Refinancing / Mortgaging To Make A Chasunah?!?

By the way, if weddings in Israel are so inexpensive, why do peoples spend over three thousand dollars in airfare and expenses to come here and collect door to door?

to rwndk1: It’s not the olom’s responsibility to buy an apartment for the children, nor is it charity.

One bochur, a tremendous masmid who used to learn day and night, seemed troubled by something and his learning was not as it usually was. Reb Yeruchom Levovitz (Mashgiach at Mir, prior to the war) approached him and tried to engage him in conversation to find out what was bothering him.

“The bochur told him that his sister had become engaged and that his father had promised a sum as a dowry but something had happened and the money had been lost and as a result, the chosson wanted to cancel the shidduch. Nu, how can one immerse oneself in learning with such a sad story gnawing away at one’s peace of mind?

“Reb Yeruchom asked him, `How much was the dowry?’

“The bochur replied, Five hundred dollars.' In those days, such a sum was equal in worth to fifty thousand dollars today. Three days later, Reb Yeruchom presented him with five hundred dollars. Then he added approximately the following,Hachnosas kallah is certainly a very great mitzvoh. In general, to see that a Jew doesn’t go hungry is definitely a great mitzvoh. What concerned me though, was that you should sit and learn!’

I would have loved to have given my children an apartment or home when they married. Joseph, just as a true ben torah doesn’t put his in-laws in a position to give him expensive items and weddings, so too, a true ben torah should not expect/demand gifts of apartments or support in kollel.

If he is truly worthy, the true ben torah should do as most of the great rabbonim have always done, take a rabbinical/teaching position to support the family and continue learning.

Joseph asks who the kasha is on. Here’s a peshara: who knows what Rav Yerucham would have advised lechatchila for the couple, but since it was done, to spare the busha and for the sake of the couple who wanted to marry he saved the day?

Actual figures from our wedding last weekend. We are both around 50, and put it on ourselves:

Mesader Kiddushin (an old friend who is a rabbi and was going to be a wedding guest, anyway) – $650

Catering (good food, dairy buffet, hors d’oeuvres and great desserts for 55 – NO WEDDING CAKE (that actually cost extra, since we needed more desserts) – about $4000 with gratuities, etc. — could have done it for less.

Open bar – $150 + 40 gratuity (not big drinkers, my family)

Chuppah – borrowed – $0

Chuppah decorations – from our garden and friends’ gardens – $0

Signage – made ourselves – $10.

Ceremony in public park – permit (not strictly necessary) = $25

Reception in beautiful, new VFW hall – $375

bartender – $75.

Klezmer band – $1000 for a quartet for 2.5 hours (could have spent less, but we liked these guys) + a single clarinetist to play music before and after the ceremony.

My suit – $99 at Marshalls + $35 tailoring. I can use it as a regular business suit.

Her dress – $49 at consignment shop. She dyed it, and will use it again.

Her veil – borrowed

Her shawl (this was expensive) – $69

Champagne – $120 + we will be receiving $36 rebate.

Ketubah – I typeset it myself, had it printed at a graphics art shop — $65. We will have it adorned at a later date by a friend who is a watercolor artist – price $150 (her usual price is $300, but half is a wedding gift).

Transportation – rented a large car for 3 days to shuttle people from airport to hotel to ceremony / reception. $170 – special weekend rates.

We bought other things, such as shoes, etc., that we have now for future use. Tried to buy things we could use in the future.

Photographer – $300 to fly a professional photographer, an college friend of the bride, in for the wedding. All the rest was her (the photographer’s) wedding gift.

Flowers: 3 pots of pampas grass for decor. Cost of flowers added to our tzedekah.

Mikveh – $3 for parking at local pond.

Did I forget anything?

We could have put on a wedding for 100 for very little more – an add’l $45/person for food. The band and hall wouldn’t have cost more, and could have supported 100 people.

Some of our relatives spent a fortune coming across the country to be here — but that doesn’t count towards the total.

We drove all the travelers to and from the train and airport, so we would at least have a dedicated 90 minutes to converse with them, regardless of what happened the rest of the weekend. Made them feel welcome, too.

It was well within our budget, and I am fortunate to come from three (mother’s, father’s and stepfather’s) so that the wedding gifts paid for at least 2/3’s of our costs.

Our guests are still telling us how lovely it was.

forgot: Bouquet for bride, corsage for my mother – $75

Archival pen for ketubah signing- $5

ronrsr: a local pond is a big shailah to use as a mikvah. If the pond was man-made, it probably isn’t kosher. You might want to check it out.

Why are the recent Takanos by the Belzer Rebbe and others so narrowly drawn. They don’t seem to limit $ (or NIS) amounts, but rather limit choices.

I understand that musicians are particularly upset about takanos that limit the NUMBER of musicians at a wedding. Why not limit the dollar amount? If I wish to have a trio for two hours, rather than a single musican for six, what is the harm in that? The range in price of musicians also varies, we spoke to those who charged $80/hour up to $400/hour.

For our wedding, we chose to spend the bulk of our money on music and food, figuring that was the best investment in the joy of our guests. We spent almost nothing on gifts to each other, outside of simple 14k wedding bands, total cost about $270.

If you’re going to set up guidelines, why not peg them to family income — say, no more than 3 months income?

bests,

-rsr-

Can’t wait to see takanos that address support.

Supporting kids after marriage, x amount per month for y years.

Joseph:

Agreed 100%!

The problem is everyone (girls that is) wants a talmid chacham as a son-in-law, instead of only marrying someone (or having the type of wedding, INCLUDING DRESS, SHAITEL, ETC.) who you can “afford”, and their totty can’t say no.

gavra: Chazal advise father-in-laws and girls to seek a Talmid Chochom.

cherrybim:

Just 2 days ago (above) you wrote “I would have loved to have given my children an apartment or home when they married. Joseph, just as a true ben torah doesn’t put his in-laws in a position to give him expensive items and weddings, so too, a true ben torah should not expect/demand gifts of apartments or support in kollel.

If he is truly worthy, the true ben torah should do as most of the great rabbonim have always done, take a rabbinical/teaching position to support the family and continue learning.”

Now you write: “Dowries, as in: putting together items to set up a new home, is not a new issue”

So, apparently, you have come around full circle on this issue in just 2 days! Welcome to the club. 🙂

“Re dowries: often the kallah has a generous shower which alleviates the burden.”

Sounds like a fancy name for “Hachnosos Kallah.”

Joseph:

I know that (and have quoted it many times). It doesn’t hurt to try to find the few that are not interested in being supported 🙂

But seriously, how many of us (even now) could have supported a son-in-law like the TAZ (who insisted in the dowery that he be served meat every night, as that is what he needed to learn, and won a Din Torah when his shver (The Bach) wanted to serve him chicken (or lung) instead !!) (A rayah against CherryBim on both accounts)

tzippi: Not nogayah, as they would not have gotten in. The however many (don’t know exact number) that did get in (after knowing Nashim Nezikin Baal Peh) would rate, but almost all would go into rabbonus after a few years (as was the norm in Europe).

squeak – if it is coming from you. 🙂

cherrybim – You read above how Reb Yeruchem paid his talmid’s sister’s $50,000 cash dowry?

Gavra_at_work: If I had the Bach for a son-in-law, I’d work three jobs to provide him a house and serve him rib steaks and baby lamb chops every night. No Din Torah necessary.

cherrybim – so the Torah learned today doesn’t rate by you?

cherrybim: Yup, but someone of that caliber is not happening these days. Also if you were the Bach you might want to learn yourself 🙂

Hard to believe your story Joseph, where’d you read it, Artscroll?

And where could he get that kind of money to give away? He certainly didn’t take out of his savings account or sell some stocks. People were starving.

Unless, this one bochur who was a tremendous masmid and learned 24/7 was someone like a young Rav Shmuel Berenbaum, then it makes sense.

cherrybim – Are you saying Artscroll includes sheker in some of their seforim?

The story of Reb Yeruchem comes from the lamdan and masmid HaRav Aharon Kreiser ZT’L of the Mirrer minyan in Boro Park and Lakewood Yeshiva, and of course one of the prominent talmidim of the European yeshivas.

Artscroll sheker? I never would have thought it Joseph; is that what you’re implying?

Joseph, did you hear the story directly from HaRav Aharon Kreiser ZT’L; or is it coming as a hand-me-down? Storytellers have a license to exaggerate for effect. The dowry could have grown in translation (the currency in Poland was zlotys, not dollars) and over the years; don’t forget, Yidden were very poor in Poland?

10-20,000 years? Uh-oh…

😉

Oh, please… let’s not start this here…

The Wolf

Joseph, when Rav Dov Eliach heard the story of Reb Yeruchem from HaRav Kreiser ZT’L in the botei medrash of the Lakewood Yeshiva, 17 years ago; how much was the dowry up to? Was it $50,000 in today’s dollars or in 1992 dollars?

FYI:

$500 in 1930 after inflation is $4214 in 1992 according to the CPI, so there is no reason why Rav Yeruchum could not have had this laying around and/or sell some of his possesions to obtain the cash. 500 dollars in 1920 or 1930 would get you (therebouts of) $6750 today if we are dealing with silver dollars.