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lol and it all comes together.
PAA, I hope you’re leaving 10% of the girls’ schools open.
Syag,
The difference between you and shidduchim101 (welcome to the CR!) is the following statement from her:
You were able to be strong, and value yourself for who you were. Our society hasn’t done much to directly label what it means to be an older single, it’s an indirect product of the great value we place on marriage. It’s a tough thing to be excluded, but you were able to get along fine, as you say, you “didn’t mind”.
So is it about anger/blame towards frum society, or is it about the “older” single valuing herself and her important role, right now, to not feel an outcast?
Neither. And that is why we were saying the exact SAME thing.
By the way DaasYochid, I’m sure you realize (but in case you didn’t, I’m pointing it out now) that my reference to my other thread was not saying that teaching girls gemara will solve the shidduch crisis. In fact I haven’t even discussed the shidduch crisis ever in the coffee room (as far as I can recall). My point was that there are similar factors in both cases, namely a lack of opportunities for females to achieve fulfillment outside of marriage. As writersoul aptly put it, a woman’s single years are seen as a waiting room. So it doesn’t surprise me that when someone turns the age at which she has an 85% of being stuck in the waiting room forever, she would cry. That is in part because of the way society makes it seem as if it is a waiting room. Would it help if women could learn Gemara? Maybe it would give them some sense of fulfillment, maybe not. Many males in fact deliberately push off marriage solely for the sake of achievement in their learning.
Syag, who’s “we”?
PAA, there are plenty of opportunities for single women to accomplish great things without horving over a Rashb”a, and as I said, the impetus is not on society to shift its focus away from marriage.
Those who aren’t married should do as Syag did, and focus on their achievements and accomplishments. That’s not society’s job, that’s their job, and as I’ve said several times, individuals have to have the proper sensitivity towards everyone according to their needs, which, regarding singles, includes focusing on and celebrating who they are and what they accomplish rather than any other future accomplishments which are as of yet unfulfilled.
PAA: On the same token perhaps we ought to suggest that men will get some sense of fulfillment by baking cookies and cleaning the house?
“So is it about anger/blame towards frum society, or is it about the “older” single valuing herself and her important role, right now, to not feel an outcast?”
Those are not mutually exclusive. Yes the older single should attempt to value herself as much as possible but that doesn’t change the metzius of whether or not society causes it to be hard for her to value herself.
Shidduchim101, thank you for responding and clarifying. I didn’t think you were aligning yourself with secular values. I just think that considering that the issue comes from the Torah’s value system, which places a high priority on marriage, the idea of anger is misplaced, and your supervisor’s reaction is irrelevant. What is important is education for us married folks as to what we can avoid which is demeaning, and what we can do which is more appropriately respectful.
“PAA, there are plenty of opportunities for single women to accomplish great things without horving over a Rashb”a, and as I said, the impetus is not on society to shift its focus away from marriage.”
I didn’t say that society should shift away from focus on marriage. What it should do is also focus on other things so that the people who aren’t married feel like they are doing something worthwhile. If society never acknowledges the great things that single women can accomplish then some of them (because obviously there will be those like Syag who can deal with it) won’t feel good about themselves. Learning is just one example of something that might give them fulfillment.
Lior:
What is the suggestion? There are definitely men who get fulfillment from baking and cleaning. They should bake and clean to whatever degree it enhances their fulfillment (obviously taking into account other responsibilities.) I’m not sure what your point was.
Oh, and PAA, of course my reaction was way over the top (and I hope you took my comments in the humorous manner intended), but the subtle point I was making in sincerity was that it’s not for us to overhaul a system put in place by Chaza”l with eternal, everlasting values and truth at its core, but rather, to work as best within that system to the betterment of everyone.
DaasYochid:
Just to clarify whether we are we are disagreeing and to what extent: Do you agree that society is partly at fault for causing single women to feel this way, but you just think that the way it should be addressed is by the individuals changing (singles working on their self-worth and insensitives working on their sensitivity) or do you think that society is not to blame at all?
don’t use me as an example, I was agreeing with the author and disagreeing with you.
The author and I BOTH understood our own value and that a shidduch would come when the time is right. It is society who has decided the deadline. You are completely missing the point she, I and PAA are making. It isn’t about whether or not marriage is important, it isn’t about whether or not we can sense our own value, it is about the people around us who think that if it is important to be married, than those who are not married cannot possibly feel/be important. And worse than that, they project their sense of pity upon us, expecting that we can’t possibly feel any intrinsic value if we have (gasp) reached 23 unmarried.
PAA, excellent question. I haven’t denied, per se, the possibility that society, rather than individuals, are at fault. I just haven’t heard a valid complaint.
The context shidduchim101 put it into is wrong. How can we possibly agree with the anger expressed by someone who has a totally different value system regarding marriage!
I reject your notion that wrxare at fault for not teaching women Gemara, because there are other, competing values, and I think we’re correct.
I would be more than happy to consider a valid critique against “society”, but I haven’t yet heard one. I haven’t seen any specific examples of how our values incorrectly manifest themselves.
PAA – my feeling of self worth and knowing I didn’t want to be married before meeting the right one did not stop others from treating me as if I were worth two cents. You are correct, society has it all wrong and they need to learn the difference between valuing a goal, and showering disdain on those who have not yet reached it. But there are so many other critical things they have not yet learned, my hopes for change on something like this are close to nil. Especially since it is such a struggle to just get other to admit their part in it 🙂
Syag, I’m sorry for the pain you went through. I would still like to hear what we can do better (as a society, rather than as individuals).
It’s interesting that it’s a mitzvah for men to marry, while a woman has no obligation.
I’ve heard different, and often opposing reasons for it, though.
I haven’t seen any specific examples of how our values incorrectly manifest themselves.
than you must be typing with your eyes closed
I wouldn’t call frustration at people’s ignorance, pain.
than you must be typing with your eyes closed
Please explain. You are being very cryptic, and I don’t have ruach hakodesh.
“Oh, and PAA, of course my reaction was way over the top (and I hope you took my comments in the humorous manner intended)”
I did but even if I didn’t it’s ok. It’s just a shame that in that whole paragraph there isn’t one line that I can excerpt for PAA’s not-always-in-context Coffee Room Report Card Comments.
“PAA, excellent question. I haven’t denied, per se, the possibility that society, rather than individuals, are at fault.”
And I haven’t denied that individuals are at fault. It’s a combination of societal values plus insensitive people.
“How can we possibly agree with the anger expressed by someone who has a totally different value system regarding marriage!”
If you are talking about the secular colleague then I agree that we shouldn’t agree with her way of expressing anger, because she was disparaging the entire society. What I am doing is pointing out that there is a specific problem in that the way our society portrays women is such that if a woman is older and unmarried she may feel bad/pitied/worthless etc. Now I don’t know if there is a simple answer or even any answer at all. My suggestion is that without focusing less on marriage, we should also focus on other things which can help a woman feel good about herself regardless of what stage of life she is in. Also, I am not saying that anyone is at fault for not teaching girls Gemara. I will try to clarify my point about that: in the other thread I was simply pointing out several things which I perceive to be less than perfect in regards to women in Judaism. I suggested that if women would learn Gemara it might alleviate some of these issues. I was saying that in that thread to explain some of the possible reasons why people nowadays would be pro women learning Gemara besides for the desire for equality. When I quoted that here, it was not to say that learning gemara would help the situation here; I was simply using the same type of argument – that there is a dearth of things which women are led to feel accomplished about outside of marriage. It could be that learning gemara would help the situation here; it could be it won’t. And it could be that there are overriding reasons for girls not to learn gemara. But I was not connecting that to shidduchim.
I think we’re mostly in agreement, because my main issue was indeed the agreement with the secular supervisor. There are two points with which I’ll disagree, though.
1) there is a specific problem in that the way our society portrays women is such that if a woman is older and unmarried she may feel bad/pitied/worthless etc.
I don’t think this is a women’s issue. The older single men seem to be expressing a similar sentiment.
2) there is a dearth of things which women are led to feel accomplished about outside of marriage
I don’t think that vacuum exists. I think the issue is that nothing is as valued as her role in marriage, not that other things aren’t considered accomplishments.
I believe that your statement that “I don’t know if there is a simple answer or even any answer at all” shows that we are much more in agreement than disagreement; if there’s possibly no solution, anger and blame are sorely out of place.
In fact, your statement, It’s a combination of societal values plus insensitive people. nicely sums up my position.
I don’t think this is a women’s issue. The older single men seem to be expressing a similar sentiment.
Shtuyot. I’ve never heard a man express anything of the sort.
I don’t think that vacuum exists. I think the issue is that nothing is as valued as her role in marriage, not that other things aren’t considered accomplishments.
Other way around. Nothing is as unvalued as her role in marriage. If society valued her role in marriage, it wouldn’t leave her out in the cold like this.
DaasYochid:
So it seems as if the only thing we are disagreeing about is whether or not a woman (or perhaps a man) has the right to cast a certain amount of blame on society for its role in causing her(or him) to feel [insert emotion here].
Actually I think we argue about one other point as well. You said “I don’t think that vacuum exists. I think the issue is that nothing is as valued as her role in marriage, not that other things aren’t considered accomplishments.” I agree that in theory they are considered accomplishments but they are rarely if ever spoken about or stressed in any significant way such that the general populace when seeing an older single would realize not to pity her.
I don’t think that’s a general rule. I could see someone blaming society, for instance, for being too decadent and making someone who can’t afford the decadence feel bad (I still think it’s more proper and healthy to work on the middah of mistapek b’muat than to rant against fancy cars, watches, vacations, etc.)
As I said, I’m willing to listen to a reasoned, well articulated complaint against society regarding shidduchim and older singles, I just think it hasn’t been made yet in this thread (for the reasons I’ve given).
I don’t believe that singles disagree that society should value marriage to the extent that we do. They all (with rare exception) want to get married sooner rather than later.
They say we shouldn’t only focus on the fact that they aren’t married but they also say that we should constantly make lists of the single guys and girls (I call my married friends ‘girls’, too) that we know and try to set them up.
All they want is the same thing anyone ever wants. They want to be viewed by who they are as a person and not by their circumstance of which they have no choice. They want you to notice everything they have accomplished and not to notice the things that are not yet on the table. And, if you can think of a good shidduch for them, they want you to be proactive and set it up.
Well said, interjection.
I call my married friends ‘girls’, too
These aren’t all your friends.
I call my married friends ‘girls’, too
These aren’t all your friends.
True but at the age that they become women, their single counterparts are also women.
True but at the age that they become women, their single counterparts are also women.
yes, but you shouldn’t be disrespectful to married or single women.
Wait, so what came first? A 25 yr old girl feeling bad that she’s not married yet, thereby causing society to pity her; or society pitying her for being 25 and not married yet causing her pressure and feeling bad that shes not married yet?
It is amazing how no one wants to address the root cause of the problem. Support. Support. Support. When this support insanity stops there will be no more Shidduch crisis. One who is old enough to get married is old enough to support themselves.
emesvyatziv – support is quite literally the third rail. There has been support (a dowry) for hundreds of years. Without support, the Kollel system collapses, bochrim go to college, the mabul reoccurs, and the earth flies away from the sun.
And CV, it might lead to mixed dancing.
As I said in another thread:
P.S. This is entirely consistent with the world-view of many Gedolim (following Rav Dessler), that they would rather support Kollelim and let the children go off the Derech, given those are the only two options. I’m not saying it is wrong, but it does go back to spending yenem’s money while your own priorities are elsewhere.
That wud be true if the only girls still single were the ones who cudnt afford support. If you wanna bash learning, just stick with the reasons that wont sound like you have ulterior motives.
>I don’t think this is a women’s issue. The older single men seem >to be expressing a similar sentiment.
>Shtuyot. I’ve never heard a man express anything of the sort.
Just to reply to a post a few comments up- I dont think all guys express the same sentiments- (ie. bad/pitied/worthless etc.) but there is certain level of shame that some men exhibit and feel once they have dated for a few years, and are still not married.It can be hard at times to be part of a community that expects (rightly or wrongly) that everyone girl/boy be married at a certain age- and if not…well…keep at it, put your best face forward, daven, date, etc. I recall one friend, while in Yeshiva, was very affected by the whole process and would withdraw inbetween suggestions as he was constantly waiting for the next one.
Shtuyot. I’ve never heard a man express anything of the sort.
The alta bochur in the gelilah thread. Maybe not pitied, but undervalued.
Other way around. Nothing is as unvalued as her role in marriage. If society valued her role in marriage, it wouldn’t leave her out in the cold like this.
I don’t know what you mean.
DY, btw, one thing worth mentioning, in the Tefilla for Shidduchim (from the Shlah?) it uses the lashon “ben zugi hamuchan li”.
Ya
What I’m saying us in no way a contradiction to the Shelah’s tefillah.
Women deserve to be recognized by what they do and not by their marital status and I totally agree that unfortunately most girls categorize themselves by “single” or “married” as opposed to “does chessed”, “has a good job”, “loving family”, “loves to read”.
Why would anyone characterize themselves as “loves to read”?! That’s a pretty silly way to characterize someone. Do we characterize others for “loves to play Mortal Kombat II”? Characterizing her as being married is much more relevant about her than any of that. Marriage is also much more relevant than characterizing someone for “having a good job”.
It is simply an example. You can put anything in there, but there is no difference if someone is “loves to dance” or “smart”. Why is it okay to say she does chessed and not okay that she has a job? With a job she can support a family and give tzedaka and with hobbies she becomes a dynamic person that can contribute to her community and those around her.
A women’s tachlis in life is her family.
I’m the wrong one to ask but it seems kinda funny to me to specifically use that lashon…
“A women’s tachlis in life is her family.”
Yet she does not have a commandment to have children…
You understand I don’t disagree that a woman achieves fulfillment by having a family, I just don’t agree with the pressure that we place on young women getting married. Marriage does not make someone a better person and I think it is time we valued the women in our community regardless of whether they are married or not.
“A women’s tachlis in life is her family.”
Akeidas Yitzchak Parshas Bereishis Sha’ar 9:
???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?”? ?”? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?”? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??’ ????? ?? ???????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?????
Would you suggest to a career-oriented woman with a good job at a good company, where marriage and child-birth will be career slowing events inhibiting her advancement to rather choose to delay marriage until her upper 40s and forgo having children – because as you said she h a s no commandment to have children and she defines herself by her advancing career that she wouldn’t want to risk derailing with maternity leave?
kapusta- is the problem that the loshon is not PC?
Or the Ralbag’s view:
?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??”? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??”? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????
(Parshas Bereishis)
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