REPLY TO mdd ABOUT CALLING GIRLS BY 1ST NAME

wow, thanks for sharing that. it is so true. i really appreciate everything rav falk writes.

Is there anything written about young ‘uns calling old folk by their first names?(w/o the Rav, Reb, Mrs., etc.)

When I first started going to bungalow colonies, I felt very funny calling women who were old enough to be my mother by their first names, but when all the women are shmoozing, it is funny to call them Mrs. So and so and to be honest they don’t like it. When they are part of the circle they just want to be called by their first names, even by women who might be young enough to be their children. I think that every situation warrants common sense and insisting on doing what you think is right when it bothers someone else is not necessarily right.

1- Rabbi Oelbaum form Machon Bais Yaakov always calls teh girls by MIss last name. Zehirus in Tzniyus.

Maybe a girl in the workplace can not use her regular hebrew/affectionate name but use a formal version or even a secular version to be used just in the secular environment…… prevents her form feeling close. Rebbeca instead of Rivka, Judith instead of Yehudis, “Raitchel” instead of Rochel etc………

I know of too many single girls who fell prey to the new fund freedom and excitement of relationship in the workplace………… big time problems……. serious ones……. Enough alluded to. Harchakos are in order.

I think that in todays workplace, everyone calls each other by first name only. It is commendable that the woman left the job because she did not feel comfortable being called by first name. But what if she has a family to support and can’t get another job where they will call her miss or mrs? This is for sure a question that she should ask her Rov (as much as I love Rabbi Falk’s sefer, he is not paskening for everybody, just giving guidelines).

I would respectfully remind everyone there was a time in history when women did NOT have a second name (neither did the men). It is only in recent centuries that we call people Mr. or Mrs.

In an office where everyone is referred to on a first-name basis, it would be the odd person indeed who insisted on being called Miss So and So. And if tznius is your aim, that would defeat the purpose because it would always call attention to that person.

Listen up fellow coffee drinkers!!

This has nothing to do with Rabbi Falk. All the men who have frum female workers understand why they should not be calling females by their first names. Let’s not fool ourselves.

In our society it has become normal to call females by their first names BECAUSE our society has sunk so low. It has also become “normal” for bosses to have improper relationships with their co-workers.

In our times harchokos are needed more than ever before.

I heard from Reb Moshe Aharon Stern zt”l that couples calling each others spouces by their first names is one of the most common causes for Shalom Bayis issues. When men become friendly with the other gender, and visa verso, it makes people compare others, albeit subconsciously, to their own spouse. This is not healthy.

I have heard from girls who were extremely uncomfortable with their frum male boss. I have also heard of girls who, unfortunately enjoy their relationship a little too much.

When a female gets dressed in the morning and, even if subconsciously, tries to look nice for the “people” in the office, we know there’s trouble.

If one of the Gedolim would be sitting in the office, would the men and women act the same? Would they address each other in the same manner? The SHECHINA should nor be viewed as any less.

You are all correct, in the previous generations things might have been different. They may have called each other by their first names. I don’t know. But the taivos were certainly more tame back then, And the women dressed a lot different then!!

Let’s not all fool ourselves!!

It is forbidden to make small talk about matters unrelated to business. Men and women working together should not discuss politics, current events, recent tragedies or gossip, even if they do not do so regularly. Discussing these matters on a daily basis, is a violation of halachos that border on giluy arayos, which requires one to sacrifice his life rather than transgress. (p. 9)

When conversing with female employees or co-workers, one must be careful not to us the word “we,” so that the man and woman are not referred to as one unit. For example, one should not say, “We must talk with the editor,” or “We must purchase that software program.” Rather, he should say, “The editor must be consulted,” or “Please purchase that program.” (pp. 10-11)

It is a custom amongst yirei shomayim not to call a woman other than one’s wife or immediate family member by her first name, thus keeping a respectful distance between the two parties. Referring to a woman by her first name brings inappropriate familiarity into the relationship. Similarly, a woman should refrain from addressing a man other than her husband or immediate family member by his first name. (p. 20)

A Helpful Suggestion:

It is appropriate for male and female employees [to] refrain from all conversation when they meet anywhere outside of the office. This includes not discussing even job-related matters when meeting in the hallway or elevator at work.

“It cannot be stressed enough that the term prutzim also refers to people who are otherwise shomrei Torah u’mitzvos, but are not careful in matters relating to kraivah l’arayos. They may be regularly exposed to immodesty through the media, or may often be in the presence of immoral individuals through their everyday social interactions….(p.39) meaning that they are exposed to immodesty through television, movies, in publications and the like. An individual involved in such activities is labeled a parutz. This is not limited to visual images; someone who is exposed to any form of indecent activity, such as chat rooms on the Internet, is considered a parutz. Such forms of recreation are a breach of morality.” (p. 34)

everyone in my yeshiva (including my Rosh Hayeshiva) called the secretaries by their first name

In those days you think the men called the women by their forst names?

I doubt they spoke to them at all.”

You are probably right, but we do not know that for certain. They certainly had SOME contact with women in some context. Women conducted a lot of business.

Sammyp: But for people who are accustomed to calling people by their first names it’s an irrelevant distinction. It only adds something significant because it was decided that it would be that way, not because calling someone by their first name has an inherent significance.

uhhhh… is there not a gemarah that expressly states that one should not call people by any name other than their given/first name(s) (i.e. surnames, nicknames)????

@Health:

She quit because it made her uncomfortable, not because someone else didn’t keep a Chumra. I agree with you that the other person did not do anything wrong in the slightest, and I personally also feel that it was a bit of an overreaction, but if she did not feel comfortable there, I can sort of understand why she didn’t want to be there.