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It isn’t anything new that mosdos take money from those who they wouldn’t accept in a million years.
he seems to be saying the exact opposite of his speech
I disagree. I think the Lakewood bashers gleefully celebrated his speech as criticism of the whole Lakewood kollel community, but it was never meant that way.
Well said yichusdik.
It was well written, but completely wrong. Would it be okay to accept a donation from a non observant philanthropist who despite his own non observance believes in the value of a Torah education? I think so, and yet I don’t think that means regular yeshivos are obligated to accept kids from non observant homes.
daas baal habayis hepech daas toirah
apushatayid -“Health. When they came running they asked for his money. With that he has the right to say whatever he wants because he now has skin in the game.”
I never said that, but you did:
“Unless of course they ask for a capital investment (donation) them he has a right to make suggestions.”
Stop with your hypocrisy!
yeru613
“Also, i am curious… what percentage just “fell” through the cracks without any pull or whatever”
What percentage do you consider acceptable?
As I was at pains to say, It’s not wrong for the not-frum-enough philanthropist to make any donation he wants, and its not a halachic problem (at least from the perspective of hilchos tzedaka. It may be an issue of maaris ayin or chilul hashem) to take his money even if you wont take his kid. But it sends an immoral, hypocritical, inequitable and dissolute message to all those I mentioned earlier and to the entire oilem that elitists will reject you and your kids but take your money.
As I have been saying (a few times already) Just because one CAN do something doesn’t mean one SHOULD.
“Stop with your hypocrisy!”
Hypocricy? I think I am being very consistent here. These mosdos are private businesses, as such they can be run as the management sees fit and they are beholden to noone except their clientele. Once they start asking other people for money, they open themselves up to those peoples input as well whether they like it, or not.
Regarding taking money from someone who you would never accept into your mossad, that is not something new or unique to Lakewood.
yichusdik: You have still been unable to answer DY’s pointed question whether you think it is wrong for a Yeshiva to accept a donation from a non-Orthodox Jew, as a Yeshiva won’t accept a Mechallel Shabbos child.
Yes, he still has not answered that.
As someone who went to a school where they did take Non-Orhtodox children
I can tell you the results, over 95% of the relgious kids stayed religious. A few obviously left, but I have no idea if that was because they met the non-relgious kids or not, I am sure some left for that reason.
about 20-30% of the non-relgious kids are now religous which to me is a pretty good success rate given the circumstances. If a school refuses to take a non-relgious kid and they good to public school, I can pretty much gurantee the likelyhood they will be relgious is alot less than 20-30%
But in general there was a net gain evne if there was some loss
To answer you both directly, Joseph and DY, I think it is halachically acceptable but morally reprehensible. And there is precedent in halacha for this perspective. Chalitza is a halachic construct that permits but detests the decision of a man not to perform the mitzvah of Yibum. And the Torah permits an individual to be a Nazir, even though it detests the presumption of making such a neder and demands a korban chatos after doing so.
But we don’t even have to go as far as a non orthodox Jew. The elitist mosdos we were all talking about won’t even take in a frum kid who isn’t one of their Stepford Children.
And I am also prepared to consider that there are some basic standards that don’t necessarily make a mosod “elitist” by demanding them. (Shabbos, Kashrus, a reasonable level of tzniyus) At the same time, though, the demands may be a priori, but the acceptance should not be. And by this I mean, the mosod could be able to say – We will accept any Jewish child who from the point of his or her acceptance forward, their parents agree to abide by all the stringencies set out for all students. That would not be hypocritical, and it would maintain their integrity.
But the elitists aren’t prepared to countenance that either. They don’t even have the confidence in the hashpo’oh of their own mosdos to affect positive change. They just a) don’t want to give up the power this policy gives them, and b) don’t want to associate with the riff raff.
the mosod could be able to say – We will accept any Jewish child who from the point of his or her acceptance forward, their parents agree to abide by all the stringencies set out for all students.
Would you say that if parents would not be willing to accept these stringencies, it would be morally reprehensible for the school to accept a donation from them?
No it would not be reprehensible to accept in that case. If the option to conform and be accepted is given, I have no argument against it.
We were discussing, though, the case of elitists and mosdos who reject kids a priori, who don’t even give people who WANT to be within their gedorim an opportunity to do so.
Would you say that if parents would not be willing to accept these stringencies, it would be morally reprehensible for the school to accept a donation from them?
If I can answer for myself, I dont think its morally rephrehensible for those schools to accept an unsolicited donation from such a person, however I think its wrong to solicit donations from such a person.
I think it would be morally reprehensible to solicit someone who you turned down. To accept a donation on the other hand, I personally see no issues with it. The donor is offering the money (perhaps naively thinking it will get them another shot at acceptance – as long as the school doesnt lead them along this path then) I see nothing wrong with accepting it.
A number of years ago when our first child was entering elementary school, we dutifully filled out an application for a particular school and they simply ignored the application (yes, we called and confirmed it was received and was being reviewed) and obviously had no interest in us as parents in the school or our child as their student. That’s fine, and in our opinion, their loss. However, when they called several months later following up on the invitation they sent to their annual dinner, we politely asked them to remove us from their mailing list. They did.
Yichusdik, earlier you seemed to say that it would be hypocritical. You wrote:
No, DY. If the individual donor is too treif to daven at your omud, or his kids are not holy enough to be in your school, or his wife isnt tzniyus enough to pick up her kids at your door, then it is hypocritical and self defeating to accept money that is by those heilige standards, tamei.
See, I am not disagreeing with you about the abhorrence of the elitist attitude some have, or about the fact that the schools should stand their ground against it. You tacked on, though, a diatribe against the hypocrisy of accepting donations from people they wouldn’t accept, and that’s really not the issue.
ZD, apushatayid, I think that’s all beside the point, and anyhow, I disagree. I know the Satmar cheder would never accept my son yet I have no problem if they were to solicit a donation from me.
It would be my choice to give it not, but there would be nothing wrong with them asking.
If you solicit from someone you would not accept, the message is, your money is good enough, but you arent.
apushatayid -“These mosdos are private businesses, as such they can be run as the management sees fit and they are beholden to noone except their clientele. Once they start asking other people for money, they open themselves up to those peoples input as well whether they like it, or not”
You didn’t understand my point! If they are coming running to him to save a school in Lakewood, not only should he ask for his way of doing things, but he should demand his way!
This has nothing to do with acceptance of an individual child.
If his way demands acceptance of a certain child, then so be it.
DY, I should clarify further, as my thinking on this has evolved a bit. On one hand, I think zahavasdad is right. Its one thing to accept, another to solicit. So if I had to write that again I’d write “ask for” instead of “accept”. On the other, As I wrote above, if they set standards going forward, and do not discriminate a priori, I can like it or not but cant call it reprehensible. Thank you for forcing me to clarify my thoughts.
TO UBIQUITIN I DONT THINK EVEN ONE KID SHOULD BE LEFT OUT COMPLETELY OF SCHOOL but the fact that some kids out of the 100+ born a week in lakewood dont get in to a school is not a reason for rechnitz to talk like that about “lakewood”.
why didnt he talk about people who have terrible shalom bayis …or other big problems that are equally comman
Why would he speak about Shalom bayis or another social problem at a dinner that was all about chinuch in Lakewood?
because he set up the dinner to talk about it
i was saying that since if you count the numbers its really not that much that are not getting into school because of whatever he said and its just as important to talk about other stuff why did he make it sound like the whole world is taluy in this
DY – Both Rabbi Perr of Yeshiva Derech Ayson in Far Rockaway and Rabbi Mandel of YOB have declined to accept (seven figure) donations from those who they believe their money isn’t Tahor.
In the case of Rabbi Mandel, there was a famous singer (Barbara Streisand) who once went there and wanted to donate. In the other, P. Diddy (the rapper) was defended successfully by the Menahel’s Brother, Ben Brafman.
There are those who will accept money from anyone. There are those who believe that Torah launders money from its source.
Others believe that the source of the money affects the learning.
THAT all being said, I agree with you that Yichusdik is wrong in this instance. The institutions in Lakewood don’t believe that Rechnitz (and others like him) are wrong, doing something assur, etc. Rather, as others have pointed out, they discriminate simply for a need to be seen as elite, so they get the best applicants and are viewed as the “top” schools. V’Harayah, if they were in an out of town community, they would be thrilled to accept any of the children they currently reject.
L’shitascha, where would you draw the line? Would you accept a donation from an OO person? Mark Zuckerberg? Yair Lapid? JTS? Campus Pride? The Pope? At what point do you say “enough”?
I never said or meant that all money is “tahor”. I don’t know where precisely to draw the line, but nowhere near where yichusdik wanted to. I doubt Rav Perr or Rav Mandel turn/turned down money simply because it was from mechallelei Shabbos, and I assume that nobody choshuv would knowingly accept money earned dishonestly. The issue was, as I understand it, the values those entertainers represent, and particularly because of their fame.
they feel that they dont want their kids being in class with any kid just because his great great great great great grandfather was by har sinai
If you feel that ancestry going back to har sinai is not good enough reason to accept a child into a school, then perhaps you should reevaluate what exactly makes someone jewish.
So maybe next month a dinner in honor of Lakewood families and then he can raise those problems.
Yeru613 -“its just as important to talk about other stuff why did he make it sound like the whole world is taluy in this”
Make sense please! You talk about school issues at a school dinner. Why would he talk about social issues?!?
to gamanit being at har sinai certainly makes you jewish but that has nothing to do with putting two kids in the same class even lhavdil by the goyim they separate collages for smarter people …kol shekain for yidishe neshamois who b”h some know very little about the “wonders of technology” and other outside influences all of the sudden are hanging out with friends who this coming sunday are gonna be watching the super with their family and friends …and it is well known and tested and proven the power of hashpas caused by bad friends.
and to health you missed my first comment he set up this dinner as if it was the only most wide spread pikuach nefesh ever …and if the percentage is basicly what a community of a unprecedented growth rate (unlike la where everyone gets in because theres probably less kids birn there a year than a week in lakewood) should look like than why doesnt he rally and “set up” other events and dinners and speak for a hour anout those other very important stuff
Yeru613 -“and to health you missed my first comment he set up this dinner as if it was the only most wide spread pikuach nefesh ever”
What makes you think he set up this dinner? I think he just gave a donation!
health i heard from someone who heard from a rebbi in the yeshiva and i spoke to someone who is personally involved in the schools
The damage you do to the potential “bad friends” is far worse than what they might do to the other kids. They start believing themselves to be bad people, so they stop trying. They become depressed and start acting out. And they think bad behavior is appropriate for them because they are bad.
rebyidd23 thats the parents of the child fault
How?
yeru613 – Being mechanech your kids is a personal mitzva that you have.
You are saying that for you to personally fulfill this mitzva you feel you need to keep your kids safe from other children that are exposed to secular media.
You are willing to sacrifice these “bad kids” to shelter your kids.
How do YOU know that this is Torah hashgafah?
rebyidd23 how? by living in lakewood which according to everybody is “supposed to be yeshivish” and people who live here and do things and wear clothing or anything that would make you look diffrent than most of the town or at least the part that runs the schooling system …those people ..the parents should think before becoming “open minded” that they live in lakewood and they should try to conform that way theyre kids will get into school.
to bored on the job first of all look in the rambam hilchos dais what he talks about hashpaas and look in other mussar seforim also we are not sacrificing them they are sacrificing themselves
Yeru613 -“we are not sacrificing them they are sacrificing themselves”
I don’t agree! They think that they can be Frum with all those things that they do. You don’t. By Not letting them into a local Jewish school, you most likely are sacrificing their Neshama.
Do these kids not have any yeshiva to get into, or is it that they can’t get into the ones the parents want?
DY – Both.
I don’t think any child has gone a school year without any school (because they couldn’t get into any school at all.)
Why do you think so?
Joseph, it’s very painful to go through even part of a year without a school, and even to not have one before school starts, when most other kids do.
I think that with *perhaps* at most an extremely tiny number of exceptions, no child in Lakewood started the school year having applied and been rejected by every school. IOW, by the time the schools open their first day of the year, every child had *a* school willing to accept them.
You think but you don’t know perhaps that is what you would like to believe.
It seems like there are a lot of people expressing opinions here without really knowing what’s going on.
Joseph, in his speech, Mr Rechnitz stated that he gets many calls from parents whose children have not been accepted. Is your statement to the contrary based upon fact or what you hope actually is?
Yeru613 – “we are not sacrificing them they are sacrificing themselves”
This logic presupposes that it is right to make selective standards based on the current criteria being used, that exclude certain clientele. Then one can suggest they are sacrificing themselves by “choosing” to be outside those standards.
However there is a judgement call that needs to be made. Keeping kids sheltered is an important value, not causing kids pain is an important value.
Everyone would agree that if a child had murderous psychotic episodes you can shelter your kids from him regardless of the pain it would cause that child.
If a child curses and speaks divrei nevalah there is a strong argument (not necessarily conclusive) to shelter your kids at that kids expense.
If he has a tv and internet perhaps there is an argument that the mitzvah of chinuch habonim requires you to exclude this child from your childs school. (not sure)
Because his father chooses to work….
Therefore that kid and his family are “sacrificing themselves” and subjecting themselves to suffering.
I would have trouble understanding that when weighing chinuch habonim against inflicting pain that that would dictate creating a standard that excludes a child because his father is no longer learning
Yeru613
“TO UBIQUITIN I DONT THINK EVEN ONE KID SHOULD BE LEFT OUT COMPLETELY OF SCHOOL”
Great so you agree that it is bad when it happens.
” but the fact that some kids out of the 100+ born a week in lakewood dont get in to a school”
And you agree that it does happen.
” is not a reason for rechnitz to talk like that about “lakewood”.”
This part I dont follow. IF something bad is happening, and he might be in a position to have an influence, how can he NOT speak up?
“why didnt he talk about people who have terrible shalom bayis …or other big problems that are equally comman”
a. There wasnt enough time.
b. Kids being murdered is much more important
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