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Yankel: While the British controlled Eretz Yisroel they NEVER authorized the establishment of a Jewish state. And the reason the British quit Eretz Yisroel is because the Zionist terrorized them with maiming and killing British soldiers (as well as Arabs.) The Zionists were fighting the controlling authority of Eretz Yisroel, in violation of the Shavuous, in order to establish their state.
Correct, it does not apply today. It’s only for Bayis Rishon. That is what the Gemora mentioned. It did not mention anything about Bayis Sheni.
HaLeivi:
The Steipler in Karyana diIgrasa was discussing voting in elections, as mentioned above, not whether or not the State should exist. He and everyone else agreed that it should not. He wrote that since the voting in elections would not impact on the State’s existence therefore he held that Israelis could vote in their elections.anonymous re: bayis rishon:
That’s why the Satmar Rav wrote an entire volume on the topic. He must have missed that. So must have the Rambam when he mentioned them in Iggeres Teiman. Wow. What were they even thinking? They should have asked you.SQUARE_ROOT and the rest of the Zionist idolaters:
Give it up. The oaths are brought liHalacha as psak throughout the ages, including by the Rambam himself. The Zionists violated all the oaths, both rebelling against the nations (in massive ways), going up like a wall (tens of millions of dollars the Zionists schnorred from Jews to buy weapons in the 1940s) and, as a “bonus”, dechikas haKeitz, founding a State in E”Y which is Mashiach’s job.None of this is complicated – unless you’re trying to be a Zionist idolater and also keep the Torah.
@HaKatan- yes, the Satmar Rav and others may have missed it. They are human after all.
You need to stop repeating words and read what the gemorra wrote. it’s says Shelo Yaalu..go up!! Go UP from where?!?! The gemorra ONLY uses that term what it takes about people going up from Bavel. And even if you wanted to disagree, the term is yaala, not Yavo.
Sorry, if jews were IN the land already, they are allowed to fight.Anon1m0us, the Amoraim lived after Churban Bais Sheni. The Amoraim in Kesubos 111 applied the oaths to their generation.
UJM, in case you were serious, here is my point in other words. As per the Maharal, the oaths are means of keeping the Galus in place. The Galus is not something we were told to go into. We were taken. And, these Shvuos were set in place to keep the Galus. We were warned that if we try to force things it won’t work and it will turn out bad.
However, in the case of the state of Israel, when if the original groups agitated for and hoped for mass migration, it didn’t happen that way. The Jews of Europe didn’t just get up and go. And the fact that the state succeeded in being established, for quite a few decades now, is proof that this is not a violation of Olah Bechomah or Meridah Ba’umos. Because again, those Gezeiros meant that it can’t work.
Moreover, even if someone violated the oath and got punished, that’s the system at play, but it doesn’t make him the worst Kofer. Doesn’t the Gemara in Shabbos call Tzlafchad a Tzadik while considering him as one of the Mapilim?
HaKatan, the words I quoted don’t fit your Pshat. And it’s obvious that he disagreed with the Satmar Rav TZL about something. That much you can agree? So, let’s take it one step further. You like the Satmar Rav shita, fine. But don’t force that on everyone, because it’s absolutely not mainstream. Not by Litvish Rabbonim and Chasidish.
The UN including the World powers(Edom) let Jews establish a state in Israel. Can the brisk propaganda.
@Haliva,
Last I checked, amoraim discusses things also outside their time period. In this case, they were discussing a verse in Yermiyahu that discusses coming UP from Bavel. Hence the conversation about the oaths.
The Amorim were NOT discussing the second gals. Its clearly outlined in the Gemara.
You are LOSING YOUR HESKAT NE”EMANUT!
Steipler wrote that since the the State’s existence is not an issur, therefore he held that Israelis Have to vote in their elections.
Steipler Also writes there that it is forbidden to lie , even letsoreh kana’ut ….
.
they AUTHORISED ???
They publicly stated their intention . On the basis of which they received their mandate.I will repeat.
Lord Robert Cecil , The Deputy Foreign Secretary representing the British Government on 2 December 1917 stated that the British Government fully intended that “Judea [was] for the Jews. Our wish is that Arabian countries shall be for the Arabs, Armenia for the Armenians and Judaea for the Jews”.
The San Remo Resolution adopted on 25 April 1920 incorporated the Balfour Declaration of 1917. It and Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations were the basic documents upon which the British Mandate for Palestine was constructed.
All AFTER they were in possession of the Land.
It is true that the British themselves backtracked afterwards. And that subsequently some Zionists fought against them.
But the League of Nations ,under whose mandate the British governed ,never backtracked.
Again, the oaths are settled halacha, as per all the poskim through the ages that brought them down and applied them, including the Rambam, and nobody can possibly claim otherwise.
Yankel Berel:
You’re wrong/misquoting, and this has been discussed earlier. He permitted only voting in Israeli elections since that doesn’t impact the State’s existence.HaLeivi:
It is not “my” pshat. It is the Torah’s pshat. No Torah authority disagrees.“And the fact that the state succeeded in being established, for quite a few decades now, is proof that this is not a violation of Olah Bechomah or Meridah Ba’umos. Because again, those Gezeiros meant that it can’t work.”
Your invented pshat in gezeira, however, is yours and nobody holds that way, unless you can find someone like a Satmar Rav or Brisker Rav or the like who says that. Speaking of them, by the way, the Brisker Rav agrees to the Satmar Rav and actually goes further and stated that the Zionist State violates the entire Torah.
If you think about it, though, you will realize that your pshat makes no sense. Hashem warned that if they violate the oaths, then he will make their flesh free as one would hunt game (“Ani mattir es…”). That inherently means that you could actually violate the gezeira if you want to do that – but that it’s not going to be pretty if you do. So the fact the State exists after all these years does not at all indicate anything regarding it being a violation of the oaths (which it most certainly is in multiple ways).
On a related note, and this will offend the hard-core Zionist idolaters but I believe it is Torah: the fact that the Zionist paradise requires sealed rooms in all homes, and looking over one’s shoulder to ensure there are no savages waiting to attack R”L L”A, seems pretty obviously a continued “Ani mattir es bisar…”.
Again, your pshat makes no sense and is totally baseless.
Regarding your question about the reason it is so egregious to violate the oaths, that would be because it is kefirah in bias haMashiach and, regarding specifically the Zionist State as per the Brisker Rav, kefirah in the entire Torah. Please don’t bring in Tzlafchad here who had noble intentions to show how serious is Shabbos and not CH”V to rebel in any way, unlike liHavdil the Zionist paradise which is a total and utter rebellion including replacing Judaism with godless Zionism.
anon1m0us, I am puzzled. Why don’t you just take a peek at that Gemara?
https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=15&daf=111&format=textyankel berel:
This is silly. Stop hocking irrelevant nonsense about the League of Nations, which was long gone in 1948. The Zionists violated multiple oaths including rebelling against the nations, regardless of the LON. That’s the point. They also violated aliyah baChoma and dechikas haKeitz, so it also was and remains forbidden due to those two oaths in addition.
Stop hocking nonsensical lies about the Steipler.
Read it.
Black on white.
As clear as can be.
EXISTENCE of the State is not against the Torah..
The UN, which took over from the League of Nations ,ALSO voted for Partition and Establishment of a Jewish State.
So it was BOTH the League AND the UN who supported the Establishment of a Jewish State.
These are facts , as easily verifiable as a page in the Steiplers Karyane DeIgreta.I can see that the Kana’ut is really burning inside you as you are misrepresenting such easily verifiable facts.
EVEN LETSOREH KANA’UT IS IT PROHIBITED TO LIE! [Steipler in same letter where he permits EXISTENCE of the State] .
.Another example of your obvious misrepresentation [sourced in kana’ut]
Hashmatat haMehaber.
Hashmatat Yad Hachazaka .
Rambam wrote clearly – learn this sefer and you will know in short ,all you need to know – without learning any other sefer.
Hashmata of any halacha from Yad is MAJOR.Which is the question posed by one of klal yisraels greatest ge’onim [as great as Satmar Rav ,if not greater]
The Avne Nezer, the rebbe of Sochatshov.
Wherefrom he decides that according Mehaber and Rambam , the 3 shevu’ot are NOT BINDING lehalacha.
Look it up in the end of Tshuvot YD.
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How can hakatan so brazenly state that the Shevu’ot are binding according to everyone ?[the oaths are settled halacha, as per all the poskim through the ages that brought them down and applied them, including the Rambam, and nobody can possibly claim otherwise – hakatan]
Again, kana’ut seems to be doche everything …
Even clearly established and easily verifiable facts ….I will repeat here the language of the Mandate , under which the British themselves stated, they were governing.
Article 2 of the Mandate made the mandatory power [Britain] responsible for placing the country under such “political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish National Home…and the development of self-governing institutions.”
Establishment of the Jewish NATIONAL HOME and SELF GOVERNING INSTITUTIONS .
Thats the language used by them.
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Some Zionists fought the British .
Not all of them.
Most did not.
.
Please – lets stick to the facts.Hi did you receive my posts ?
“They also violated aliyah baChoma and dechikas haKeitz”
Dechikas Haketz is total conjecture. You’re going to accuse people who didn’t believe in the קץ as being דוחה את הקץ? How blind can you be?
And, Aliyah Bechoma is very questionable if it was violated. If you want to know what Chazal meant by Aliyah Bechoma, there’s no need to guess. The term is used in Yoma 9 and it means everybody going at once. This didn’t happen.
Now, yes. The Satmar Rav and the Brisker Rav are the two famous Kanaim. It is the mainstream majority that I’m referring to. Now am I sure that the Brisker Rav’s problem was the 3 oaths or in general being against an organization trying to replace the Torah.
Weird how your forced Pshat is “the Torah” and my quote of the Maharal is “invented”. I guess there you have it. You aren’t an honest broker. And I hereby end my discussion with you. Bye.
SATMAR AND NK ARE VIOLATING THE THREE OATHS AND UPROOTING MITZVOT FROM THE TORAH
In 1922, a joint resolution of both houses of the US Congress endorsed the British Mandate for Palestine.
US President Warren G. Harding also signed the joint resolution of approval to establish a Jewish National Home in Palestine.
In 1947, by a majority vote, the UN General Assembly voted to allow a Jewish state in the Land of Israel.
A few years ago, the President of the United States placed the US Embassy in Jerusalem.
Even if the 3 Oaths were halacha, the Jews never violated those oaths.
Nowhere in Rambam’s Mishneh Torah does he rule that the 3 Oaths are halacha. On the contrary, in Sefer Hamitzvot positive mitzvah no. 187 the Rambam rules that the mitzvah to eradicate the Seven Nations is binding for all time. Meaning that Jews are obligated for all time to conquer and settle E.Y.!
It is 100% clear that Satmar and NK Reformers are exploiting an invented halacha of 3 Oaths to uproot mitzvot from the Torah!
Haleivi, it was the overwhelming majority of the Torah world, not just the brisker rov and the satmar rov. You’re just one step above the MO delusion that “only satmar” opposed the state. The main differences were in how to relate to the state ex post facto. The brisker rov was more concerned with the akiras hadas and pikuach nefesh problems with zionism than the shvuos, however.
1. See Yoma 9b that there was tremendous anger at the Babylonian Jews for not making aliya en masse.
2. See Ramban, Sefer haMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forgot” that there is a Torah obligation in our time to conquer and settle Eretz Yisrael.
3. Rav Soloveichik said (Kol Dodi Dofek) that Hashem has knocked. Just look at the Land giving forth its fruits (Sanhedrin 98a with Rashi d”h meguleh mizeh).
3. BTW, the Jewish National home was supposed to include both banks of the Jordan River as well as Gaza. Jordan is the real Palestinian state as it was part of the Ottoman province of that name.
Square, miracles don’t prove things. Torah is laav bashonayim – we do not change our Torah because of them. Chumash itself warns us of false neviim performing miracles – it wouldn’t matter if it were written in the sky for us to break a halacha, we wouldn’t do it. Because halacha does not change based on anything, even a bas kol.
Also, that the land became fruitful is a metzius; when Jews are on it, for better or worse, it blossoms. It’s how eretz yisroel works. No different than two people trying to open a fingerprint scanner, with one having the coded fingerprint and the other not.
Maybe the fruits are a sign that the geulah is imminent – the gedolim have been saying that moshiach is coming soon since the chofetz chaim, and rav elchonon, his talmid, wrote an entire sefer about how we’re the last step,the ikvesa demeshicha – and he called zionism avodah zara in clear language.
So just as the fire coming down from shomayim on the side of baal should not make us change religions, i will not accept nationalism as it is avoda zara. Rav Nachman of Breslov and many other chassidishe rebbes write how before moshiach comes, the nisayon of emunah will be almost unbearable, there will be signs that the sitra achra is correct…only those with pure emunah will emerge unscathed. They give the fire of har Carmel as an example of what will happen – we will be tested. Will we follow Hashem or the baal? Will we go by our senses or our emunah and our purified Torah thinking?
It’s also interesting how communities which minimize nissim and believe in “rationalism,” castigating Torah jews as backwards, and denying things like golems or stories of mofsim performed by tzadikim, are happy to accept nissim performed for a mixed gender army of mechalelei shabbos.
Because it suits their purpose.
The Torah world looks to nissim to strengthen our existing mesorah.
The Nationalist world looks for nissim to PROVE their new avodah zara.
It’s a huge nisayon. Fight it.
According to the Satmar Rav ztz’l miraclles cam originate from both sides. The eigel did not come from kedusha.
3 Shevuot lehalacha is not “invented”.
Nor is it “accepted by as clear halacha by all of klal yisrael” .This is not the first unresolved halachik issue , nor is it the last.
It is childish for either side to insist that there is no other side.@reb eliezer
Rav Kreisworth is reputed to have asked -about satmar rav s shitah that nissim could come from stra achra- how can the gemara state that one who passes a place where a neis was done [for his forefathers or klal yisrael] baruch ata shem elokenu she’asa li neis bamakom hazeh ?
Maybe it came from the s’a ?
How can you know ?Hi did you get my posts ?
We get your posts, we also read them and approve them. Sometimes it takes more than the 20 minutes you wait before you ask. Sometimes it’s even hours. But yes, we get your posts.>>>According to the Satmar Rav ztz’l miraclles cam originate from both sides. The eigel did not come from kedusha.
It’s one thing to say that the Soton has small time power in this world. Saying that he can control world events and major events affecting klal yisroel in a miraculous fashion sounds like Polytheism R’L. Which is universally considered to be kefira. See my other comment about that the Brisker Rav (whose antizionist credentials were impeccable) said it is ossur to say such a thing
>>>It’s also interesting how communities which minimize nissim and believe in “rationalism,” castigating Torah jews as backwards, and denying things like golems or stories of mofsim performed by tzadikim, are happy to accept nissim performed for a mixed gender army of mechalelei shabbos.
Of course the converse is also true….
In Satmar they celebrate 21 Kislev every year with total disregard for who were the one who arranged that “Nes Hatzlalah” Because they correctly perceive as being done on behalf of the Satmar Rebbe and not the people who they passionately hate who arranged it . Ditto when anyone else see nissim in Israeli wars. They see it as on behalf of Klal Yisroel.
There however certain militant secularists and atheists who refuse to see Yad Hashem. They have ood company in some of the anti-Zionist zealots.
Saying that “whoever thinks our victory in the six day way was because God intervened on our behalf is mistaken, it was all our superior strength and planning” is no more acceptable haskafa when coming from Yitzchok Rabin than when coming from Yakov Shapiro in The Empty Wagon. The difference is that Yitzchok Rabin was a tinok shnasba speaking to other tinokos snisbu. The Empty Wagon is meant to influence the frum world…
In the antizionist propaganda literature that I saw dropped in shul a few weeks ago there was the claim that the Israel stays around in these situations because of the Sitra Achra . Rav Shlomo Lorincz wrote in B’Mictasom that he asked the Brisker Rav what he thinks of that approach. The Brisker Rav said that it is ASSUR to say such things because it attributes to much independent power to the Soton over Ratzon Hashem.
AviraDeArah, your final statement was exactly my point. It’s true that the Torah world was against any replacement ideology, whether it’s Communism, nationalism, or Zionism. And they surely did not go for the whole creating a state thing. Nor did they think like Hertzl and all the Zionists, that a Jewish state would solve antisemitism.
And once the state was proclaimed and formed, and that was the new reality, they worked with it, since it’s not the state that is the issue. And even if the שלש שבועות was an ingredient of the opposition, it wasn’t נוגע anymore once it was all said and done, and the new reality set in.
But Satmar is unique in making it all about the שלש שבועות and therefore playing up their importance, as well as not letting go of the issue even though Zionism is long over.
Strangely, Satmar papers are more obsessed with Israeli politics than anyone else. But instead of referring to the Prime Minister they’ll write ראש המינים והאפיקורסים.
Avi K, you are proving a rule of Golus from the end of Golus? I guess you can likewise prove that you are entitled to walk off with my possessions since I may walk off with it
Smerel, that account by r. Lorencz is a mistake. The satmar rov didn’t say that nissim are from the soton, he said that there weren’t nissim in the 6 day war, and he was correct. The US military said it would take Israel around a week to do what it had to do.
And yes, attributing anything to the independent acts of the soton, or anything other than Hashem, is kefirah.
But the brisker rov wasn’t arguing on tje established concept of maysoh soton whch is mentioned in chazal(one place that comes to mind is the image of Moshe dying on har sinai before the egel). What it means is that the soton is doing his job that he was tasked to do by Hashem and is only able to do so because Hashem wants that test to be made.
That’s why it says in chumash that when a navi sheker does a miracle, it’s Hashem testing you – He is testing us through the soton to see if we will go with the sitra achra.
Let’s remember 3rd grade parsha class.
Devarim 13:
כי יקום בקרבך נביא או חלם חלום ונתן אליך אות או מופת
When a navi or dreamer of a dream rises among you, and gives you a sign or miracle
ובא האות והמופת אשר דבר אליך לאמר נלכה אחרי אלהים אחרים אשר לא ידעתם ונעבדם
And the sign or the miracle that he spoke to you comes, saying ‘let’s go after other gods that you haven’t known, and serve them.
לא תשמע אל דברי הנביא ההוא או אל חולם החלום ההוא כי מנסה ה” אלקיכם אתכם לדעת הישכם אהבים את ה” אלקיכם בכל לבבכם ובכל נפשכם
Do not listen to the words of that navi or that dreamer of dreams, for **Hashem your God is testing you**, to know among you are lovers of Hashem your God, with all of your heart and all of your soul.
Hashem is telling us clear, rochel btcha haketana – miracles will happen to test us and see if we will follow avoda zara. Tzadikei olam have said that nationalism is avodah zara, and it is indeed a false god that our fathers knew not, because it is a new, European ideology. Zionism is spelled out for you clearly in this parshah.
Like Smerel above, I find this Sitra Achra attribution very troubling and strange. In truth, this wasn’t the only theory put forth by the Satmar Rebbe ZTL, but for some reason this is the one that kicked off.
We do find instances of the Satan creating a flash flood before the Akeida, a form of a man on a bed before the Eigel, and to mess up Iyov. All of these were tests that Hakadosh Baruch Hu was testing people, and being that it is the Satan who is the one tasked with tempting people, he was given the permission, or task, of performing the test. It is another way of saying that Hashem was testing them.
We don’t find such attribution of a long lasting favor and hospital event to the Satan, but this is the idea that is being stretched.
It is a brand new idea into Judaism not to thank Hashem for salvation but to attribute it to strength or other powers. We always took for granted that the miracle of Purim was self evident, and not just because we were told it’s a miracle done by the right Power.
The way to know if a miracle is from kedushah is what came before it and what does it represent.
On Purim, we dsvened and did teshuva. And we accepted the torah anew. The soton has no interest in that, it’s not a challenge for us to do something bad.
When there are alleged nissim for the state, it’s a nisayon if we will say that Hashem is on the side of those who hate Him and made an army designed to rebel against Him, in a state made to reconstruct a Jew into a secular culturally entity.
Big difference.
If a miracle happens which is against the Torah, it comes from the other side. Yoshke created miracles.
>>>Smerel, that account by r. Lorencz is a mistake. The satmar rov didn’t say that nissim are from the soton, he said that there weren’t nissim in the 6 day war, and he was correct. The US military said it would take Israel around a week to do what it had to do.
I see. You know better than R Lorencz himself what the Brisker Rav told him. Where does the six day war and the Satmar Rebbe even come into this? The Brisker Rav was niftar seven years earlier. I don’t believe the US military said it would take Israel around a week to do what it had to do. There is not one newspaper around from that time that reports such a thing. Yaakov Shapiro claims I’ll find find it on CIA.gov. I tried that and could only find a an obvious fake website pretending to be the CIA making that claim
>>>Let’s remember 3rd grade parsha class. Devarim 13: כי יקום בקרבך נביא או חלם חלום ונתן אליך אות או מופת
I also remember learning about Pharoah and his refusal to see to the Yad Hashem. The approach of Pharoah is what I’m seeing being pushed here by you. I won’t elaborate so as not to start with the heretical arguments
“Yoshke created miracles.”
Don’t know about you, but I don’t believe the Christian testament. See Sanhedrin 90.
What we absolutely do not find in Yiddish Hashkafa is not to thank Hashem for a salvation, natural or otherwise, לעושי רצונו or לעוברי רצונו. The aforementioned incidents of something happening because of—or even my means of—the Satan, were not miracles and were not salvation.
This is a whole brand new ideology to start judging whether or not a salvation came from Hashem. I guess we got a new Pshat in the הווא אמינא of the עגל worshipers and Korach. חומרא דאתא לידי קולא.
So it bothers you that Hashem is מאריך אף on Jews who are in trouble? He had patience for Achav; He can have patience for our confused generation as well. Take a look at the outcome. People see miracles and they turn to Hashem. The patience paid off.
The Medrash says that Hashem will blame our sins on the ones who brought us into exile. The Galus took its toll. Have patience and allow heavenly salvation and slowly our brothers and sisters, endowed will holy Neshamos, will turn to Hashem. As we find in Yechezkel that in the days to come, the rebuke will be in the form of benefits.
Avira, the Ponovezher Rav disagreed with you. After the Six Day War, he wrote an article where he said the war was an open miracle.
“Hashem is telling us clear, rochel btcha haketana – miracles will happen”
No. It is not a promise that such a miracle will happen. Because Rebbe Akiva tells us in Sanhedrin 90 that it won’t.
And again. No one here is bringing proof to the truth if a concept from a miracle. This is not אילן יוכיח. There are two points now at stake.
My point was that the שלש שבועות as explained by the Maharal are all about the fact that the Galus will stay in place and you shouldn’t even try to get out of it. And if you do try it will end badly and you’ll stay in Galus, obviously. And so, if calling your neighborhood a state is a direct violation to one of these oaths, it would have ended the way it describes. And fortunately, it didn’t. Instead, the state lived on and prospered.
This is my argument as to why I believe that in the end, none of the oaths were technically violated.
The second point here is that if a salvation happened, it was from Hashem, and we have to be thankful and not be כפויי טובה. If it was a remarkable salvation, all the more so. And situations a lot less remarkable than the wars in EY were called Nissim.
A side point: I’m sure you know that in Israel they prepared large cemeteries because, apparently, they weren’t as sure as the apathetic State Department. Even today, the US government is very optimistic on Israel’s back about how nothing that terrible would happen if they remove road blocks, let in many more workers unchecked, turn around and leave before concluding war goals, reward crimes with statehood, turn the other cheek, and overturn the government that doesn’t fully align with current administration in America. Do you trust their judgement? Or is it only brought up selectively to grab the Hodaa away from Hakadosh Baruch Hu?
Smerel, my mistake, lorencz was talking about the war of independence. The US gave Israel a 50/50 shot at winning at the time. It wasn’t as clear cut as the 6 day war.
Re, ponevezher rov – if he said it was a neis, then why would the state department say that Israel would do it in 6 days? The satmar rov said “if the 6 day war was a neis, Johnson was a navi”
We’re talking about a question of metzius, not necessarily daas Torah; the ponevezher rov was lightyears ahead of my pay grade, but i believe the evidence to be incontrovertible….just like how there were mistaken views on how electricity worked in the later achronim.
The brisker rov said there were yeshuos and that they were done for the frumer yidden, and that we need to thank Hashem for it. That doesn’t mean that when zionists point to miracles, real or otherwise, that it shows that “god is on our side,” because He isn’t on the side of rotzchim poshim apikorsim(like the song goes)
The existence of Israel isn’t a constant miracle or a lasting one. It’s bederech hateva that a country which drafts its citizens and has a yiddishe kop economy will prosper in a place where illiterate village dwellers failed, aside from what chazal say about eretz yisroel working when yidden farm there.
Rebbe Akiva is a complicated sugya – here’s the context, which you completely omitted.
There’s a machlokes between rebbe yossi haglili and rebbe Akiva if the pasuk i mentioned is to be understood the way i said it(that a navi sheker will do miracles) or if we’re talking about a navi who did miracles when he was a real navi and then became a false navi, and told people to rely on his miracles as proof of his validity. This will be a nisayon.
Rebbe Akiva holds that while it will obviously be a nisayon(actually, a bigger one, because he was muchzak as a navi emes) chas veshalom that a rasha should do miracles.
Rebbe yochanan, howeve, paskens like rebbe yossi, and halacha follows amoraim, not tannaim.
So the maskana of that gemara is that a false navi will do nissim.
However even according to rebbe Akiva, there is a big difference. He doesn’t deny that the soton has and will do miracles to test us – his issue is that a miracle can’t be done for those who violate His will, in his exact lashon. The soton not only doesn’t violate His will – he’s doing Hashems will by testing us! There were no specific neviim during Israel’s wars.
Now if you’re going to say that this is a “proof” that Hashem approved of their actions….oh boy. You need to learn some history. Hitler was miraculously saved numerous times from assassins. Does that mean he was doing ratzon Hashem?
And don’t you think the secular army and soldiers were ovrei ratzon Hashem in literally every other way? What difference would the shvuos make? They probably never even heard of them, but you decided that “aha! Hashem wouldn’t have done a neis if they were sinners in the shvuos!”….but mechalelei shabbos He would do a neis for? You need to say like the brisker rov, that the yeshuos are done because there are good yidden living there, but they are in no way a stamp pf approval from Hashem
So cautious chazal were with claiming “God is on our side” that EVEN Chanukah, miraculous win that it was, was only decided the next year to be made into a yom tov, because, as the maharal writes, sometimes the underdog wins an upset victory…. it’s not always indicative of anything miraculous. Only when they felt the kedushah come back the next year, together with the neis of the pach shemen, did they fully accept that a neis had happened and made a yom tov.
Alao, rebbe akiva didn’t say it was impossible, rather “chas veshalom”
It would indeed be a calamity.
The type of calamity which gedolei yisroel for generations said will happen before bias hamoshiach. Rav nachman knew this gemara very well, And the, the rizhuner, and many others said nissim will happen which will test our emunah. We will have to hold on by our fingertips, they said.
So to recap:
Rebbe Akiva is a machlokes tannaim, and rebbe yochanan paskens not like him
Rebbe Akiva was talking about a Navi, not the soton.
Rebbe Akiva never said it wouldn’t happen before bias hamoshiach, or that it was impossible, rather he said chas veshalom.
No one’s taking away the importance of thanking Hashem – you need to thank Hashem for non nisim too, or for yeshuos you get even if they’re tests. That’s part of the test.
The issue is using that to legitimize actual avodah zara, which is what the pasuk is warning us about.
The sound of agenda driven interpretation:
“Also, rebbe akiva didn’t say it was impossible, rather “chas veshalom”It would indeed be a calamity.”
Our daily support from Hashem is as much a miracle as the splitting of the sea..
There is a common theme among the big three deviations in the Jewish world (zionism, neo chabad and modern orthodoxy/haskala/”rationalism”)
When you start analyzing the gemaras and other sources that they throw around, they never have equally thought out and thorough answers. It’s always ad hominem or superficial readings.
I went through the gemara the way we are taught to do in yeshivos. You quoted one shitah which the halacha doesn’t follow out of context. And your answer is to pick on the weakest part of my argument – that’s agenda driven
Avira, your claim with the Ponovezher Rav is just plain ridiculous now. You want to claim that he made mistakes, but can’t consider that others might have? So the US State Department said it would take a week – so what? Purim is just over a week away, did you learn nothing from it? Miracles occur that may seem natural.
To quote a song put out many years ago, “But those who don’t see, are those who refuse to see.”Da, if a bas kol came out and said nationalism is true, and that every soldier is holy, and that the state is a great thing and a kiddush Hashem, i wouldn’t believe it – there’s nothing to “see.” we have a Torah, and i will never be modeh to avodah zara, nor should any believing Jew.
Da, we should thank Hashem that the yidden who were put in danger by the zionists 75 years ago remained safe during the 67 war, and are still safe with the added, new dangers.
On Purim, we were threatened with annihilation. Did we make a SJDF(Shushan Jewish Defense Force)?
No. We davened, and did teshuva, and rhe gezerah was batul. That’s the lesson of Purim, to recognize the source of our tzaros.
My point is that the IDF isn’t “gods army” and he doesn’t approve of their sinfulness. How do i know that? Because He told us so. If Hashem sees an ervas davar, He turns away from us – it’s a beferushe pasuk.
And yes, if an expert on military issues predicts a country will win in a week and they do, that means it’s not really a neis. Of course Hashem wanted them to win and made them win, and it’s best that they did because if they didn’t, there would have been another Holocaust cv”s. What’s your point?
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