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Satmar doesn’t “preach” the dismantlement of the state of israel. They pray that it should come to an end without any blood being shed as it’s believed to be the major impediment to the final redemption.
If they are only ‘praying’
How does Sen Shumer know about satmar shita ???Why is Sen Shumer quoting Satmar when he tries to explain away his negative stance re the medina [and memeila its citizens ???]
.To summarize –
1] The whole idea of 3 shevuot binding halaha lema’aseh today is a davar hashanuy bemahloket.2] Even if it does apply today in a halaha binding fashion, It is very possible that the establishment of the medina does not contravene it, because of the Mandate [based on the Balfour Declaration] which required a national home and self-governing institutions in EY and the acceptance of 1947 Partition Plan in the UN.
3] Even if the establishment of the medina was against the torah, the continued existence of the medina is not.
4] Even if the continued existence is against the 3 shevuoth , which has no logic at all , its existence is still imperative because of mass pikuach nefesh which is doche the 3 shevuoth.
Since the only matter before us now is the continued existence [and not the establishment] of the medina, we can resolve that there is no inherent issur in the existence of the medina.
We have to make sure to the best of our ability that the medina should be a vehicle for torah true ideals and not chvsh the opposite.
And that it should be a vehicle to safeguard yehudim as much as possible.
Because the medina should not be an idol with the yehudim serving it.
Aderaba , the medina should be serving the yehudim , that way it will not be an idol, and it will come to its tikun.
.Yankel Berel, that’s a perfect map of the Shitos.
Satmar agrees to 4. Typical mainstream Frum approach is 3, as quoted from the קריינא דאיגרתא and as is evident from the actions of Aguda. I subscribe to 2.
And the main campaign against the groups were, as Avira referred to, because of their Apikursus. And that’s something of the past.
Something brought up sometimes — although not mentioned yet on this thread — is the argument: If the new state is such a great thing, how can it be that HKBH established it through sinners and heretics? This is indeed puzzling. Most people just shrug it off with בהדי כבשא דרחמנא. And surely you cannot form a דעה on a קשיא. Then there’s the ציץ אליעזר who says that it was done purposely this way to show that it came from above and not through religious yearning.
Or, like most good things on this planet, they come from anyone as long as it’s not of religious content. In other words, if you think of the state as someone holy, you have a קשיא. If it is totally secular, and part of a bigger plan, no קשיא.
HaLeiVi: How can you subscribe to “2”, considering the fact that Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria were never given to the State of Israel by the UN resolution or any other international or national authorization?
In fact, the UN and the world has consistently and always stated that Israel has no right, and never had any rights, to continue to occupy any areas outside of the Green Line.
And regarding your last point, you seem to imply that you think the State is a “great thing” Why?
And, as mentioned other times, the RBS”O also wanted to happen and allowed the Holocaust, Tach Vtat, the Crusades, the Churban, the Inquisition, multiple expulsions and blood libels. The fact that “it happened” doesn’t demonstrate that we’re happy about it and it’s great.
@haleivi
satmar agrees to 4 ?
Does not seem like it.Satmar holds that the existence itself is yehareig ve’al yaavor.
They seem to hold that 3 shevuot is doche pikuach nefesh.
Untenable , in my view.Thats why they are happy to be used to stop arms shipments .
.@haleivi
If the new state is such a great thing, how can it be that HKBH established it through sinners and heretics? This is indeed puzzling. Most people just shrug it off with בהדי כבשא דרחמנא. And surely you cannot form a דעה on a קשיא. Then there’s the ציץ אליעזר who says that it was done purposely this way to show that it came from above and not through religious yearning.
[haleivi]
—–
There is a Rambam in his hakdama to Mishnayot Zra;im
That sometimes the RBSH’O causes a rasha to build a palace in order that years later a hasid should be able to rest in its shade.
Rambam references that principle to the pasuk “Yahin Rasha, vTsadik Yilbash”
.
Who knows – maybe the medina is the same ??
.@ujm
regarding the shtahim , Jrslm , the West Bank, and the Golan , that is a clear situation of p/n .
Which is doche the issur [if applicable] of the shevuoth.Is there any rejoinder to this ?
.UJM,
You won’t agree regardless, and I’m not sure you agree to the fourth point. Why haggle over step 2?I’m not ready to go back and forth, others did that already. You can argue about many smaller aspects,, whether winning territory through a legitimate war is מרידה באומות. And I’m not all that invested in it, either.
Most people would say it’s a great development for the Jewish people, if not for being predisposed not to like it. Rav Ovadia Yosef spelled it all out, the merits and the shortcomings. You can’t ignore the Gemara in Sanhedrin 98 that אין לך קץ מגולה מזה, that the land is bearing fruit and it is a clear sign of the impending Geula. Oh, and that’s a good thing.
It’s not technically correct to say that Hashem wanted bad things to happen. כן ישיש משיש אחרים.
“Most people would say it’s a great development for the Jewish people, if not for being predisposed not to like it.”
Most Jews would say it’s great that Jews can get a cheeseburger at McDonald’s on their drive to work on Shabbos.
“You can’t ignore the Gemara in Sanhedrin 98 that אין לך קץ מגולה מזה, that the land is bearing fruit and it is a clear sign of the impending Geula. Oh, and that’s a good thing.”
The land was bearing fruit before 1948 at an increasing rate.
UJM, you got into circular logic. Yes, getting the sandwich of your will when you want it is great. But it’s against Halacha. Most people consider the state a great thing, besides for those who take issue with it for other reasons, as I already said.
Your last line is not really true, it is an open fact that only recently has the land born fruit. I don’t care about the insignificant aspect of the year 1948. Are you suggesting that the Gemara got it wrong? Is it just a mysterious Agadeta with secret meaning?
And again, this is rehashed stuff.
@haleivi
The state – a great thing ?
Not that sure .
Considering the amount of Jewish physical victims offered for it
and the amount of Jewish spiritual victims offered for it.There are a few positives too.
But turning the clock back , knowing what we know now . If we could have stopped zionism and the medina from taking off , at the time, I think on the balance we should have stopped them .
Yes.
.Spiritual victims were mainly before the declaration, and I’m the very early years. We couldn’t do anything about that, and we tried.
Afterwards, it actually was a tremendous preserver of Jewish identity which allowed for future Balei Teshuva, as well as Russian Jews holding out thanks to pride in being part of a real nation.
It’s hard to judge the physical aspect, and luckily it’s not my job.
yankel > If we could have stopped zionism and the medina from taking off , at the time, I think on the balance we should have stopped them .
And, then, what – keep even more Jews in Russia and Poland so that they could be killed by Commies or Nazis or join Commies?
Huge Masses of Sephardi Jews lost their heritage ,courtesy of our State.
Besides the Askenazi Jews.
Rabim Halalim Hipila.@aaq
1] Without political Zionism, the Arabs and the British could/ would have been more accommodating to Jewish immigration . Who can know for sure but there is logic to it.
2] Even if not , the price paid was very ,very high. Too high.
Square, the vayoel Moshe deals with this arizal quite extensively. I don’t understand it because I’m not a mekubal. Funny how zionists who dismiss kabalah when it comes to kedushah inyonim and nissim suddenly are very into the arizal..
Avira, it doesn’t sound like anyone is into anything. It wasn’t quoted or normally referenced. We were all supposed to take this passed-around, non-descript reference on faith, and somehow be blown away by it.
What is puzzling is that the same people who throw words like ‘agadeta’ to dismiss a Gemara that literally discussed how it applies, will turn use a passing comment in another context from within a Kabalistic passage to apply to Halachah.
The only common denominator: Choose what you want to justify pre-existing notions.
yankel > Huge Masses of Sephardi Jews lost their heritage ,courtesy of our State…
> Without political Zionism, the Arabs and the British could/ would have been more accommodating to Jewish immigrationWe now have a benefit of hindsight. Let’s use it (but not think that we are smarter than people who were making decision at the time, of course).
We now see how Arab countries developed over decades. Some of that was tied into Israel, but most went independent of that – oil monopolies; kings and mild dictators at best; otherwise – socialists; tribal warfare; Islamic fundamentalists; terrorists. Without Israel, Sephardi Jews would live in those countries, and Jews in Palestine would be under a similar regime. Maybe some would have escaped to Americas, Europe and Africa. Think of Aleppo Jews being prosecuted by ISIS like Yazidis were – or by Assad senior or juinior… Under Khomeini … Qaddafi …
Non-religious Ashkenazi Jews who went to kibbutzim might by now have grandchildren in yeshivos and tzahal. Their cousins who went to Americas are pretty likely to have grandchildren at pro-Hamas demonstrations…
All Ashkenazi Jews who did not make it to Palestine before WW2, and those who would be stuck in DP camps and in Soviet Gulag. Many Ukrainians and Russian in Western DP camps after Nazi camps were deported back to USSR where they went straight to Soviet camps (for being traitors and not fighting till death). If not Israel, many eastern europian Jews would have gone from the DP camps in the same direction. Many Polish Jews who did not take Soviet citizenship when in Soviet captivity returned to Poland and then were able to go to Israel, or left USSR with Polish Anders Army (like Menachem Begin). We are talking large number of people here. (True, some of the saved Polish children from religious families were forced to go to anti-religious kibbutzim – not so much because kibbutzim wanted to re-educate them, but every community taking children was paid a stipend, so all communities competed for having more of them).
I think these numbers add up to a positive, if we look at them without prejudice.
There was also a tremendous revival baal-teshuva movement in USA after the six day war. Whatever the original non-religious motivation of price was at that, it undeniable lead to many many people do teshuva and becoming observant.
The common denominator we can all agree to is to daven for the peaceful dismantlement of the State.
And Moshiach establishing a Jewish Kingdom under the Davidic Dynasty.
When have you ever distinguished between Satmar and the modern day NK? When have you ever distinguished between ameratzim and the Satmar Rov, with your constant assumption that you can refute his entire sefer without having absorbed it from cover to cover?
@pekak [to square]
… with your constant assumption that you can refute his [satmar rovs] entire sefer without having absorbed it from cover to cover ?
===================
There is no need to absorb satmar ravs sefer from cover to cover .One can safely rely on the overwhelming majority of Gdolei Yisrael who were familiar with his sefer from cover to cover , and still disregarded his conclusions.
He was a very great man, but his shitah was not accepted .
This is a fact.
.@ujm
CORRECTION
The common denominator we can all agree to is to daven for the peaceful well being of all the yehudim and the whole world.Without giving HKBH any etsot how to run His world .
If He wants it , then mashiach will take over the State – without any ‘dismantlement’ . And if He wants , then He will dismantle it, hopefully peacefully.
Not up to us to dictate how He should run His world.
Nor is it allowed for us to contribute to any danger to any yehudi in EY.
Publicizing that we want the peaceful dismantlement of the State, will knock US support for Israel, which is critical for the yehudims safety .
So by extension , ujm [and fellow travelers] might have blood on their hands if their position will be used to stop support for Israel.
.
>>>When have you ever distinguished between Satmar and the modern day NK?
This question wasn’t directed at me but I’ll answer. While I’m strongly opposed to the more extreme anti-Zionist groups I definitely do distinguish between (1)Brisk (2)Satmar (3) The NK. With Brisk it’s an haskafa I don’t agree with but I have no issue with them having it (as long as they aren’t obsessed with the topic-but that would be true about opposition to any group, nothing to do with Zionism per ser) With Satmar I do have issue with some of what they say and do but it remains within the realm of an haskafa I disagree with. (3)The current NK are absolute rashoyim
The above said, one thing is indisputable, The NK is an outgrowth of opposition to Zionism. So are many of the secular vitriolically anti Torah and anti-Zionist secular Jewish American groups . If you go with the anti-Zionist ideology which ascribes quilt to all Zionists even for the actions of people who are long dead, then all anti-Zionists are responsible for those groups too. Particularly the NK.
@AAQ
True, some of the saved Polish children from religious families were forced to go to anti-religious kibbutzim – not so much because kibbutzim wanted to re-educate them…..
==============================
Come on.
This was a direct attempt at shmad.
Not for any remuneration.
There was a concerted effort to shmad those children.> This was a direct attempt at shmad.
In some cases, it might have been. In specific cases, I read and talked with people about, all communities, non-religious and religious, were also interested in money paid for hosting the orphans. Not everything is about ruchniyos, especially in difficult times.
The Vayoel Moshe is very strongly against both settling in Israel and cooperation with the Zionists. Yet The Satmar rebbe zt”l himself tried moving to Eretz Yisroel twice- once in the 30’s in attempt to take over the Eida Chareidis from Rav Dushinsky, and once after the war to establish a new kehilla. As well, he cooperated with the Zionists to leave Hungary. So quoting the Vayoel Moshe as THE authoritative viewpoint when its author clearly didn’t think so it a bit sketchy.
This isn’t to whitewash the sins of the Zionists, to be sure. They were reshaim.
Learn – did you ever read vayoel moshe?
He in no place says not to live in eretz yisroel. He,as you noted, did so, and sent some chasidim there. He was against making mass immigration there or making a state. Huge difference.
@avirah
As well, he cooperated with the Zionists to leave Hungary.
[lernt to avirah]
———————-
You did not answer to this one . Is it Mutar to cooperate with Zionists according to vayoel moshe ?Yankel: That claim is a complete falsehood. His Chasidim bought, and fully paid for, a train ticket out of Hungary from a Zionist Nazi-collaborator by the name of Rudolf Kastner. This Zionist Nazi collaborator was working hand in hand with Adolf Eichmann ym’s to mass murder Hungarian Jewry. Kastner knew Aushwitz was a death camp. Kastner knew Eichmann intended to mass deport Hungarian Jews to Aushwitz. Kastner never publicized these facts to Hungarian Jewry, who was unaware they were to be deported to a death camp for immediate murder upon arrival, prior to the deportations — despite his knowledge of what was about to occur. In fact, Kastner lied to Hungarian Jewry and told them they would be taken by the trains to work camps and released at the end of the war.
Why did Rudolf Kastner help Adolf Eichmann murder half a million Hungarian Jews? Because Eichmann, who was friends with Kastner and used Kastner to keep Hungarian Jews quiet and compliant, promised Kastner that he’d get a train for him to help escape from Hungary anyone he wanted. Kastner filled up a majority of the passengers of that train with his immediate family, his extended family and his Hungarian Zionist colleagues and friends. The remaining minority of seats he sold at full price for his profit, and one of those was purchased by the Chasidim for the Rebbe.
After the war was already over, and the Nazis defeated, Kastner testified in Nuremberg, at the Nazi war crimes trials, ON BEHALF OF NAZIS who were his friends, and succeeded in getting a Nazi officer acquitted at trial. After the war a secular Israeli Zionist killed Kastner due to his Nazi collaboration and responsibility for the murder of half a million Jews.
Yankel, if by collaboration you mean joining the government, then no, the satmar rov holds that’s assur.
If you mean on an individual level, like a business partner, then it’s no different than a goy and you can.
If you’re referring to working with them to save jews during the Holocaust, then nobody every said that’s not allowed.
If Kastner really had everyone fooled that they would be taken by the trains to work camps and released at the end of the war (which was imminent) why did Satmar Chasidim get involved with such haschabrus l’resoyim and buy tickets for the Rebbe to join him and all the other Zionists on that train?
As an aside my wife’s great aunt who was neither a Zionist nor wealthy was on the Kastner train. How she managed to get on it remains a mystery but people like her and many others who I can think of who are on that were on the train certainly indicate that the train wasn’t overwhelmingly dominated by Zionists and the Kastner family
@ujm
How much did the ticket cost ?
What is the name of the person who paid Kastner ?Smerel, that’s not hischabrus.
>>>Smerel, that’s not hischabrus.
Even if it isn’t (I’m not conceding on that point ) UJM is accusing the Satmar Rebbe and his Chasidim of what is akin is buying their way into benefiting from what is lot worse than a mafia deal. If they have no problem dealing with and benefiting from such people and such deals when it suits their purposes then they can also do such things when it comes to dealing with the Israeli government for the sake of Torah today too.
Even the Edah Hacheridis own haskafa literature concedes that they would accomplish a lot more for Torah and the frum world if they took the approach of the Chazon Ish who (among other ways he differed from them in how to deal with things ) said that being in the knesset for the sake of Torah is not hischabrus l’resoyim.
Smerel, rav aharon Kotler dealed, in fact, with mafia people to get money to save Jews in Europe. There’s a famous story mentioned in mishnas reb aharon with a mob boss who was so impressed with rav aharon that he didn’t even want his money back, and instead asked for a blessing. Rav aharon couldn’t wish him hatzlacha, because of his criminality, so he bentched him that he should die on his sickbed, and not from being killed. The boss was extremely happy with this blessing, and indeed survived many gunshots, dying at a ripe old age.
Was rav aharon being “mischaber” with the mafia? No. Neither sas rav michoel ber weissmandl when he worked with secularists.
The difference between the above and agudah’s shitah is that joining a government shows your approval thereof,not that agudah actually does approve of it, but they work on laws, committees, meetings, they are literally part of the state. Agudah holds this is ok for their reasons, and satmar says it’s not. That’s the machlokes. It has nothing to do with who you can work for and who you can make deals with to save Jews.
>>>Smerel, rav aharon Kotler dealed, in fact, with mafia people to get money to save Jews in Europe.
Even assuming that story is true it has no comparison to what the Satmar Rebbe is being accused of RAK (allegedly) was looking to save people’s lives and turned to the mafia for help. No one was hurt in the process and the mafia was not helped in the process . What the Satmar Rebbe is being accused of is that there was a murderous deal being made with Nazis. When he heard about it he and his chasidim ran to the one making the deal and offered them money to get in on the deal too.
You can argue that the deal would have been made anyway so there was no issue with them buying their way in. That is no different than saying the knesset and the state of Israel will be there anyway. Let us do what we can to work with them for the sake of Torah
The stories about rav aharon in mishnas reb aharon were told by talmidim and nobody came out and said there were glaring mistakes, and it was published when a LOT of original talmidim, like rav chaim Epstein, rav Meir Hershkowitz, rav laiby dicker, etc….were still active.
I doubt the askanim who arranged the satmar rov’s ticket were aware of what kastner had done to procure that train. The truth only came out later; if they did know, the satmar rov would have exposed it to save yidden.
“You can argue that the deal would have been made anyway so there was no issue with them buying their way in. That is no different than saying the knesset and the state of Israel will be there anyway. Let us do what we can to work with them for the sake of Torah”
If the interaction would be one-off then yes, but we’re talking about being entrenched in it consistently. Big difference.
>>>The stories about rav aharon in mishnas reb aharon were told by talmidim and nobody came out and said there were glaring mistakes,.
Mishnas Rav Ahron does not have stories, the person who allegedly made the mafia contact was Irvin Bunim , his son Amos Bunim, insisted that the story can’t be true because his father had no mafia contacts. A grandson of Rav Ahron Kotler also told me there is no credible source for this story. I do not have any haskafa issue with the story being true
>>>I doubt the askanim who arranged the satmar rov’s ticket were aware of what kastner had done to procure that train.
Some of the Zionist leaders accused in Perfidy made that exact same claim of ignorance (and many other lines of defense) about themselves in relation to their behavior during the holocaust. And they were a lot further removed from the scene.
>>>If the interaction would be one-off then yes, but we’re talking about being entrenched
What is the halachachic criteria and basis for “entrenched” ?
In 1955, The Satmar Rebbe zt”l was working on building certain areas in Yerushalayim and Bnei Brak. As he needed the cooperation of various Israeli officials, he moderated his position to just be a ban on general elections but not on municipal elections. So the Satmar Rebbe zt”l, could be quite practical in terms of dealing with Zionists and cooperating with them. These developments could also be said to be a violation of oleh kechoma and yet the Satmar Rebbe zt”l allowed them. ( (Neturei Karta wasn’t happy with this distinction to be sure, and they made a mechaah about the Satmar Rebbe’s heter for municpal voting). This is along with his practical cooperation with the Zionists to escape Hungary on the Kastner train, and his change in tone in the thirties when he moved to Eretz Yisroel tried to take control of the Eida Chareidis from Rav Dushinsky zt”l, and moderated some of his positions on encouraging sttlement in Eretz yisroel . As such, it’s safe to say that maaseh rav- if the Satmar Rebbe zt”l didn’t take every word of the Divrei Yoel as Torah Misinai then kol shekein to those of us who aren’t Satmar.
As an aside , “The Satmar Rebbe didn’t pay for his Kastner train ticker the chassidim did” is one of the weakest deflections I have seen in this whole thread. Nobody pointed a gun at the head of the Satmar Rebbe zt”l and demanded that he take the train. He could have stayed behind and refused to go and cooperate with the Zionists. he didn’t and maaseh rav. One can cooperate with the Zionists for practical reasons, as paskened by the Satmar Rebbe zt”l himself.Yankel, if by collaboration you mean joining the government, then no, the satmar rov holds that’s assur.
If you mean on an individual level, like a business partner, then it’s no different than a goy and you can.
If you’re referring to working with them to save jews during the Holocaust, then nobody every said that’s not allowed.
——————————-
Saving Jews in Europe is mutar .
Saving Jews in EY is assur ?
Ma nishtana ?Smerel, i was referring to the English biography that came out in the early 2000s, it was called mishnas reb aharon, in addition to an English title i don’t recall, something “maran rav aharon.” It was painstakingly researched. But if it’s disputed then so be it – I don’t think it’s very difficult to get in touch with the mafia… just ask some no good’niks and flash some cash. mafia men don’t act anonymously; they’re known people with public personas and high profile lives, especially in those days…police were honestly afraid to start up with the big crime families, and they actually made the streets safer for the average person, as they didn’t rob random people that they didn’t have “business” with, and petty criminals were also afraid of them.
Anyways, entrenched means publicly associating with them b’kevius, permanently, in a set way.
Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own – that’s different than the Nazis. Plus, there’s no active genocide in eretz yisroel – if it would be that kind of situation, the satmar rov would have no problem cooperating with whoever is available to save jewish lives
@avirah
Yankel, the zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own – that’s different than the Nazis. Plus, there’s no active genocide in eretz yisroel – if it would be that kind of situation, the satmar rov would have no problem cooperating with whoever is available to save jewish lives
[avirah to yb]
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1] Zionists caused the Arab threat. Let them handle it on their own ….
This seems to be the one of the most incomprehensible arguments I ‘ve ever heard.
Will Hatsole also operate under this assumption?
If someone causes himself harm, Hatsole is not coming ???Its your fault , you created the problem , fix it yourself. Can you in your wildest dreams hear them saying this and refuse to come ??
Why is EY any different ?Heard of the Lav of Lo Taamod Al Dam Reacha . But – Have not heard of any exemption even remotely close to your argument.
2] …Plus, there’s no active genocide in eretz yisroel –
Utterly incomprehensible.
If not for the IDF , Hashem Yishmor , there would be an active genocide.
Al pi derech hateva , the only thing standing in the way of a genocide is the IDF.The most recent vivid example is the hundreds of innocent victims ahenu bnei yisrael, who were murdered like cattle and stray dogs by vicious barbarians who cannot wait to repeat the same on to all yehudi inhabitants [hashem yishmor]
Dal mehachi the IDF , you have a full fledged genocide right around the corner.
Remember the Secretary General of the Arab League proclaiming, without any shame whatsoever, in front of the whole world : “The Massacres of the Mongols will pale in comparison.”Reality is quite pesky , you cannot wish it away …..
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