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Avira so you think the Ponovezher Rav wasn’t following the Torah when he said that? Or when he flew the Israeli flag in front of the yeshiva, and didn’t say Tachnun on Yom Ha’atzmaut?
Da, the ponevezher rov did not believe in nationalism, as in the idolatrous belief that klal yisroel is a nation by virtue of anything besides the Torah. Nor did he think that Hashem supports the reshoim.
He had hakaras hatov for having a place to live relatively safely after the war. Nothing more. Talk to any ponevezher talmidim – and look who succeeded him as rosh yeshiva! There were never any fundamental disagreements between the rav and rav shach.
It’s great that you looked up the Gemara I mentioned.
So you quote the Gemara exactly in backwards order in other to create a Machlokes and a fake Hachraa. The Gemara first mentions Rebbi Yochanan, and then the Braysa of Rebbi Yosi, and after that another Braysa of Rebbi Akiva.
Rashi writes
נתנה התורה ממשלה בה – כלומר אפילו תראה אותו נביא מושל ועושה כרצונו דכתיב ונתן אליך אות או מופת
So he explained Rebbi Yosi’s words as the Torah agreeing to the mindset of the viewer that believes it to be a מופת בשמים.Notice. Rebbi Yosi does not say נתן הקב”ה ממשלה. He says נתנה התורה, in other words, he is not speaking of actual power being given, but rather a seeming admission of power was given to them by the fact that Total mentions their activities as a matter of fact.
You decided to bring a proof straight from the Pasuk that it actually can happen, and no one says yhat in this Sugya, but we have Rebbi Akiva saying explicitly that it cannot happen and that the Pasuk can’t Even be discussing it, while the others don’t reinterprate the Pasuk.
I don’t think they taught you in Yeshiva to quote s Gemara backwards. They might have taught you to look around, for example Avoda Zara 55 and try to quote that as proof.
One thing you certainly learned not to do is to Darshen your own Pesukim.
And then you be Megaleh Torah Shelo Kehalachah and twist Rebbi Akiva’s words like that. What is that if not agenda driven interpretation? You’re gonna say that Rebbe Akiva “didn’t say it was impossible, rather “chas veshalom””, while he literally reinterprated the Pasuk because of it? So Rebbe Shimon also held that yhe Torah will be forgotten because he said חס ושלום שתשתכח?
Next step is calling me almost MO, then zionism, neo chabad and modern orthodoxy/haskala/”rationalism”, and then, of course, you complain about all hominem attacks.
This topic is dumb. 4/5ths of the Jews in the time of Moshe also didn’t acknowledge the miracles. When Ezra went back to Israel, the majority of Jews and Rabbanim also didn’t go back.
Morale of the story, it doesn’t matter how much Torah you think you have or what your gadolntells you. In both cases, history has shown that they were both wrong and we are still being punished for it today!
Don’t mess with Eretz Yisroel, ever!anon1m0us, if you are following Halachah and seriously studying the Torah Shebal Peh to find דבר השם, you are not guessing.
Not to believe in Torah Shebal Peh is the main problem.
Halevi, where do you see Rashi deviating from the pashut teitch of the machlokes?
Rebbe yossi says even if the navi makes the sun stand still in the sky, don’t listen to him to do avodah zara.
rebbe akiva says “chas veshalom that Hakadosh baruch hu would make the sun stop for ovrei retzono”
If we’re talking only about how it looks to a viewer, why would rebbe Akiva reject that Hashem would do it – according to you, even rebbe yossi never said He would.
As for your diyuk in the lashon of the braysoh, the fact that the “Torah” gave AZ power is no different than the “Torah” “giving” permission for things; the same way the beginning of the maamar is that the Torah understood the depths of how AZ works… it’s Hashem who made the Torah eithe way.
Look at Rashi on the pasuk; he comes laafukei your diyuk between Hashem/Torah on the word memshalah. Rashi on the pasuk writes that the miracle will happen either in the sky אות), or the land (מופת) and that אעפ”כ, לא תשמע לו, וא”ת מפני מה
נותן לו הקב”ה ממשלה לעשות אות, כי מנסה ה….The rambaN on the pasuk is somewhat mashma that the miracles done by a false navi have a limit. We already saw nissim that was huge by yetzias mirzrayim and we heard directly from Hashem not to worship other gods, so we shouldn’t look at the false navis osos umofsim.
But Rashi clears up any confusion about the existence of such miracles.
On to the “chas veshalom” thing – it’s not my main argument. And i agree partially with your example of rebbe shimon; i also think that the nisyonos of bias hamoshiach are unique, as stated by the above.
And i didn’t read the gemara backwards – rebbe yochanan is quoted first, but that doesn’t mean that the maskanah is not like him. He is an amora and halacha k’basra, we follow amoraim because they knew what the tannaim said and still said their statements. I’m sorry if i presented it as if the gemara sequentially went with rebbe yochanan – you’re correct that it did not, but that would only he significant if we’re talking about shitos of other amoraim, where sequence shows us the maskanah.
I must add that Rabbeinu Chananel does explicitly describe Rebbe Akiva as arguing on Rebbi Yosi, although they are not addressing each other because they are not in one Braysa. However, that being the case, Rabbeinu Chananel does on to say that we accepted Rebbe Akiva’s view.
Also, you’re not addressing the other point, that the gemara is talking only about a navi and not the soton.
You also can’t fool people into thinking that the sun is standing still.. The whole premise is off
I don’t have a rabbeini chananel where i am right now, but i looked around and saw an aruch laner which says that rebbe yossi means that the false navi will do miracles through kishuf. He asks a kashya on rebbe akiva that if the miracles were done when the navi was true, why would the pasuk say “for Hashem is testing you” – you should have indeed listened to him when he did the miracles, because he was a valid navi, so what about the osos umofsim is a test? He writes the beginning of a terutz but it got lost…he writes “veyesh lomar” and the piece ends. Or it could mean he had a terutz but didn’t write it for some reason.
HaLeivi,
That’s exactly what the rabbonim in the times of Ezra said! And look what it got us? More Galus!!!
I am sure the Meraglim, who were also B’nai Torah, Rabbanim, and who were nassim, Great men, holier than anyone you named in your posts, also said it’s not good to go up. The 7 nations, you only have Zionist… 🤔
You can believe whatever you want, just like the Meraglim and and all other Rabbanim and Jews who refused to enter eretz Yisroel, and all for good reasons too! I’ll err on the side of the avos, Moshe, yehoshua, Ezra, nechemia and all other Jews who went to the land that hashem promised.If you feel Zionists are bad, boy, you should have lived in the times of the Bais Hamikdash!!! It was terrible!!!!!!
Ezra had a nevuah. And where does it say that the rabbonim didn’t listen to Ezra?
All we have to understand anything about Torah is the unbroken chain of mesorah from chazsl, rishonim, achronim and today’s gedolim. Without them we are blind, like tzedukim. Either you accept Torah shebaal peh and tue authority of thw rabbonim or you do don’t – there’s no middle way. It’s either Hashem or the ba’al.
Want to know what would have happened if the yidden would have listened to the zionists and gone to Eretz yisroel in the 30s? The Nazis came within a day of going to yerushalayim. There would have just been a slaughter there instead of in Europe. Because Hashem runs the world and makes decrees.
Do teshuva. If you think there’s some sort of difference between chazals authority in saying that writing or picking a leaf are assur on Shabbos despite it being effortless, and chazals statement that one who belittles the chachamim is a heretic and loses their eternity (because your ilk will repulsively, instinctively say ‘the rabbis are saying you need to listen to them ‘),….think long and hard about the state of your spiritual life, what you watch, look at, listen to, read, and eat. Think about who your friends are. Think about how you learn, if you ever do so, and if you’ve ever been able to go through a maaracha of reb akiva eiger. Think – are you any more spiritually mature than when you were in high school and thought you knew better than your rebbeim?
Now Avira knows exactly what *could* have happened in WW2! He knows that if the Jews had gone to Eretz Yisrael, the Nazis would have attacked there!
He claims Chabad has an issue with a false Navi, but doesn’t see anything wrong with his claiming to know exactly what would have happened had people made other choices…
Avira, you’re like the story I said in the earlier Chabad thread. You shoot your arrow (anti-Zionist) and then draw the target around it.For the record.
The ponevezher rav flew the flag because of shlomo shel malhut.
much like he would fly the union jack in britain and the stars and stripes in the usa.There is no record at least as far as I know about not saying tahanun on Yom Haatsmaut.
In his yeshiva they do say tahanun on Yom haatsmaut. They said when the rav was alive and afterwards when his son R avraham was the nasi of the yeshiva, and they still do now.
In both ‘branches’.
In r tzv markovits’ yeshiva and in r eliezer kahanemans yeshiva.@avira
On Purim, we were threatened with annihilation. Did we make a SJDF(Shushan Jewish Defense Force)?No. We davened, and did teshuva, and the gezerah was batul. That’s the lesson of Purim, to recognize the source of our tzaros.
[avira]
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You are only half right.After the gezerah was botul there WAS a SJDF in shushan – and in the other cities.
Who fought the amalekim ? For one day / for two days ?On what day was the Yomtov of Purim proclaimed ? On the day the King changed his decree ,or
on the day the SJDF finished its work ?The miracle was only complete after the SJDF acted.
Da, it’s not my theory, the brisker rov famously said it when rommel was repelled after the yidden in yerushalayim acted like they did during purim, instead of the freikeit that was in Europe and the zionist responses, like chaim weitzman declaring “war” on hitler in the name of jewry
>>>Want to know what would have happened if the yidden would have listened to the zionists and gone to Eretz yisroel in the 30s? The Nazis came within a day of going to yerushalayim. There would have just been a slaughter there instead of in Europe.
While that is possibly true for someone like you who believes that during the six day way when Israel was facing a multi national coalition and outnumbered in everything from soldiers, tanks, planes, artillery etc by a ratio of three to nine depending on the item, it was all no major problem. You’re talking the Israeli army here. Give them less than a week and they will have their enemies defeated, then you should also believe the Zionist arguments that had we had a state of our own at the time we would have repelled Nazi Germany too.
>>>He had hakaras hatov for having a place to live relatively safely after the war. Nothing more.
That already makes a major difference between the Ponevitcher Rav and most anti-Zionists. He had hakras hatov. He certainly did not look for confrontation. The lack of it and the confrontational always looking for a fight behavior that I saw among my fellow anti-Zionists was probably the biggest cause for my disillusionment from that movement and it’s beliefs (the group I was part of did not believe in the sitra achra business and did not believe that Israel had success in it’s wars due to Kochey V’otzem Yodey like some of the other anti-Zionist groups now do)
Rav Yosef Elya Henkin was very into the Shalos Shevous. He held that frum people should not vote or be in the knesset. BUT he also held that the anti-Zionist kanoim are no less guilty of violating the Shalos Shevous than the Zionists themselves are. Their confrontational behavior with the Zionists is also a violation of the Shalos Shevous (I think he said it in the name of Rav Chaim Ozer) See the end of the second volume of Kisve Rav Yosef Elya Henkin and some of the letters he wrote to Torah journals in the 1950s for an elaboaration
Can you please show me where it says Ezra was a Navi?? Which posek?
Hitler did not initially want to kill the jews. He wanted them out of Germany. If all the jews went to Eretz Yisroel, the Holocaust would not have happened. it only happened because Jews felt too comfortable to leave!!!!! Like the Jews in Egypt when Moshe told them too leave! Even after all the persecution, they still felt more comfortable in Egypt then going to Eretz Yisroel. The same analogy can be made with Europe.
Think about it, Germany never came to eretz yisroel!! All the ZIONIST that ran to our homeland survived. All the jews who disparaged and insulted eretz yisroel were murdered,
NEVER disparage eretz yisroel, no matter who is running the country! Eretz Yisroel is better now than in the times of the Bais Hamkidash!! The zionist support people learning! During the times of the Bayis, the kings killed the Talmedai Chachmim! And if you think the money is chazir, why to all the mosdos, including Satmur, take it?!?! Must not be that bad 🙂
Yankel, that action was not a violation of gezeras hagalus – if Hitler had given us permission to attack the SS soldiers who were trying to kill us, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Anon, satmar, Hungarian chasidim, yerushalmis and briskers don’t take a dime from the israeli government. You’re welcome to become one of them.
Those who allow it say that they’re recouping taxes taken illegally by the state, since it’s not a legitimate country, it has no right to take our taxes. Getting govt funding is just taking back our own money – this is how many in the Agudah explain the heter.
Anon – i never said Ezra was a navi. He had a mesorah of a nevuah that is open in yirmayahu, 29:10:
כִּֽי־כֹה֙ אָמַ֣ר ה” כִּ֠י לְפִ֞י מְלֹ֧את לְבָבֶ֛ל שִׁבְעִ֥ים שָׁנָ֖ה אֶפְקֹ֣ד אֶתְכֶ֑ם וַהֲקִמֹתִ֤י עֲלֵיכֶם֙ אֶת־דְּבָרִ֣י הַטּ֔וֹב לְהָשִׁ֣יב אֶתְכֶ֔ם אֶל־הַמָּק֖וֹם הַזֶּֽה׃The nevuah was that galus bavel was 70 years. Those 70 years were up, and now it was time to go back.
And from where do you know your statements about “eretz yisroel”? The same chazal you think we’re wrong about everything else you wrote! It’s a complete contradiction.
Like i said, it’s either baal or Hashem; there’s no other way.
For the record, no one’s talking bad about the land. That’s old fashioned zionist mumbo jumbo – we’re talking about keeping the laws of that land in the Torah, namely what Hashem told us to do with it and what not to do with it when in galus. The land is great, eretz hakedoshah, but we’re in galus and that’s not going to change by supporting a shmad state there.
Yankel, re ponevezher rov – i asked about this to one of my rebbeim, who’s a brisker and very antizionist. He confirmed that the rov did in fact not say tachanun, but explained it as i wrote above, rhat it was due to feeling hakaras hatov for the hatzalah after the war, not due to any nationalism or identification with zionism.
I missed the part about galus somehow being better than zman hamikdash….perhaps you need to read the translation of eichah and kinnos. We yearn for the beis hamikdash everyday….the giluy shchina, the avodah, these are things that are an ikkar of yiddishkeit. Chumash spends around 1/4 of its space on karbonos and the beis hamikdash/mishkan. It’s only the avodah zara of zionism that can make a person think that galus in eretz yisroel under an anti Torah government is better… believe me they don’t want to support Torah. They do it because 14% of the electorate demands it.
There is also no concept of a “homeland” in the Torah. That is zionist brainwashing; a nation needs a homeland, so zionists chose eretz yisroel. A nation needs a language, and that became farshmutzed Hebrew, it needs a history, and that became a twisted version of the Maccabees and kings.
All of that is nationalist nonsense.
We are a nation because of the Torah alone, rav saadya gaon famously writes. We don’t have a homeland. The Torah is our homeland. Hashem wrote in the Torah that “today you are a people for me” in the desert by matan Torah – we became a nation at matan Torah, not before or after. Eretz yisroel is a valuable tool, one of the most valuable! But it is not our homeland because such a concept doesn’t exist outside of the minds of secular historians and nationalistic heretics.
There are several letters that Chofetz Chaim published after an earthquake in EY in 1927. He mentions several other devastating events that happened shortly before, including flooding of Mississippi and then he enumerates aveiros that lead to that and that Klal Isroel should try to correct… a perfect setup to mention sins of Zionists and violations of Oaths. And he is not being shy in these letters – he calls on people to send kids to kosher schools, naming the opposite ones – yiddishistes, culturual schools, (Zionist affiliated?) Tarbut, Polish gymnasia, blaming them for anti-religious propaganda, including telling “Jewish” stories that excluded Torah contents; and Polish schools for leading to shabbos violations. What he does NOT mention in his criticism, as far as I can see – any sins by Zionists in EY, any mention of calls for Aliya in Poland, and, for that matter, any studies of math & science.
Aaq, the chofetz chaim was writing about sins of the frum people – why would he mention the secular zionists? He didn’t hold that merely living in eretz yisroel was a sin, nor does anyone else, even the satmar rov. Zionists like to peddle these tales of the ultra orthodox saying we shouldn’t live in EY, but that’s made up nonsense. The charedi yishuv was not guilty of any shvuos related issurim, hence the chofetz chaim makes no mention of it.
The secular studies thing is stretching it. Quit while you’re ahead.
>>>There is also no concept of a “homeland” in the Torah. That is zionist brainwashing;
As a random example ומפני חטאנו גלינו מארצנו is Zionist brainwashing? If you want to argue that in there is no reasons to return to Eretz Yisroel while golus continues that is one thing. Denying the importance of Eretz Yisroel in Judaism is another one of the krumer haskofas the extreme antizionists push.
Gedoley Torah like the Netziv did not support the Chovevy Tzion movement as a result of zionist brainwashing;
It is artzeinu, but that doesn’t mean “moledet” as described in zionist literature. We have lots of things; our mesorah, our beis hamikdash, our torah, our history – the land is meant to be ours as long as we deserve it and use it for its states purpose. But it is not a national homeland, because such a concept is non existent. we were born in midbar sinai, as chumash says openly, created as a nation by virtue of the Torah alone.
Eretz yisroel is of paramount importance in its opportunity to do mitzvos which only apply there.
I’m not taking away from that – I’m saying the term moledet was a nationalist import from non jewish sources, by people enamored by the European nationalism of the time…it was the , during the shift from kingdom and vassal state to nationalism that zionism was developed – as a direct result, copying and pasting it on to Judaism.
Stated purpose*
@Avira- you wrote “Ezra had a nevuah”. He knew of a neviah, but did not receive any neviah! And everyone did not believe in it or they would have gone up with him!!! Majority of the Jews stayed behind! It takes action! Yes, all the Tannaim, amoraim stayed behind and that is why we don’t a geula now!
You are stuck in the 1800’s! Zionists today are not what it was 100+ years ago! Talking about Shmad is ridiculous! If you are so anti Zionists, don’t accept their money and you won’t have any issue with the army. Plain and simple. Don’t be leach.
And yes, I would pick Bibi over King Yanni, King Manesha, Zechariah etc any day!!!! The problem why we don’t have the Bais Hamikdash is because YOU are not building it. You have done ZERO hishtaduls. Even Dovid, when he knew he can’t build it, prepared everything to be ready when it will be built. What have you prepared? What have you done?
All your ilk are the same. Zionism this, Zionism that! What have you done to bring moshiach? What have you done to rebuild the bayis? All I see is you taking money from a chazir because you justify why it’s ok.
Per the Torah, there will be multiple moshiachs (gasp) and they don’t even need to be Jewish!!! ( Blasphemy). But a true talmid chochim knows what I am talking about. So who said that Bibi is not a moshiach? Just because he doesn’t wear a straimel?Avira, it is true that Chofetz Chaim was talking to those who will listen to him and who were to at least some degree observant. But, there was no strict separation. For example, he writes that it is wrong to fathers to be observant themselves, while their wives and children break shabbos, read anti-religious papers and books, attend anti-religious schools. That is what was “frum society” in Poland in the 20s. It was under attack. He lists, by name, many organizations that he supports, and many, by name, that he is against. The fault in the organizations he objects to are wholesale rejection of Yiddishkeit, focusing on Jewish stories that omit religious content.
We also all know that Ch Ch endorsed Bais Yaakov. Despite that, I could not find any letters that advocate any organized education for women. He addresses the women directly several times – in letters and speeches in front of women conventions. He suggests women to organize to support chadarim, suggest for women who know how to read to teach those who do not know – specifically halochos niddah. In one letter, he summarizes all these laws in a couple of pages to help in that. I do not see him suggesting ways to teach those illiterate women how to read.
Anon, i told you where the nevuah is. It’s an open pasuk; when i said “had” i meant he was in possession of the nevuah given by yirmiyahu decades before.
Not everyone listened; that was a mistake. However the same Hashem who told us to go back told us not to go back again en masse until moshiach comes.
Your preference for a false leader over a king anointed by a navi, evil as they may have been, means nothing to me.
Elisha ate meat from the table of Izevel, who was steeped in idolatry. This is because the aseres hashvatim kept every other mitzva meticulously; their meat was kosher lemahadrin, fit for a navi Hashem to eat.
Meanwhile Netanyahu eats treif and makes goyim think it’s not so important, if “your leader” isn’t careful…this was a taynoh of European countries that outlawed shechitah.
@avirah
Yankel, that action was not a violation of gezeras hagalus – if Hitler had given us permission to attack the SS soldiers who were trying to kill us, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
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Attacking the SS ‘soldiers’ in order to save Jews ,even without hitlers permission , is that against gezeirat galut ?Haba lehargeha – hashkem lehargo.
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Sabotaging trains destined for Aushwitz is against gezeirat hagalut ?AviraDeArah,
It’s sad you don’t know Navi. It’s the poor state of Yeshiva Education. Izevel was a murder, and cruel woman. I find it fascinating that you think her meat was mehandrin and that’s why he at it? To think worshipping the Baal is a small aviera, because they were keeping every other “mitzva meticulously” is laughable. You obviously do not understand what it means to worship the Baal.
And again, you seem to not understand Navi, but it’s understandable with today’s yeshiva education. Your shavous is only bayis rishon. Nothing was said about Bayis Shani. If you want to apply that to today’s Galus, then we can also say that the 70 years of Galus also meant both Galus.
And if the kings in the times of the Bais Hamikdash also also chazir, worshipped the Baal, murdered people, isn’t Nitanyau better?
Nitanyau gives money to yeshivas while Achav and ilk murdered them.Avira, what makes you think that anyone is choosing Bibi over a King established by a Navi? Right now, we don’t have a Navi, and we don’t have a King. We do have a State of Israel, and it has a leader. If a Navi came today and established a King, do you think I’d choose Bibi over him? Absolutely not! I just look at what exists now. In no way does that diminish my longing for Mashiach’s arrival.
Da, i was responding to the other poster, anonymous, who says he prefers and compares the leader of a secular country to malchus.
Anon – if you weren’t familiar with the 70 years nevuah, i think that says a lot about your own knowledge of tanach. And yes, elisha ate the meat, which was brought by birds to where he was hiding. Why in heavens would you think a navi would eat treif?
I never said avodah zara was small. What i said was that there are clear indications that they were frum otherwise and knowledgeable in Torah. edit
Regarding Ezra being a navi: There are opinions that Ezra and Malachi were the same person, and Malachi was definitely a navi.
Yankel, on an individual basis, there’s nothing wrong with fighting, but as you can see clearly from the megillah, organizing an army for defense was NOT the method the Jews took nor would it have worked. Lobbying the US to bomb the tracks to Auschwitz was perfectly within the parameters of hishtadlus, and was done by gedolim who were anti zionist too.
The Hungarian anthem mentions G-d in its beginning, so why does not the Israeli anthem mention Him?
The Satmar Rav ztz’l says that if someone does not believe ch’v in Hashem and kisses a sefer Torah, makes it an a”z. Similarly, one makes. Israel an a’z.
>>but as you can see clearly from the megillah, organizing an army for defense was NOT the method the Jews took nor would it have worked.
You see the exact oppisite from the Megilah! They did organize an army! As the posuk says
נִקְהֲל֨וּ הַיְּהוּדִ֜ים בְּעָרֵיהֶ֗ם בְּכׇל־מְדִינוֹת֙ הַמֶּ֣לֶךְ אֲחַשְׁוֵר֔וֹשׁ לִשְׁלֹ֣חַ יָ֔ד
בִּמְבַקְשֵׁ֖י רָֽעָתָ֑ם It was not the first line of defense but they certainly did do so when they were able to. As Chazal say the parsha of Yaakov and Esav in V’Yislach is meant to be a lesson for doros that we use three methods tefilah, doron and milchoma when dealing with their threats.AviraDeArah
You spew statements, and then backtrack. First it was “Ezra had a nevuah” Then you had to clarify he heard of the nevua. Now it’s “Elisha ate meat from the table of Izevel, who was steeped in idolatry.” but it is now the birds brought him meat from an Avday Avoda Zara and a Zona.In addition, no one knew when the 70 years started or ended, Even Daniel made a mistake. There was NO Nevuah when it ended. Only when the GOYISH Kingdom allowed the jews to go up and rebuild did the jews realize the time was up. Kind of like the UN and Israel. edited It is Kedusha, regardless who runs the government.. It had kedusha under the worst kings of Jews, and it still has kedusha now.
” there are clear indications that they were frum otherwise and knowledgeable in Torah.” I do not understand your definition of frum? it is the satmar version? Belz? How do you define frum? The torah that I learned was someone who is worships idols, kills people, and is a zona, is not frum.
My apologies; i mixed up elisha with eliyahu. The story is in Melachim 1 17:6, which says that birds brought eliyahu bread and meat while he was hiding from Achav and Izevel. The meat was from her table, chazal say.
It’s not me changing the story. First – there was a nevuah that Ezra was acting on. I never intended for it to be read that he himself prophesized.
Second, the navi(i mixed up the name…sue me) ate from izevel’s mest, which proves that she and her cohorts all kept kosher.
Smerel – that was AFTER the gezerah min hashomayim was batul and they were given permission to fight. If such a thing had happened during the Holocaust – great, but it didn’t.
AviraDeArah- Ahh, so now we are allowed to eat from a restaurant owned by a murderer without any mashgiach because hashem was able to send ravens to feed Eliyahu. Is that the message? Then you should have no problem eating by Zionists 🙂
As Rabbi Ribner pointed out recently in one of his podcasts, the Briskers are very big into tziyoinistim yemach shemam vezichrom. HOWEVER, they don’t hold of the 3 Oaths as a thing. As well, Chazal say (Sanhedrin 64a, Yoma 69b) that the taava for avoda zara was battul. So if you take the Satmar Rebbe literally that Zionism is avoda zara, you are forced to say he’s arguing against befeirushe gemaras that there is no taava for avoda zara anymore. You are forced to say that he meant it as a melitza bealma so as not to have him being soseir the gamaras.
Not a Zionist, not a Satmar, just trying to add some honesty in this debate.
The overpowering, extremely intense yatzer hora for idol worship was destroyed by the anshei knesses hagedolah.
The yatzer hora for apikorsus, however, is very strong, and we are told by many tzadikim that it will be an almost insurmountable challenge באחרית הימים.
It is true that the brisker rov and his talmidim did not stress rhe shvuos; they focused more on how twisted nationalism was, the עקירת הדעת that it champions, its “new” jew who is not a galus yid, its high casualties in terms of deaths…
But rav chaim soloveitchik said repeatedly that zionism is indeed avodah zara. Rav elchonon wrote that many times too.
You have a kasha on a gemara – it means that we don’t have a tayvoh to worship sticks and stones anymore, but ee definitely have a tayvoh for zionism, because it’s not worship, but rather apikorsus – we use these terms kind of interchangeabley, but chazal did not. When rav chaim and rav elchonon wrote that zionism is AZ, they mean it is foreign ideas, what we generally call apikorsus, an import from the goyim.
Avirah…, the only reason the meat from Achav’s and Izevel’s table was kosher was because Ovadiyah ha’Novi was running the household operations.
And only 2 of the kings of Malchus Yisroel were anointed by Neviim. The rest seized power through coups or were offspring of such kings. They were less legitimate than Netanyahu. You need to learn the sources.
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