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Is recycling a scam or myth at best? Are there any benefits to recycling when it costs more to recycle an item than to produce a new one? Most recycling ends up in the same place as garbage so is it mostly just a way to increase revenue by ticketing people who dont separate recycling items? What are some better or additional ways to minimize waste and unnecessary junk? Im not a save the whales kind of guy but the environment does matter at least a little seeing how we eat the fish, animals and plants that all get contaminated by hazardous waste and items. It doesnt seem that recycling is the answer.
Some recycling is very profitable. But if your question is the environment, than the best way is simply to use less. Water, energy, foodstuff, and plastics. Also, remember to always clean up after yourself!
I put all my garbage into the regular garbage. Black bag, tied up.
I know commercial buildings that were ticketed for not recycling.
In some places it is much cheaper to recycle.
I think any jew who has an inclination towards environmentalism should consider the following:
Rav hirsch writes that it’s not possible for a species to be extinct; this is based on a lot of sources. (Manu argue with this). Rav Hirsch also writes that אותו ואת בנו, the mitzvah of not shechting a father animal and its son on the same day, is because it looks like extermination.
How does this fit? If we are incapable of extermination, why would we be cautioned against this?
The answer is that Hashem runs the world and nothing we do will affect it physically. We can have as many kids as we are able to, and there will never be a shortage of food or space. We can bathe as much as we want, drive whatever car we want, and fly in as many airplanes as we want, and the world will be just as functional and physically healthy as ever.
Mitzidainu, if we engage in behaviors which look like extermination or destruction of the world (insert italics) to our senses, or in the cases of the torah (as above), then we are guilty lf that aveirah, but as seen by our inability to actually cause extermination, this mitzvah is for our own middos. Similar to having hakaras hatov to inanimate objects, i.e. Moshe not hitting the dirt or the water – it will affect HIM, not the object.
What does affect the world? Our aveiros. The more aveiros the world (and especially klal yisroel) does, Hashem’s brochos are stifled. That our material succcess depends on our fulfillment of the Torah is axiomatic in tanach and chazal – it’s one of the most discuss topics in neviim. Devorim 28, for instance. Ki savo. “Al azvu es Hashem”, “tachas asher lo avadta”, the list goes on and on.
Environmentalism that is taken to mean that we are stewards of ths physical health of the world, and that it is out carbon footprint as opposed to our aveiros that harm the world, are included in the rambams famous piece that says that when bad things happen, and we attribute them to mikroh, to chance…it is not only heresy, but it is cruelty, because in doing so the denier of hashgocha causes others not to repent and continues the cycle of sin and punishment.
Environmentalism from a torah perspective is therefore repugnant, a denial of Hashem’s running the world, a scapegoat for introspection and teshuva should there actually be natural catastrophe, and of course…an import from the goyishe world without a shred of source in Torah.
I should distinguish between direct causes of localized harm, such as dumping oil into a reservoir, ruining a fishing area, etc…and indirect, theoretical causes on a global scale, such as emissions, factories, cutting down trees, etc..
All of that being said, recycling isn’t itself per force a product of that heresy. One can favor it because we value the things that Hashem has given us, and just as our bubbehs and zaydos would say “a shud yiddishe gelt”, and get as much use out of the scant resources they had…out of not wanting to be wasteful in respect and in gratitude for what Hashem gives us, i can see an ehrlich person in favor of recycling. But joining recycling enthusiasts or publicly advocating it would lend support to the deniers of hashgocha, including “frum” ones who buy into the media(even the “alternative”media personalities with fabric on their head)
There are some entire townships that don’t have a recycling department and all residents just throw everything into the garbage together
Some recycling is a scam, some is very critical. For some metals, such as steel, recycling is critical to the national economy. Done properly it lowers the costs to the local taxpayers who are liable to pay for landfills.
“I put all my garbage into the regular garbage. Black bag, tied up.”.
Azoy…and for all these years we were wondering why Mrs. J had never objected to some of your postings. Mystery solved.
On a serious note, other posters have correctly observed that the economics of the recycling market are volatile and material specific. Certain materials, especially certain metals, will always have scrap value and recycling makes sense for local governments. The most volatile prices seem to be for paper/cardboard where at times, they have to pay for disposal rather than selling at a net margin. The decline in new combined recycling/waste power generating plants is also problematic. If people are to take recycling seriously, local governments have to be honest in explaining the rationale for their programs.
Important to have priorities straight. Having a lofty mushy goal creates a lot of place for mistaken priorities and opportunities for enemy propaganda. Look at western Europeans who decided that thermometer is a bigger enemy than dictators. Now others are paying for their aveiros that they thought were mitzvos.
Whatever gets recycled even at no profit to the city saves transportation and dumping fees since NYC trash is now sent to Pennsylvania, Virginia, Kentucky and South Carolina at considerable cost for burial.
What about דיני דמלכותא דיני and a Chilul Hashem?
Reb Eliezer, do you ever cross the street on red if the road is completely empty on both sides, perhaps at night time or any other time, or do you ever jaywalk by crossing in middle of the (empty) block rather than going (all the way) to the corner (on a long avenue) as the law demands?
Or are you truly the tzadik who is concerned about Dina Dmalchusa and would never walk across the street on red or cross in middle of the block?
This depends on how people in your environment behave. It does not matter if the whole USA is trashy, but if you live in a clean neighborhood, you would need to uphold the standard. Similarly, if you, R’L live in a country where people don’t cross on red light on an empty street, you would need to do the same.
Different locations have different regulations, so those posting and not identifying location make comments that are not applicable to all readers.
Black plastic trash bags are not illegal here in CT. In fact our trash haulers require we use them inside the garbage cans. This reduces chances of vermin, especially in hot weather.
We have separate blue recycling cans. The next town does not separate the recyclables, but has a sorting operation at their transfer station (modern word for dump). This facility employs people with limited mental abilities who are suited to repetitive tasks, so it accomplishes multiple goals.
We recycle, glass, metal, cardboard in our blue bin. We have a compost area on our property for food waste. This is later used as fertilizer for our lawns and gardens. Old electronics are taken to our town’s transfer station and are purchased by a recycler who processes them and recovers precious metals from the circuit boards.
We have both garbage disposers in our sink to grind the food waste from dirty dishes, and trash compactors to crush our trash requiring fewer cans to be taken to the street and fewer black bags to be used each week.
Our town even has collection bins outside each public school for fabric waste…meaning ripped clothing, linens, etc. That are not suitable to be donated to charity, but are instead sold by weight and reprocessed. The money from received from this recycling buys additional books for school libraries, beyond the annual budgeted amount
Avira – And miztvos don’t affect the world?
Avira > much use out of the scant resources they had
you can see from Gemora how people used every part of an animal and broken items. for example, what is considered muktze – broken chairs, nails, combs – as long as they have some use in them. It is not just about binning things, but taking care of clothes, using Amzon boxes to store something. Once, when I started a new job and was writing my notes on the opposite side of a printout, my new boss came in, smiled, and said that he does the same. So, we bonded on that simple decent act (we did not pay for paper, of course).
Reb Eliezer, what Brocho do you make on דיני דמלכותא דיני?
HaLeivi, same as you do on ahavta reeha k’mocha. some actions are a brocha in themselves and do not require a brocha.
But if you insist – she lo asani ganav“Hashem runs the world and nothing we do will affect it physically. We can have as many kids as we are able to, and there will never be a shortage of food or space. We can bathe as much as we want, drive whatever car we want, and fly in as many airplanes as we want, and the world will be just as functional and physically healthy as ever.”
Avira – this is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on this site (aside from Joseph’s ramblings). Hashem runs the world through teva; i.e. the rules of nature. Our actions directly impact the physical planet that we live on. To deny this is to essentially take the incredible, detailed, fragile, beautiful planet that Hashem provided us with and throw it back in His face. It’s a disgusting attitude, and I hope you don’t spew such garbage to any impressionable people.
Who told you that the world is fragile? You’ve just devoured the claims of the climatologists – the same ones who predicted Armageddon when i was a kid, who said that by now there wouldn’t be coastal civilizations, etc.
Hashem runs the world through teva, but it is not our physical actions that change the world in teva – according to teva statistics in the 80s, the world’s population should not have anything to eat…but ma asah Hkb”h? He made more food available. The answer then wasn’t to, chas veshalom, listen to the statisticians and have less children.
We don’t have bechira to affect anyone else, let alone the world itself. That would undermine hashgocha. Perhaps wastefulness is an act of ingratitude, which itself might cause less bracha in the world as punishment for that sin, but the final outcome is totally bidei shomayim.
The fact that Hashem running the world and that our bechira doesn’t have independent consequences is “ridiculous” to you, only shows how much little you and almost everyone else here have been exposed to basic jewish hashkofa. I’m not saying any big chidushim here.
You’ve never dealt with the shailoh of how we can hurt ourselves if everything is min hashomayim?.
Take a look at rav avigdor miller’s hashkofa seforim, chovos halevavos shaar habitachon, and rav chaim friedlander (who presents the issues very systematically). The upshot is that for instance, playing in traffic on ocean parkway is a sin, so the person is punished for that sin by having the damage dealt ro him.
If someone attempts to poison someone else …here it gets complicated. No one can hurt you without it being a gezerah, ain odom nokev etzbo, etc. Yet a murderer is punished, even though no one can die without it being decreed on rosh Hashanah. The answer is that Hashem considers it as if you did it, because of your intention or negligence. This is how teshuva undoes the sin – it takes your portion, meaning your intention or negligence, out of the picture, and all that remains is the maysoh shomayim in the effect.
How a baal bechirah can affect you is discussed a lot by rav chaim friedlander. He says that his bechirah can bring you into a din torah in shomayim where they’re dan you in a stricter way than normal; he’s meorer dinim on that person by trying to hurt him.
Hence, poisoning the water can only affect others if it was decreed so , especially when it’s a rabim and not an individual. The poisoning would have happened without you, but you are held accountable for the ill intent.
When it comes to what the neviei sheker postulate… they’re not authoritative in deciding what’s a peshia/negligence. They’re political hacks who have no idea how the world works.
I live in a town that banned single use plastic bags over a decade ago. We have recycling for plastics metals and compostables. Styrofoam takeout containers and cups are also banned.You can pay for the disposal of packaging styrofoam at several locations in town. I live in a town the size of LKWD and we own our own dump that is managed by a waste management company. I’ve never had a problem with recycling, I’ve been recycling for over a half century. It does not impact my personal lifestyle. We also have 5 different diaper laundry services, which cuts back on disposable diapers in the landfill. It costs about $11.75 a month for a 35 gal trash can. Recycling bins, compost buckets and lawn and leaf bins are no charge to customers. Senior and veterans discounts are available. Trash pickup and recycling pick up is weekly.
I don’t produce a lot of trash, it’s just me, a housekeeper who comes in daily and my handyman who is here on a regular basis. I do not fill a 35 gal container on a monthly basis. I have friends with families with children(5+) and the majority of them do not fill a 35 gal container weekly. I think a lot has to do with lifestyle and values. Municipal surveys indicate if we were to pay to have our trash hauled and dumped in another area our costs per household would be at a minimum of $100 a month. Locally the disposal company sponsors shredding events (shredding paper for security purposes and making it easier to breakdown in a landfill) and commodity purchasing events several times a year. Life is very different whe
Just about every advanced economy in the world has adopted varying degrees of recycling both because of the favorable economics and some cultural/ethical version of “tikun olam”. In NYC and other major metro areas which are literally running out of space to dump solid waste, recycling provides for a small reduction in the need to export trash to more rural states at great cost to taxpayers. Even in developing economies, recycling in its most basic form is an economic imperative and the “waste” of the affluent literally provides economic sustenance to the more impoverished segments of the population. In countries like India and China, there are literally millions of people who survive by sorting through the waste dumped at landfills to find whatever they can resell for a few dollars a day. It becomes a “scam” only when there is no economic or environmental rationale for a particular recycling program and it is being done for some abstract “conservation” reason.
Cultural/, ethical tikun olam = mainstay of reform judaism.
They won’t like you very much though, you’ll be too frum for them.
Just because Reformim abuse tikun olam, does not mean that we should go destroy the oilam.
On a related note, a relatively recent article expounded on how so called aerosols actually cool the atmosphere by limiting the sun’s heat from passing through. I thought it was very telling about how what the environmentalists are saying and what’s really happening or not is beyond our comprehension. Hashem runs the world, and the “teva” is way more complicated than a + b = c.
It’s sad to see that according to Avira, “basic Jewish hashkafa” means not caring about being responsible for the health of the world Hashem provided us with, because hey, our actions can’t possibly impact other people, or the world in general. Your “basic Jewish hashkafa” is a disgusting, selfish, elitist attitude that has nothing to do with Judaism at all. edited embrace some common sense. Our actions as humans have consequences, both individually and globally. That is a fact. To deny this is denying how Hashem runs the world.
It’s a real shame someone even needs to bring this to your attention. I hope you don’t influence other people with your horribly selfish attitude.
“our actions as humans have consequences”
Does Hashem control everything that happens, or not?
Would those things happen regardless?
So many people don’t delve into… basic…jewish… theology. It’s really not very complicated. Read chovos helevavos. If you can’t, read the English version based on rav avigdor miller.
But judging from the knee jerk responses ignoring my thorough treatment of the subject with cries of “you’re selfish”, not “you’re wrong because sefer X says Y”, you have quite a long way to go emotionally before you can approach the subject.
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@AviraDeArah You don’t know how well we have it today. Before climatology became a thing, pollution was allowed to run rampant. The famous “London Fog” was really the “London Smog” and there were weeks where people couldn’t leave their homes without respiratory masks on. Rivers were filled with coal runoff and other carcinogens leading to rampant disease among kids and adults alike. Clean water was hard to come by.
Now, thanks to climate research and a better understanding of the environment, we can actually see the night sky from Manhattan, swim in a stream that’s not covered in plastic, and eat fish without worrying about how much heavy metal we’re absorbing.
AD: Even a bird can believe that the Ebeshter controls what happens in the world but forego fouling its own nest. We have had multiple threads over the years about complaints from neighbors that frum residents let garbage pile up on the street, fail to mow their lawns or maintain their shrubs etc. one of the responses is that somehow, the time associated with such activities is bitul torah or that large frum families cannot be expected to adhere to a goyishe “suburban aesthetic”. The two (being frum and being attentive to the environment) are not mutually exclusive.
Yawn. Avira, nice try trying to diffuse my common sense with a personal slight about my emotional capabilities. The reason sefarim don’t mention my point of view is because it’s common sense. I’d love for you to provide a source that states we can pollute, destroy, and alter the natural state of the world without consequence.
Are you aware that there have been mass extinctions directly caused by humans? That alone is proof that your position is fundamentally flawed. Do more soul searching and pull your head out of the garbage that you love so much.
Yehudis – do yourself a favor and. Read. Hashkofo. Seforim.
You clearly haven’t. If you believe you’re emotionally ready to accept the truth no matter what it is or how it makes you feel, then open a shaar bitachon and go through it – just once would dispel your claims.Which species have gone extinct? The mabul eliminated some, but rav hirsch writes that it’s impossible to make a species extinct afterwards.
Maybe take your head out of the museum of natural history, learn seforim with humility and without preconceived notions – it’s a good idea whether I’m right or wrong, no?
Avira – I did you a favor and found a source:
Behold my works, how pleasant and how beautiful they are. And I created it all for you! Be aware and don’t ruin or destroy my world, for if you ruin it, there is no one to come and fix it up after you.
ראה מעשי כמה נאים ומשובחין הן וכל מה שבראתי בשבילך בראתי תן דעתך שלא תקלקל ותחריב את עולמי שאם קלקלת אין מי שיתקן אחריך
–Midrash: Ecclesiastes Rabbah, 7:20Also look into the topic of shiluach hakan and lo sevashel g’di b’chalev imo- the idea that we aren’t allowed to take or kill a mother animal along with its child, because it gives off the appearance of destroying the entire species.
Avira > Which species have gone extinct? The mabul eliminated some, but rav hirsch writes that it’s impossible to make a species extinct afterwards.
Here are some species that might have gone extinct mostly after R Hirsch. Let me know if you saw one lately in Brooklyn. Talking about species, R Hirsch also did not expect that Germans can behave as they did …
Dodo
Great Auk
Stellers Sea Cow
Tasmanian Tiger
Passenger Pigeon
Pyrenean Ibex
Baiji White Dolphin
West African Black RhinocerosYehudis, we don’t always know where to go from common sense. Need humility and bitachon. See Europeans who put their trust in wind and sun, and became hostages to Putin. Not only their 20th century did not teach them humility, they still do not admit their errors and continue their self-righteous behavior. So, if we change our lives in pursuit of some lofty goals, we need to make sure that these goals do not lead to corruption. If you make goals simple – be honest, help others a little, and then pursue your own interest, people will do that. If you lure them tofar-awy goals, you never know where tish will lead.
Yehudis – that’s what the RCA quotes in their proclamation about environmentalism. Guess where else that medrash has been used in that context? Yep, that’s right – never. No one ever interpreted it that way, except the RCA rabbis who darshen up the new york times every shabbos.
Where has it been used? In the mesilas yeshorim, where he says not to destroy the world with our sins, the only actual potential for harm that’s possible. As the rambam says, one who attributes suffering to nature or other physical causes brings more suffering to the world, ignoring the spiritual causes and messages from Hashem.
AAQ, rav hirsch was aware of many species claimed to be extinct. He held that they’re not; the fact that scientists don’t see them doesn’t mean that they are – lo rainu einoh rayah. Scientists also sometimes find species that they thought were extinct.
It’s not a “hashaarah” like his view of the Germans. For that, it took someone like the Gaon to see past their outward appearance. Not all gedolim are the same.
Seeing spiritual causes does not take away a need to respond to physical world. Gemora is full of discussions what does or might happen in various cases and they respect knowledge of agriculture, science, etc. It is not a routine answer in Gemora to say – stop worrying about it, let Hashem take care of it.
Avira, an interesting point re: species. But as we established that R Hirsh is not infallible, we would need a better source. Say Rhinoceri (sp?) are big enough to be seen on satellite imagery. It would not be impossible to search whole earth images for them (if not found – should we presume that they live in someone’s basement?).
This is going about it wrong. We know of species that only exist in one small area. Sometimes in only one type of tree. And these species go extinct before humans ever lay an eye on them.
There’s a difference between a torah shitoh and a personal hashaarah; when judging someone, we see that even dovid erred in his understanding of his advisors. His torah, however, is Torah, and should be taken as authoritative as any other acharon.
Not clear why the concept of “extinction” of certain species is not compatible with a belief in a dynamic evolution of the world with all occurring in accordance to bio-physical principles promulgated by the Ebeshter. New species evolve over time as old ones go extinct. New technologies allow for reintroduction of biological clones of what are believed to be extinct species. Its not apikorsus to believe in some overall plan for these dynamics.
Dear Gadol,
That wouldn’t work according to the quasi scientific principles known in Rav Hirsch’s days. The science of classification is not stable anymore, and may never be. Rav Belsky compared what the yeshivaliet where saying about anasakis was the same thoughts proposed by Rabbi Slifkin. I could understand denying science or even math to hold on to what is an accepted truth. But this sure is a strange hill to be called a fool upon.
Avira – I’m not denying that our spiritual deeds have an effect on the natural world. I’m arguing that our physical actions ALSO clearly have an effect on the natural world. This isn’t about hashkafah or spiritual matters, it’s about reality and the physical world.
Rav Hirsch was clearly wrong about species going extinct. AAQ provided some examples, and there are many more. The passenger pigeon comes to mind as a great example. Not just animals, but plant species as well. But guess what – it’s okay that Rav Hirsch was wrong about this. Great scholars can be wrong all the time about scientific matters, but it doesn’t make their Torah in general any less important or truthful.
The gemara and rishonim are full of opinions about scientific matters that turned out to be incorrect, such as that the sun orbits around the earth. They were wrong about that, obviously, but it doesn’t disqualify the legitimacy of the entire Talmud. Previous generations who didn’t have the same information that we have about the causes and effects within our physical world would obviously see our ability to cause drastic change as minimal at best, and often an impossibility. But that doesn’t mean they’re right, it means they didn’t have the same knowledge. This isn’t just relegated to the viewpoint of classic Jewish theology. It was the worldview at large. That worldview has changed with new information, and so should ours.
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