- This topic has 155 replies, 42 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
Very long article with lots of comments. Interesting read:
The follow up:
I’m also including this from a few month ago:
Questions? Comments? Rotten tomatoes?
Everyone has a shidduch crisis until they get married – always has been that way, always will be that way.
One thing that concerned me is that Mr. Rechnitz in the original article said a certain significant percent of girls will never be able to get married under the current statistics due to the age gap. This cannot be changed but it could only be fixed for future generations of girls in shidduchim by making the necessary changes.
After negative feedback on this point, Mr. Rechnitz followed up in his next article apologizing for saying the above causing pain and clarifying he didn’t mean what he said. Well, if it is true (and he does not retract the factuality of his original point) he shouldn’t be apologizing for saying the truth however hard it is to accept the fact. In fact, it must be said rather than sweeping it under the rug.
A side point is that the title “no Shidduch Crisis” doesn’t make sense when he then goes on to point out there IS a shidduch crisis due to the age gap.
I guess he agrees with the posters here who have said there’s no shidduch crisis. (tongue firmly in cheek – he goes on to explain that the proper term is “catastrophe”)
If he can manage to change the norm to boys marrying at age 20-21 without compromising their learning or shalom bayis, he will have earned himself one gigantic z’chus. May he have the siyata dishmaya to succeed.
If I read through it all, you’ll reopen…?
Ariele- incorrect. according to the article there is no shidduch CRISIS but there is a shidduch CATASTROPHE
Title was intended to get people to read it, his twist is that its not a crisis, rather a catastrophe.
His heart is in the right place, but money is not going to solve this problem. If it would it would have been done a long time ago.
Nothing is going to change until people’s attitudes change. Part of this is institutional and part is societal. The age gap is just a symptom treating a symptom without treating the disease won’t cure anyone.
What I take issue with, in all these discussions and searches for solutions concerning the so-called Shidduch “crisis” is: WHERE IS THE EMUNAH?! Where is the belief that everything comes from Hashem?! When Hashem decides it’s time to send someone their Zivug (and let’s not forget that everyone has a Zivug), then you’re going to get married! No such thing as a Shidduch crisis! Having to wait for your Bashert is merely a heart-wrenching Nisayon but a Nisayon, like many other difficult Ones, nevertheless ! Why isn’t there a movement to solve the infertility “crisis” as well, for those couples going thru that heartbreak?! Because the answer is simple: the only thing that can help solve ANY crisis, is Tefillah. Rabbi Ezriel Tauber, shlita, once said in a Shiur I was at, “A single can technically sit and twiddle his thumbs, and he won’t get married any later than if he runs after every Shadchan in the world !” The only reason we do our (reasonable, not excessive!) Hishtadlus is because Hashem commands us to, but in reality, our Hishtadlus accomplishes nothing! Hashem is controlling it all, we are merely puppets. The only solution to the Sidduch crisis and others is Emunah and Tefillah. Period.
DY: If you listen to him on the above linked video, he maintains that if the guys get married younger, at age 20 (like his son-in-law), it will generally INCREASE the shalom bayis.
I happen to agree. When I got married at 20, I probably wasn’t as mature as I could have ben but neither was I entrenched in my ways. my wife and I matured and grew together which was easier BECAUSE we were both young and not molded in our opinions yet
Francorachel3: How do you account for periods of war when many young unmarried men die leaving a surplus of unmarried women. Are all those women able to get married even though there are less unmarried men than unmarried women?
Ariele, am I obligated to agree with him?
I think in the long term, a societal shift to younger chassanim might not be so harmful, but in the short term, it’s dangerous for the Nachshon who tries it.
DY: If Mr. Rechnitz’s reasoning (which he gives above) why it is better for chasanim to get married younger is correct, then it is equally applicable in the short term as it is in the long term. You are free to disagree with him. But why do you think the litvishe chasanim who get married younger today (and there always have been such, such as Mr. Rechnitz’s son-in-law, TBONTB and others) are in greater SB danger than their contemporaries who get married a couple of years older?
To be or not to be – Do you really think that boys getting married younger is a better approach? Some, if not all, lack the human decency that is expected in dating etiquette, as well as lack of life experience that inevitably comes with age.
And if you don’t mind my asking, is your wife older than you or younger?
To Francorachel3
Bashert does NOT mean that it will happen.
It means that it is a match recommended in heaven,
all things being equal. Meaning if there is Emunah in Chaz”al
that a man should marry at 18-20.
No robber ever got away with the excuse that it was Bashert that he steal.
The Steipler berated an older Bochur that he botched up his Bashert because he dallied(Shteiged) and MISSED his Bashert.
Misplaced Emunah is very dangerous.
Everyone runs to Reb Chaim Kanievsky for his Bracha and NOT for his Hadracha!
He says that boys should start at 17.
The Chofetz Chaim married at 18 and Shteiged to become one of the greatest Poskim in our history.
How can anyone offer any excuse for boys to delay, when there are thousands of older single girls and their families who are suffering?
Is two years of Shteiging worth ruining the lives of so many.
In addition to the fact that the Nisyonos for single boys are so much worse today than ever before.
More boys than girls are born EVERY year (you can check it out.)
There are enough boys available for all the girls, IF they would start younger.
The supply of boys is being manipulated and held back from entering the market, similar to an artificial shortage of merchandise.
We ALL are responsible and should speak up to our Rabbanim, Roshei Yeshivos, parents and young men.
We are our own enemies.
Let us join SYR and bring about the necessary change to remedy the problem.
To Francorachel3
Please ask Rabbi Tauber why is it that EVERY Chasidishe girl gets married, and by the non-Chasiddim there is a crisis?
When I was in yeshiva, there were many who would have gotten married early, but were afraid. Not sure of what if there were any stigma, how long would it last? In five years h would be a regular member of the community and no one would care how old he is.
However, since there seems to be some sort of stigma (whether real or artificial) how can we protect or glamorize getting married younger in order to lessen the issue
( and is it possible that if we approach bochurim from a perspective of them getting married earlier AS being better for them, and not because of it being good for the girls, would that that get more guys to date earlier
How can you compare to the example of someone stealing?! It states clearly that everything is in the hands of Hashem EXCEPT for Yiras Shamayim (the choice between doing Aveiros or Mitzvos). That clearly means that Hishtadlus accomplishes nothing, it’s still all up to Hashem. Of course He wants us to make effort in order to allow for events to happen in the natural order, but again, worrying about age and all minds if other desperate solution seeking accomplishes zero. Only Tefiila and Emunah. Only Hashem decides and decides when and if to make it happen. Not the Shadchanim, not the Rabbanim, not the many so called solutions will work.
To Francorachel3
So Hashem decided that ALL Chasiddishe girls will get married,
while others wont??????????
Rhetorical questions are good at convincing people but do not always lead to truth.
With all due respect you sound a bit unable to grasp a simple concept. “ALL Chassidishe girls are married?!” And are ALL non-Chassidish girls NOT married? Where does this kind of ridiculous reasoning come from? Perhaps immaturity, I take it you’re very young? Your over simplifications and irrelevant over-exaggerated examples really don’t help make a case for you,
Ok , how about this, all of us probably know at least a few boys and girls in the parsha who have been waiting a while. How about tomorrow morning all of us take the time to call a shadchan and try getting them to red it, or red a shiduch on our own, it is summer break, most of us could probably find the time, and ..who knows? maybe something will happen. if it doesn’t work out then it doesn’t but at least we tried.
If the age gap is the true cause of the shidduch “catastrophe” as Rechnitz and others say, it means that the boys have no crisis at all and are generally all getting married while the catastrophe is essentially on the girls side.
Which also means more shadchanim including professionals as well as personal initiatives by private non-professionals such as by most of us here, will essentially not help the catastrophe as the boys are getting married while the girls who aren’t is because there aren’t boys left for them to marry.
And it means that any other suggestion, more singles get-togethers, more realistic mothers and/or boys, less narishkeit, etc. will not do much good either.
Francorachel3,
Yes i know few places in shas mention “everything is in the hands of Hashem EXCEPT for Yiras Shamayim”.
But we still have a free choice to mess it up!
That’s why we don’t cross a road with our eyes closed…etc.
We cant blindly keep the boys off the market and hope for the best.
It seems that I’m the only one who heard this: Several years ago, BMG was thinking about changing the freezer to attempt to fix the shidduch crisis. They wanted to make a rule that you only could go to the freezer if you were 22 and a half, Pesach time. After that, you wouldn’t have to go through the freezer. One of the Lakewood Roshei yeshiva went and spoke to one of the Gedolei Hador in Eretz Yisroel about this idea. The gadol told him that the idea wouldn’t work because it wouldn’t stop anyone. If they didn’t want to go through the bmg system, they would just go somewhere else.
R’ Rechnitz has a whole arichus here about the “rosh yeshiva shiur system”. I don’t undersatnd the system at all. It encourages boys to leave their Rebbe eventually.
Because a bochur needs a different shiur at 21 than he needed at 18.
JUST TO POINT OUT…..
THERE are many 23 year old guys who are very yeshivish and not too worldly. if they were to go out with a 22 year old girl who is out there -with a job, they would be eaten alive. these guys need a girl straight our of seminary to match their straight out the Rashba
So Hashem decided that ALL Chasiddishe girls will get married,
while others wont??????????
Francorochel3 is correct that Hashem is the one running the show, and has indeed apparently decided that a higher percentage of chassidishe girls will get married than girls from litvishe homes.
She’s incorrect that we can sit back and do nothing and be someich al haneis, and she’s misunderstanding the Chazal about the bas kol, which was never meant as a guarantee that everyone will get married.
Which also means more shadchanim including professionals as well as personal initiatives by private non-professionals such as by most of us here, will essentially not help the catastrophe as the boys are getting married while the girls who aren’t is because there aren’t boys left for them to marry.
And it means that any other suggestion, more singles get-togethers, more realistic mothers and/or boys, less narishkeit, etc. will not do much good either.
They may not solve it entirely, since they won’t help the discrepancy, but it will help. It’s not as if all boys get married as soon as they want to.
“It’s not as if all boys get married as soon as they want to.”
It’s a crisis if the boys get married a bit later? Many girls aren’t getting married altogether; I get that. But the boys are getting married either a bit earlier or a bit later.
can anyone explain me why there was no shiduch crisis 35-40 years ago. the baby boomer litvisher oilam was getting married with an age gap but looking at our 60 yr olds we see no evidence of any crisis.
i have no agenda- just maybe by examining history we can find a solution.
yes, the population was extremely smaller but it doesent seem to me that there are more 60 year old women not married then men.
YP: I can’t speak for 60 year olds, but through my parents, I know of many 55 year old older singles. (Ironically enough, they are all men, and to be fair, I can see why they’re still single.)
A factor may be that there’s now more of a “yeshivish system” as opposed to back then when there was somewhat less of a whole process in shidduchim. Also less (MUCH less) kollel.
As far as Mr Rechnitz’s whole statistics thing, that’s what really got my family roiled up. It seemed dangerously like pulling statistics out of a hat- it’s impossible to say how many people “will never get married”- it’s pure extrapolation (of dubious statistics in the first place) when really each person is different and there is no way of knowing.
Take one Bais Yaakov high school class. By Mr Rechnitz’s magical cut-off date of 25, only 70% of the class was married. By the time they hit their 25th reunion, there was a 100% marriage success rate (actually, 110%, but that’s not the point).
Shooting out numbers like that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It only resigns people to their bad-as-death fate without cause. (The whole “bad-as-death” thing is another problem, but I’m late for work so I’ll leave it for now.)
However, since there seems to be some sort of stigma (whether real or artificial) how can we protect or glamorize getting married younger in order to lessen the issue
Can someone explain this stigma to me? Don’t most boys want to get married? Is the stigma coming because of what their fellow yeshiva mates will think, or because barely anyone in our society would take a 20 yr old boy seriously?
It has been a while since we last discussed this, but nas I have not gotten a meaningful reply I’ll try again:
Here is my question,
The root of the “age gap” TM theory is that there are more girls per guys in the effective dating pool, and threfore many of them are doomed to remain single.
Now, when asking around practicaly speaking what are the effects of the “shiduch crises” The problem I hear is girlds are not getting dates. While a guy m,ay go out on severla nights with diffrenntg irls, many girls are sitting at home waiting for a date.
Now this is where the “age gap” TM falls apart. Dating is NOT done 1:1. As mentioned above a guy goes out with severla differnt girls before he finds “the one” and marries that one. so even if 100 guys are dating 110 girls, granted 10 would rmeain single, butthe 100 guys are providing at on average 400 dates (I estimate an average of 4 girls per guy feel fre to say it is higher or lower I dont have hard data). 400 DATES is enough for all 110 girls. The girls should all be getting dates, yet some remain unmarried, but this does not seem to be the case. Girls say thye are not getting dates.
The “age gap” TM can not be the casue of the above (granted it may exacerbate the problem).
Or am I missing something?
DaasYochid
Does it make sense to you that Hashem decided
that Litvishe girls remain single?
I challenge all of you to speak to a relative living in Williamsburg, Monroe, or to authentic Chassidim anywhere.
You will find that ALL Chasiddishe girls get married.
Hashem made created a Shidduch for every Litvishe girl as well.
It is the system of boys starting late that is at fault.
Do NOT accuse Hashem of this cruelty!
ubiquitin
Because there are so many girls to choose from;
the boys will choose to date those who have more money,
are more attractive, etc.
If all boys 20 and over would enter Shidduchim today,
the boys would beg for a date and ALL Litvishe girls would get married.
Why would the boys be stupid enough to give up their advantage by jumping into dating early and creating a greater demand for girls and therefore reducing their likelihood of being able to choose a top girl?
Be truthful, I still don’t get it
So the “solution” is to create a reverse gap where the boys are outnumbered and so dessparte to get married that they no longer care for looks and money?
How long do you imagine this taking?
Besides, as MAlim said. How on earth can a “solution” work, when the premise is that guys should give up the advantage?
Furthermore, keep in mind new girls are turning 18 every day. IF the only change is the age of guys going out to the extent that they outnumber the girls, there will still be another girl tommrorow and the day after. The dating pool is dynamic. Unless you solve the crux of the issue (which you identified part of) you will never solve out the problem
Why not have girls start getting married at 20 and up as opposed to 18?? Who decided that girls are ready to get married at a younger age!? Thats what’s causing the issues here! Maybe girls should come back from seminary and begin (or finish) working on degrees and parnassah opportunities before running to get married. Allowing for bochurim to finish their yeshiva growth and not hindering many girls from finding shidduchim!
Who said anything about sitting around doing nothing? I never did, I said a person is obligated to do their Hishtadlus but the fact is, Hishtadlus accomplishes nothing. If you don’t beleive that, then you’re guilty of believing in Kochi v’otzem yadi. But driving oneself nuts running after every Shadchan, every new “so,union,” Segulah, etc. is nothing more than a desperate lack of Emunah.
Besides for the Age Gap problem we need to look at something that we (each one of us here) CAN change…
Chasiddishe boys sometimes get married after they turned 23 and they may even marry a girl who is 19 but it doesnt destroy their system because…
1)Chasiddishe boys are taught to respect and like all types of Chasiddishe girls
2)Chasiddishe girls are taught to respect and like all types of Chasiddishe boys
(Too skinny, too fat, too old, too young, too ugly, too poor, too many health issues, too many problems with parents, too much into working instead of learning…etc.)
A moderator contacted me to tell me that a poster requested that I remove (or the mods remove) my comment about the bas kol, as it is a very emotional issue, and the comment is not helpful. Let me just say that I had and have no intention of ch’v causing any bas Yisroel tza’ar, and I apologize if that happened.
To this poster I say:
I understand that there’s an emotional balm to thinking that everyone has their “bashert”, who they will certainly marry, but don’t you see the potential harm in it?
Don’t you see how on a communal level, it allows us to look away from the plight of bnos Yisroel and leave it in Hashem’s hands (which, of course, it ultimately is) but ignore our responsibilities?
Wouldn’t you agree that such thinking absolves individuals from making responsible decisions? Imagine, every boy can hold out for a girl with all of the ma’alos he wants, p’nimiyus and chitzoniyus, and throw in wealth for good measure, and any suggestion he rejects can be chalked up to “Well, obviously, this wasn’t my bashert!”. The same is true regarding girls holding out until they find a boy with all of the items on their predetermined checklist.
Finally, when we see that throughout history that many people have passed on without marrying, can we not worry that it can erode our faith in the words of Chazal to suggest that they made a guarantee that every single person will marry?
So, no don’t give up faith in Hashem’s ability to find a shidduch for anyone; daven, and work on making yourself the best possible spouse, and have emunah that whatever He does is for the best.
nas I have not gotten a meaningful reply
You have, you’ve chosen to ignore it.
Yes, you are missing something, but I have no desire to rehash the argument.
Be Truthful, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Hashem’s ways are just, whether we understand them or not.
Modern Chasid: Wouldn’t work. Even Mr Rechnitz admits that in his piece (or was it Freddy Friedman). No girl wants to be the Nachshon for fear that she’ll miss her chance to get married. Because they see themselves as limited-shelf-life, they jump off the plane and lose no time in beginning to date. Even if there was some takanah, even if only one person doesn’t listen and gets engaged immediately, it would cause a panic.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.