Redeeming Modern Orthodoxy

This article really didn’t say anything. Other than offering a historical defense and definition of “Modern Orthodoxy” (one I have said here many times), he’s not providing any sort of solution or idea.

Modern Orthodoxy = Chassidus

REITS was the best yeshiva in America in the 1930s and 40s. Somehow YU moved its emphasis of Torah and Madoh, as promulgated by the Rov, to an emphasis on secular education. Along with that went the dream of a “modern” Orthodoxy. The so called modern frum developed a distaste for the ultra orthodox and chasidim, who looked down at them for going so secular. and started going more left. When you teach your kids that mainstream orthodoxy is wrong, they go along with that. Becoming more secular, especially on a college campus, means going off the derech. But still, you cant generalize. The 5 towns, which was the capital of modern orthodoxy, has gone seriously to the right.

theprof (an ironic name): RIETS/YU does not emphasize secular education over Torah in the slightest.

DY: I don’t see such an issue. Populations always have natural shifts in attitudes and observance. The “Modern Orthodoxy” of the 1960s was different than that of the 1980s and is different than that of today. The “Chareidi” community of the 1960s had different attitudes on things than we see today. There is still a strong population of completely Frum people who value interacting with the outside world. As long as that exists, “Modern Orthodoxy” will have its place.

I got as far as the second paragraph, where the author uses the term “Open Orthodox/Neo-Conservative.” Open Orthodox I understand, but isn’t neo-conservative a political term? Has anyone here seen it used to describe the religious beliefs or practices of a group of Jews?

I’ve seen it written that the Open Orthodox are following in the footsteps of the Conservative movement. I assume that’s what was meant.

DY: I really don’t know that it’s true that the “MO” have a higher OTD rate. I know the claims, but I really don’t know how true it is or how meaningful it is if true.

Barry: I heard it about Boston. No group is immune, true, and there are different types of Modern Orthodox, and I’m not painting all with the same brush. I am saying that the most modern, who send to dormitory colleges, are losing a lot more.

ZD, firstly, that’s not true about Satmar. More importantly, there is a huge range of people who would fall under the chareidi label. Satmar are not the only chareidim.

Modern Orthodox ranges farther to the left, which is why there are more dropouts.

We’re talking about people who keep Shabbos, and want their kids to, but sadly many don’t. Rabbi Gordimer (and others) are correct to sound the alarm.

Let’s talk straight – MO used to mean being more involved in the outside world, etc. The fact is that Haredim are very involved in the outside world, especially in USA they hold jobs in all sorts of things.

MO today, unfortunately, means justifying not being stringent in halachic observances. While in all groups not everyone is a tzaddik, myself included, the difference is that if I am lax in a certain mitzvah I know that I am wrong.

MO today means you can go to mixed beaches, kiss the mother of the Bar Mitzvah boy even though she is a married woman, Shacharis at 9 AM on Shabbos regardless of zman Krias Shma, etc. Again, there are many Haredim who are guilty of the same infractions and more but they know they should be doing better. Any MOs out there with an internet filter? After all you have to be “normal” and bring pornography into your house at a button’s press. MO justifies this behavior – sad but I don’t think there is anyone out there who can deny it.

I was brought up MO and believed in what they stood for, went to YU, etc. What did I do? Throw in the towel and raise my kids Haredi – there is no choice for one who is serious about his Yiddishkeit and wants to lead a life of kedusha, times have changed and the era of the Rav, etc. are gone.

DY: That’s true. Many who go to secular college (who don’t live at home) are lost. Which is why so many MO won’t send to secular colleges now. At least, not to live on campus.

rwn: That’s mostly not true. Honestly, from all the research I have done on that it is a label that was forced onto the “MO” by either others or by those who chose to identify as MO when they weren’t fully Orthodox. There are still a lot of people who are completely Halacha-observant while being MO.

“MO today means … Shacharis at 9 AM on Shabbos regardless of zman Krias Shma, etc.” So Lubovitchers are MO?

mw13: Frum MO have always acknowledged dangers. No one wants their kids to live on a college campus (with a few exceptions). Everyone filters what television and movies and books and such that kids can read/watch. It has never been totally Hefker. With a few exceptions, most are realizing that kids living on college campuses is a bad idea.

I think that the Haredi world should focus on its own problems. Traditional Orthodoxy will be just fine thank you.

” Rabbi Gordimer *is* Modern Orthodox.”

Whether he calls himself modern orthodox or something else, his expressed opposition to all existing formal programs of advanced Torah education for women is not consistent with where essentially all modern orthodox communities fall on the hashkafic spectrum.

Joseph: Charlie’s point is pretty fair here. Most Frum self-identifying “MO”s do agree on certain issues, that’s why they identify as MO and not something else. Rabbi Gordimer has publicly (and strongly) stated that some of those things are completely beyond the pale, such as Yoatzot Halachah. He is certainly right on Chovevei and PORAT and other such things, but it might be untrue and unfair to call him “Modern Orthodox”. He’s somewhere between “MO” and Yeshivish.

Sam, mw13 makes an excellent point. If you’re going to eject Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer from being MO because you claim he is too much on the right-side of the religious spectrum for the true MO, surely you should banish from rightfully claiming to be MO those who are so much on the left of the spectrum (and I’m not only referring to the Open Orthodox) that they actually (unlike RAM) openly violate halacha b’shitta. Like some of the examples mw13 gave, those MO (who you should categorize are really between MO and Conservative) that wear miniskirts, pants, don’t cover their hair, wear short sleeve shirts, aren’t shomer negiah, eat in non-certified vegetable or dairy restaurants, keep “half Shabbos” r’l, etc.

I’m trying to figure out the purpose of this thread.

Have we sunken so low that our current form of entertainment is gossiping about various groups/individuals who do not keep Halacha as obligated and how they transgress? You find such people all across the Jewish spectrum unfortunately.

I think it’s wrong. No good can possibly emerge of it.

Joseph those people who are abusers , molesters, tax cheats and other sorts criminals but otherwise like the charedi life do you consider them Charedi?

Sam: Do you consider to be MO those who are openly toeiva, go to YU (where Cardoza and Einstein have YU funded and sanctioned toeiva clubs that are listed on the YU website and even REITS held a public toeiva symposium with an overflow attendance that was presided over by R. Blau) and self-identify as MO?

“the chazzan uses a mike”

If it is a Tzomet microphone — and it probably is — what is the problem?

YU is legally not MO, they are legally non-sectarian because of some government funding that only places that obey NY state laws about discrimation. Because certain people are considered minorites and illegal to discriamte against, YU had to obey the law or lose this funding which was significant and would have hurt many students as they use government funding to pay for school

There *are* synagogues that call themselves orthodox that use the Tzomet sound system on Shabat.

ftfy

Joseph said:

“Though, a notable difference between the two is that a self-identified chareidi who is a tax cheat when asked why he cheats on his taxes doesn’t answer “because I’m chareidi and chareidim hold its okay to under-report owed taxes”; otoh, a self-identified MO when asked why they wear pants, shirt skirts or aren’t shomer negiah often will answer that it is because they are MO and they hold b’shitta that it is okay to do that. “

While charaidim won’t justify their improper behavior with the excuse of “I’m charaidi so it’s muttar”, there seems to be some that use charaidism as a justification for their bad behavior. For example, there is a community that took millions from the government to do various public works and pocketed the money. Or the guys in Beit Shemesh that would verbally harass DL girls. All of those charadim (and more) felt that their cause justified their actions.

While I’ve seen more MO people skirt halacha (pun intended) on an individual basis, the few charaidim that act improperly stick out.