Abuse Awareness” event planned by the Jewish Community Watch in Monsey this Sunday. On their website (link can be found in said news story), the JCW explains their mission statement:
Jewish Community Watch protects our children from child sexual abuse, and helps victims heal.
We Educate the public to promote child safety, increase awareness, and eliminate stigma.
We actively Prevent abuse of children by warning about suspected predators and working to put them behind bars.
We help victims Heal by getting them the support they need.
As part of their preventative measures, JCW has a fascinating technique that I think has bearing on this discussion: They have a “Wall of Shame”, filled with names and pictures of suspected (although not necessarily proven) child abusers.
Thoughts?
As part of their preventative measures, JCW has a fascinating technique that I think has bearing on this discussion: They have a “Wall of Shame”, filled with names and pictures of suspected (although not necessarily proven) child abusers.
I disagree with this. Until properly proven, you cannot do anything publicly. Putting up a photograph of a suspected molester on a wall dedicated to suspected criminals is a disgraceful thing to do. Whatever you can do once convicted is debateable, but to hang somebody without proof?
Ahh. I love witch hunters. Easy way to lose your olam haba in one shot; just hang someones picture on the wall. I wouldn’t bid much on this persons olam haba if it was on Ebay.
yekke2, my first reaction mirrored yours. But then I remembered an excellent point that was brought up by none other than yourself:
I was, once upon the time, of the opinion that 2 Kosher Eidim would be necessary to convict any molester of wrongdoing. I asked a Rav (who was involved in the investigation regarding another Rav who was accused of halachic misconduct) how they could accept testimony of women. He rightly pointed out that we are not trying to kill the man, nor are we trying to give him Malkus or to force monetary compensation. The only shailah was in ????? ???? ??? (in that particular scenario, where even according to the allegations, he had legally done nothing wrong, but was not fit to be a Rav), and for that, 2 ???? are not required.
In hilchos loshon hara, I believe one is supposed to let others know about any realistic chance that somebody is out to do them harm. This person is not supposed to fully believe you, but they are allowed to take steps to prevent any possible harm to themselves.
I think that this idea should fall into that category. (Although I also think awareness and prevention should be the focus here, not shaming.)
If someone was suspected of being an abuser, I assure you that you would want them far far away from your kids and anyone elses kids for that matter.
Mw13, they call it the Wall of Shame. You tell me – what’s the focus?
I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a list of abusers; I think ZD makes a good point. I just hope there’s a real posek guiding them in hilchos l”h.
I have a different scenario of abuse. Last summer, I was shopping at Brach’s supermarket in the Five Towns. For those not familiar, it has a large parking lot, a five foot wide no parking zone clearly marked by painted yellow lines, and curb cuts at each end of the sidewalk to use for carts.
I had finished shopping, left the store only to find a frum women parking her minivan curbside and blocking the curb cut. I asked her to move the van as I would have to walk 300′ to the other cut. She said no,even though there were 30 empty spots in the lot. I would have gone on my way not I saw an infant in a car seat still in the car. I told the woman it was dangerous to leave the child in a locked car when the outside temperature was 83. She said she would only be inside for 15-20 minutes. I replied I would call 911 to report child abuse, as the health of the child was in danger. She took out the baby when I started to call.
What would you have done? Do you think this would have been mesira?
DY – The subtitle is “Keeping you aware”, so there seems to be elements of both.
lesschumras:
Although said woman is quite clearly an idiot, I don’t know if there would be enough of a risk of real danger to the child (she did say she’d be back in 15-20 minutes) to permit meira.
But as always, for a real answer #AskARealRovNotAnAnonymousInternetForum
Heat builds up quickly in the summer in a locked car. Better safe than sorry. Anyway, the threat of the report got her take the baby out
I agree with LC. 15 minutes is enough, rachmana litzlan. She’s not just an idiot, she’s a dangerous idiot.
As far as the Wall of Shame, the title is a big clue, plus they list people who are in jail, so aren’t capable of abusing. One can argue that they’re allowed to shame to scare off potential abusers; in fact, this is what they say they’re doing. Is it halachically justifiable? #AskARealRovNotAnAnonymousInternetForum. (No offense)
Regarding the 15 minutes in the sun, it a question of metzius; it either is a life-threatening danger, or it is not. I just don’t know.
DaasYochid:
As far as the Wall of Shame, the title is a big clue, plus they list people who are in jail, so aren’t capable of abusing. One can argue that they’re allowed to shame to scare off potential abusers; in fact, this is what they say they’re doing. Is it halachically justifiable?
I don’t know. We find that danger of harm is an exception to mesira; does this also apply to publicly shaming people?
#AskARealRovNotAnAnonymousInternetForum. (No offense)
I use that hashtag when somebody asks a halacha shaila that is nogea li’maaseh as to what they should do; I don’t believe that this falls into that category, seeing as this organization will do whatever it pleases whether we like it or not.
But still, touche 🙂
Although said woman is quite clearly an idiot, I don’t know if there would be enough of a risk of real danger to the child (she did say she’d be back in 15-20 minutes) to permit meira.
But as always, for a real answer #AskARealRovNotAnAnonymousInternetForum
Good grief
And I bet if she wasnt caught and the baby died everyone would be saying how this was a “Message from Hashem to do Tshuva ” or “Increase Tzniut”
mw13 – I know you aren’t the only one who does this but what makes you think that asking on an internet forum is INSTEAD of asking a Rov. If I had an interesting situation that I asked my Rov about, that is totally besides the point of deciding it may make interesting discussion here.
That list JCW publishes has has no serious halachic backing. They’ve been taken to severe task for this years ago already.
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