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if a widow remarries, is she buried next to her first husband or second? and when moshiach comes, who will be her husband?
if a widow remarries, is she buried next to her first husband or second?
Whichever one she or her relatives want.
and when moshiach comes, who will be her husband?
Neither, since her last marriage was terminated by her death or her husbands. Therefore, when she is resurrected, she will be able to marry whichever one she wants (or even someone else entirely).
The Wolf
(or even someone else entirely)
That would be nasty.
are u guys mekubalim???? how do you know??
or is this one of those conversations that ppl argue about things they dont know??
Does it depend on who dies first?
My father-in-law remarried after my mother-in-law died. He is buried next to her. I assume when his second wife dies she will be buried next to the father of her children as well. I believe this is customary.
how do you know??
I gave my reasoning. Marriage is terminated upon the death of either of the partners.
The Wolf
ummm. with all due respect i don’t think this is the kind of question that you’re meant to apply your “reasoning” to. is there a source for what you are saying? because i don’t think that according to jewish belief all that much is terminated by death (being that we believe the neshama lives after the body’s death), except insofaras the spouse who remains can remarry. but its definitely a kabbalistically important matter who a person is buried by. Chazal say Rochel Imeinu lost the privelage of being buried next to Yaakov to Leah due to her actions.
Wolf:
If marriage is terminated at death, why does the husband inherit her if he is not longer related?
I saw in a Sefer (I don’t remember which) that if a woman remarries after her husband’s death, in Oolam Haba she goes back to the first.
Wolf – what’s your Mekor?
If marriage is terminated at death, why does the husband inherit her if he is not longer related?
Because inheritance takes place at the moment of death, not after it.
The Wolf
Wolf – what’s your Mekor?
I need a mekor that a marriage is terminated at death???? How about the fact that either party is free to remarry?
The Wolf
but its definitely a kabbalistically important matter who a person is buried by.
I’ll tell you what… open up a Shulchan Aruch or some other sefer and show me where there is a specific halacha that says that she has to be buried by any particular husband. Keep in mind that there are *many* cemeteries that don’t even bury husbands and wives together anyway.
If you show me that there is such a halacha, I will be more than happy to retract.
The Wolf
Wolf – “and when moshiach comes, who will be her husband?
Neither, since her last marriage was terminated by her death or her husbands. Therefore, when she is resurrected, she will be able to marry whichever one she wants (or even someone else entirely).”
No, you need a mekor for the above. If the sefer says Oolam Haba, I doubt there is a difference in Moshiach times.
wolf: lol. why should i show a source for questioning your post? i think looking through tanach its clear that there is a an inyan that place of burial is important (even in terms of rising for techias hamaisim). its not random or convenience-the avos made a big deal about place of burial and being buried with their spouses. (Yaakov and all the shevatim brought to eretz yisrael, yaakov explains to yosef why he did not move rachel, the buying of me’aras hamachpaila, eisav’s fight for it…). i’m really wondering how you can just brush it off unless you have some kind of source. as for a source for what is commonly excepted (NOT what you are saying…gotta ask my husband to look into that and will post later
by the way, “till death do us part” is a goyish part of the wedding ceremony. i don’t remember that as part of the sheva brachos…but hey, its been a while since my wedding.
If the sefer says Oolam Haba, I doubt there is a difference in Moshiach times.
I’ll tell you what. You find me the sefer so that I can research it, and then we’ll talk.
The Wolf
by the way, “till death do us part” is a goyish part of the wedding ceremony. i don’t remember that as part of the sheva brachos…but hey, its been a while since my wedding.
You’re right, but what does that have to do with it? The fact is that after one partner dies, the other is free to remarry. If that doesn’t indicate that the marriage is over, I don’t know what does.
The Wolf
i think looking through tanach its clear that there is a an inyan that place of burial is important (even in terms of rising for techias hamaisim).
I never argued that it wasn’t important. But you’re going to insist that a wife MUST be buried next to one particular husband (as opposed to any others she may have in her life), you’re going to have to show me a source.
Again, if you can show me that I’m wrong, I’ll be more than happy to gracefully retract my statements… but to date, you have not done so.
The Wolf
I always knew that if a person remarries for whichever reason, he may not be buried near his first wife when he dies.
I’m going to ask for a source for that as well. I find it hard to believe that if a man is married for fifty years, has kids and grandkids with a woman and then, after she passes away, chooses to spend his remaining few years with another woman that that makes him ineligible to be buried next to his first wife to whom he was married the vast majority of his life.
The Wolf
“I always knew that if a person remarries for whichever reason, he may not be buried near his first wife when he dies.”
IMO, this is incorrect. my beloved father, A’H, remarried twice after my beloved Mother, A’H, was niftar. he is buried next to her (my Mom).
I am re-married & you had better believe that I am, iy’H after 120, gonna be next to my (now) husband, the father of my children. (and, my husband is not gonna be buried next to his 1st wife!!)
Where was Avigayil, the wife of Dovid HaMelech, buried–next to Dovid or next to her first husband, Naval? For that matter, what about Dovid’s wife Bas-sheva? Does anyone know?
its less of a problem if the wife passes away and he remarries. he could theoretically be buried next to both. and he certainly can have both wives when moshiach comes.
What if they’re sisters? 🙂
The Wolf
my mother, a’h, died first… please read complete comments.
just curious, shlishi– are you old enough to vote?
i still remember voting for fdr’s first term…
And I remember voting for Millard Fillmore.
The Wolf
Wolf- “I’ll tell you what. You find me the sefer so that I can research it, and then we’ll talk.”
I’ll tell you what, you find it and research it yourself. In my first post- I said “I don’t remember which.” The only reason I even remember what it says is because it was a chidush to me. I would have thought like you or she stays with the second.
I’ll you what, you find it and research it yourself.
Um… no. I don’t think so. If you want to make the point, it’s on you to provide the source. It’s not up to me to go searching for *your* source.
The Wolf
Wolf – That’s funny -because I don’t remember which sefer I saw it in, my point is less valid than yours. Even if you think I’m lying about seeing it, it’s a least as good as yours which came off the top of your hat!
Wolf – That’s funny -because I don’t remember which sefer I saw it in, my point is less valid than yours. Even if you think I’m lying about seeing it, it’s a least as good as yours which came off the top of your hat!
At least my point is based on logic — it’s logical that a marriage is dissolved on the death of one of the partners.
Part of arguing a point and citing an authority is the ability to produce it so that your disputant can look at it for himself. If you can’t tell me where it is, then how can I look it up? It’s not up to me to search every sefer in existence to find your point.
The Wolf
This is such a sticky wicket. What if her first marriage was terrible, but she stuck it out, and her second marriage was everything she wanted it to be? What if she was married to hubby #1 for a much shorter time than hubby #2? What if she is the second wife of a first husband (for her)? I think these are things that need to be discussed at some point, so there are no misunderstandings later on.
Wolf – The problem is the Torah’s logic is not based on your logic. The Torah for this world says if a spouse dies, the women can remarry. You went ahead and carried this logic on for a different world. It’s not anymore logical than what I read in the sefer. Obviously the mechaber of the sefer knows more than you. It wasn’t a sefer written by someone in our generation.
I always used to ponder about this. Also, how about one that never gets married? Doesn’t s/he have the other half neshama?
It’s not that poshut -what a zivug means. Also, supposedly every Neshama is a part of Hashem. A person has to do, what they have to do in this world, let Hashem worry about the rest. If someone made their proper Histadlus and still didn’t end up getting married, Hashem isn’t going to hold it against them. But remember I said proper, it might not be what you consider proper. A lot of people are just way too picky!
Obviously the mechaber of the sefer knows more than you. It wasn’t a sefer written by someone in our generation.
But not everything that’s written in a sefer is authoritative and accepted as normative halacha/hashkafah. How am I to judge if that’s the case when you, yourself don’t even know if that’s the case?
The Wolf
yeah, okay, sure, everyone should have sources. but that does include you. i’m cracking up at the sheer nerve you have to cite as fact you’re “logical” opinion on after death matters (which to me sound strangely unjewish to say at least) as fact, and to declare that you’re not even gonna look into it, as long as no one can prove you wrong. 😀 life must be simple for you.
i’m cracking up at the sheer nerve you have to cite as fact you’re “logical” opinion on after death matters (which to me sound strangely unjewish to say at least)
What is “unjewish” about the idea that marriage ends at death? The fact that the Torah allows a spouse to remarry after death is a very compelling proof to this. If marriage lasted beyond death, why would the Torah allow a wife to remarry?
and to declare that you’re not even gonna look into it, as long as no one can prove you wrong.
So you think I should look into every sefer in existence to find this, since my disputant can’t provide the name? Sorry… I’ve got a life to lead too.
And mind you, I never said that it doesn’t prove me wrong. I never said anything about proving my side at all — I simply asked my disputant to name his/her source. That’s a perfectly valid thing to do in a debate.
Frankly, I find the fact that I’m being taken to task for simply asking for the name of a sefer before accepting it as authoritative to be very unsettling.
The Wolf
Health, would you please clarify a question I had? Are you saying that in Olam Haba, Avigayil is married to Naval and Bas-sheva, the mother of Shlomo HaMelech, is married to Uriah? Neither can be married to Dovid HaMelech, since each married him after the death of her spouse, correct? Thanks.
What is “unjewish” about the idea that marriage ends at death?”
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn’t the only religion that seems to believe that marriage continues after death, Hindu? They (used to) take it to the extreme of throwing the widow on the funeral pyre of the husband (did they likewise throw a husband on the funeral pyre of his late wife?)but the rest of us believe marriage ends when one of the spouses dies.
but isn’t the only religion that seems to believe that marriage continues after death, Hindu?
The Suttee practice was outlawed in India a long time ago.
In the LDS church, you can be sealed in a marriage which transcends death.
The Wolf
1. i thought one is buried next to the spouse they had children with.
2. i thought the halacha is that a woman can never remarry her first husband once she marries someone else. therefore, how can she remarry #1 when moshiach comes?
Frankly, I find the fact that I’m being taken to task for simply asking for the name of a sefer before accepting it as authoritative to be very unsettling.
I agree. Health, you may very well be right, but you should find the source. If you remember it, it’s fine for you, but difficult to convince someone else that way.
1. What is she had children with both?
2. I believe that is only applicable in divorce, not death.
2. i thought the halacha is that a woman can never remarry her first husband once she marries someone else. therefore, how can she remarry #1 when moshiach comes?
Good point, but maybe that’s only before they died.
2. I believe that is only applicable in divorce, not death.
No, the halacha is clear. She cannot return to her first husband whether the second husband divorced her or died.
Of course, the Torah didn’t state what happens if the first husband dies simply because it would be very difficult for him to remarry her after he dies. 🙂
The Wolf
anon for this – “Health, would you please clarify a question I had? Are you saying that in Olam Haba, Avigayil is married to Naval and Bas-sheva, the mother of Shlomo HaMelech, is married to Uriah? Neither can be married to Dovid HaMelech, since each married him after the death of her spouse, correct? Thanks.”
I’m not the biggest Talmid Chochom in the world, esp. since I can’t recall names of seforim. But I guess it is better to have some of the knowledge, than just to make it up because they are unwilling to look into it.
I’ll try and guess. The Gemorrah talks a lot about Zivug Rishon & Zivug Sheini. I think the Gemorrah says that Zivug Rishon is the main one. It could be those original marriages were those to their Zivug Sheini and Dovid Hamelech whom they were the Zivug Rishon to -married them secondary. There weren’t be a problem of Aishes Ish because once you’re not an Aishes Ish due to death, it wouldn’t come back. The reason, I think after Techias Hamaysim you go back to your first husband is because it is your main Zivug or Zivug Rishon.
Or you could say Ain Hochi Nami, in the next world they will go back to their first marriages. So why did Dovid have to marry them at all? Maybe Hashem wanted these children only to come out from these Zivugim.
But I guess it is better to have some of the knowledge, than just to make it up because they are unwilling to look into it.
Again, I didn’t just make it up – I provided a logical reason for my theory. And I’m not unwilling to look it up — I just want you to tell me where to look. I don’t have the time to search every possible sefer to find your source. If you bring the source, it’s your job (not mine) to reference it.
But hey, you want a source, I’ll give you one. The Rambam (quoting the Gemara) famously says that there is no difference between Olam HaZeh and Olam HaBah except for shibud malchios. So, since in this world marriage is terminated at death and the surviving spouse is free to marry anyone else, so too in Olam HaBah marriage is terminated at death and the spouse is free to marry anyone else.
The Wolf
Of course, the Torah didn’t state what happens if the first husband dies simply because it would be very difficult for him to remarry her after he dies. 🙂
It would also be difficult for him to marry his ex-wife after she died. That was my point when I wrote maybe that’s only before they died.
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