Reporting Abusers

What if everyone in the world is dead, except for you, and the judge, and the abuser?

And you know you will be able to stop the abuser from abusing you (since you know she is an abuser, and now you carry a big board with nails sticking out of it that you found in the rubble). But maybe she will abuse the judge? But if she tries, then the judge will know and will punish her anyway.

So do you tell?

Also, there is nobody to ask, since they are all also dead, idiot.

Disclaimer: If anything like this comes about lmaiseh, ask your LOR. Obviously, no practical advice should be taken from anybody on an online forum.

This is an issue which needs to be weighed heavily. Every tiny detail in every different scenario could be a huge game-changer. There are a couple of factors that need to be considered in every case – not just the specialized one NeutiquamErro posted (I’m not sure why he chose that case):

(i) The Abuser

(ii) The Abusers Family

(iii) The Victim

(iv) Potential Victims, aka Society.

(v) Yiddishkeit in General (Cheshbon of Chillul Hashem)

In the case you pointed out, there is little to gain by reporting to the government. There is no ????? ????? or ????? ????? (which would be involved in the Moser issue which we will discuss later), because there will be no more victims. The Abuser and his Family have only to lose – also something to go into later. The Victim gains nothing except ‘closure’, and Yiddishkeit would definitely suffer a great loss of Chillul Hashem, both among the Goyim and among ourselves.

I would say, therefore, that it would be both assur and wrong to report such a person. And absolutely no motive to do so besides revenge, which is not a Jewish trait. “Punishment” meted out by individuals is not something we have in Yiddishkeit.

What could possibly be a justifiable reason to ruin a family’s name? To make the wife and children walk through the streets with shame? To lose the abuser his job? To ruin generations of shidduchim? To ignite the fires of Loshon Hara and Sinas Chinam that already destroy Klal Yisroel?

There are other cases, however, which need more ????? ???? than this pretty clear cut situation.

The course of action to be followed must strictly be in accordance with halacha and not in line with what you or I think makes the most sense or is the most fair.

KTCRIM – Keep the CR Interesting Movement

Good job, I must say.

” in a case where there is no question of them repeating the abuse?”

There is no such case. Ever.

And there we have it. ???? ??????? ???? ?? ?????.

DY: No, he’s saying that you’ll go to jail for not reporting so it’s not worth living in Jersey. Also, isn’t it a Gemara in Niddah that implies if the government will punish the Rav for covering up that he can turn someone in? I think it’s a Machlokes Rishonim there.

One has to take into account the Shittos that there is no Issur of Mesirah in places with a fair legal system.

But if there is genuinely no question of them repeating the abuse, and this is possible (If they are now severely disabled, for example), then is it our duty to ensure they are punished?”

How about our duty to show the one who was abused that we care about what he went through? To show other abusers that we care about what they do?

The abuser deserves no sympathy for what he did. He should be reported to the real authorities. No more covering this up.

Covering up shows other abusers that if the circumstances are right, they can get away with a grievous action.

Covering up shows the victim that we are disregarding what they went through and protecting their abuser.

Covering up is absolutely disgusting.

— Whats_in_a_name

Anyone that witnessed the agony that victims of abuse go through for the rest of their lives would not even dream of letting the abuser go free.

True, Hashem will most definitely punish the abuser- He’s even begun already, it seems, in this case.

That doesn’t take away from the fact that the victim would gain immeasurable relief, knowing that the abuser is experiencing the consequences that they so deserve, having destroyed the victim’s life.

Please dont have rachmanus on the abuser…. Hashem yerachem, please don’t make that sick mistake.

— Letakein Girl

LG – This post is very unlike you. Your normally advocating to give people chances, not to jump to criticize, to be nice to everyone. This is a pretty harsh judgment!

Before we start from a halachic standpoint, lets talk about it morally. You are destroying a family – Sholom Bayis, Shidduchim, Parnassah, Peace of Mind, Happiness. You are destroying a man [albeit a disgusting man, although that too needs discussion]. You are starting another scandal that will rip the Jewish Communities to shreds as various Rabbanim take sides and the Kehillas fight. You are creating International Chillul Hashem.

What is the purpose of this? You mentioned two reasons: (a) To show the victim that you care. (b) As a deterrent for other abusers. The first reason is definitely foolish. You cannot destroy a family just in order to give ‘closure’ to a victim. There are other ways to show you care; provide therapy, warmth, support. The second reason is a more difficult aspect – the ends justifying the means. Also something to be discussed separately. You are saying that although he doesn’t warrant being locked up, if we don’t lock him up then we will cause others to follow. Is that a reason to punish him?

Then there is Halacha: Involved in reporting to Goyishe courts are numerous potential problems (tbd): (i) Mesirah (ii) Loshon Hara (iii) Lifnihem vlo lifnei aku”m. Plus the ??? ??? ????? problems of destroying a family. Halacha cannot be pusehd away simply because you want to ‘give closure’.

Another point – PBA rightly pointed out (although this point must be handled carefully) on a different thread a couple of years ago that the attitude of disgust towards abusers is not always correct. Often (obviously not always, but more often than you would think), the abuser is himself a victim of abuse. This does not justify anything, but perhaps the abuser needs pity, not hatred.

Halachic Discussion:

(a) Is a Molester considered a Roidef, in which case it is ???? ?????? ?????, and obviously reporting is also permitted?

This depends on the nature of the case. The Gemara Sanhedrin lists three cases which are ???? ?????? ?????. One of them is a Roidef to perform any capital sexual offence (Koreis/Misah), including Eishes Ish, Homosexuality and Incest. The Achronim dispute the status of a Roidef Niddah (See Avnei Nezer/R’ Akiva Eiger), which would include any adult female.

This din of Roidef would only apply, obviously, to somebody intending to perform a full maaseh. Somebody who would just molest would not be considered a Roidef, according to this. However, he would probably have the Halachah of a Sofeik Roidef, which is in itself a disputed topic (I think Minchas Chinuch/Achiezer; possibly before that as well) whether to consider such a person a Roidef.

Somebody molesting a non-related 3 year old girl, however, would not be considered a Roidef. The issur of a ??? ?? ????? is not even a ???????? necessarily, according to the Raavad (The Rambam argues).

(b) If he isn’t a Roidef, can we report anyway? See Shulchan Aruch Cho”M 388:7/8 with Shach & Sema about somebody who causes physical or monetary loss to individuals. I will try be ????? about this another time.

(c) Mesirah in 2015: It could well be that Mesirah was only a problem decades ago, when the governments were cruel and dictators ruled with iron fists, killing and harming anybody in their way. Perhaps in a modern day democratic government, with supposed just legal system, and comfortable prisons which do not threaten the wellbeing of the person you are informing on – but rather a severe annoyance. See Aruch Hashulchan CM 388:7 and Tshuvos Tzitz Eliezer ??? ?”? ??’ ??.

:Here are links to some of the Mareh Mekomos I quoted

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???”? ???? ??? ? ??’ ?”? (See Ra”e there who infers from Rambam; not in link)

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?????? ?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ?

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???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ?”? ???

??”? ??? ?????? ??”? ??’ ?”? ????? ???? ???? ??????

Child molesters cannot be cured. If left free, they will continue to molest. If not reported to police, can someone explain the steps that rabbonim take to satisfy themselves that no further instances will occur. Thanks

The OP did also ask what should happen if the verified abuser is definitely not going to re-offend. The example given was if the abuser was incapacitated. So I would think this is obvious; In a situation where there is no question of them re-offending (Rare though they may be, but not impossible), it is certainly ossur. I can think of no exception. Of course, this is in a case where mandated reporting is not in effect. In a case where it is, I honestly don’t know. But I doubt anybody can argue with the above case and the conclusion.

LC, I’ve heard that the courts sometimes will leave an abuser out of jail if he undergoes therapy and supervision.

No he is recommending that all NJ jews do the right thing and report CRIME to the proper authorities, lets say reuven was driving down the road and he got carjacked and you come along and say dont worry we know who did and we will make sure he does not do it to anyone else does this comfort reuven does he have his car/innocence back? no

lesschumros – I have refrained from following along with this thread because so may people who are so lucky to be ignorant of the subject are not hesitating to post anyway. But I can’t resist answering your last post.

When they find out they take three immediate steps:

1)pretend they didn’t hear what you said

2)pretend the reporter has no chezkas kashrus

3)use any means they can to make sure you drop the subject

presto – case closed!

Daas Yochid:

Yekke2, forget about the technicalities – isn’t he a “rodef” because we know how abuse ruins the victims’ lives? I don’t mean literally to <codekill him, but shouldn’t we do whatever we can, including reporting to the authorities, to prevent him from hurting someone else?

I was discussing the Heter as a Roidef, which only applies in certain cases – by a ???? to be ???? any ????? ??????????? over the age of 9/3. This would allow you to ‘transgress’ Hilchos Mesirah.

As I believed I mentioned in “Point (b)” above, even without Hilchos Roidef, the Shach and Sma explain the Mechaber to allow Mesirah in a case where there is monetary or physical harm. So yes, even without being a Roidef it would be allowed to report a confirmed molester.

I also don’t know why deterrence shouldn’t be in the same category. If locking him up will prevent others from abusing, that will save victims from untold agony, serving the same purpose as preventing him from repeating his crimes.

My point was that locking somebody ‘undeserving’ up simply as a deterrence against others perpetrating the same crime is a case of the Ends Justifying the Means, which in this instance would be a problem. You seem to be suggesting that any jailing that would cause less victims should be made, even if not deserving? Imagine, for arguments sake, locking up the Rav of each shul would somehow cause the abuser to take less victims (stupid example). Would you lock up the Rav?

R’ Chaim Kanievsky said recently that the police should be contacted immediately, without getting permission from a Rav first. He said doing so will save other people.

“If this man saw from his thoughts and actions that he was a potential abuser, he should have gone for help that very moment. Therapy, meds- whatever it takes. There is no room for mollycoddling in an area as serious as this. “

Unfortunately he himself was not the only one who overlooked his tendencies. So did the employers who passed him off to another without a word . . . It brought a huge rift to the community and tremendous distrust among people and leaders. It was tragic.

I am not sure this would still be handled so poorly today, but I am not sure enough that it wouldn’t.

And once again I’ll reiterate my point, for the benefit of the erstwhile ZD and others, who appear to either not bother or are unable to read what they are responding to:

a hypothetical case. This is not every case, not even emblematic of many cases, but simply a single hypothetical what-if: A case where we are as certain as can be that the individual has committed abuse. That it not in question. They have, since the abuse occurred, become severely incapacitated, to the extent that there is no chance of them committing the abuse again. Unless you’re all suffering from an imagination bypass, you will understand this is possible. Rare, but possible. The only thing to be achieved here is revenge/closure, call it what you will. Halacha dictates this is simple: We may not report it to the authorities. If it makes it simpler, which it would seem is necessary, there is no mandatory reporting in this case. Can anybody honestly say, within the given parameters, that there is any justification for reporting in this instance. Yes or No? And if Yes, why?

Yekke2:

Your halachic arguments are, as far as I can tell, unimpeachable. There may be a few niggling points to add/detract, but by and large you have summed it up admirably.

On the moral issue I must take umbrage. From a purely moral standpoint, the abuser deserves to be punished (if we are certain they committed said abuse, of course). We simply believe that in today’s world we have neither the power to punish the abusers ourselves nor the right to give them over to the authorities. The reason we do not is because it is ossur and hakol beyad Hashem. Not because it would in some way impact their family. This argument would be fairer if the abuse in question was only a suspicion.

It doesn’t mean they are, either.

Its amazing how many chumras and protections one will go to not to eat trief, but are willing to be real Makil when it comes to an Abuser they are “Willing to give them the benefit of the doubt”

If someone was a butcher and “accidently” sold trief meat, would you be so forgiving?

In other words, wrong as he may be, what he did doesn’t warrant the punishment you want to give him.,

It very well might, but only Hashem can make that judgment and carry it out.