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The problem is population growth and as a result there are too many children trying to get into the same grade. Imagine an island that only has 3 classrooms but 100 children. 10 of those children are going to die from exposure or sunburn.
The solution is to send your kids to school 2-3 years younger than is currently thought of as normal. Send to kindergarten at age 2 instead of 5 and then there will be enough classrooms for all. Also, SYR is sponsoring cars to take your little tykes to school so you don’t have to bear that expense and carpool hassle too early in your young life.
At least 71 roshei yeshiva have given me their bracha.
Anybody knows how i can reach him? An email address or something? Thanks!
This is all a sad commentary on Lakewood. The root of the problem, however, is that Lakewood has turned into something that was not envisioned by its founders: To be an exclusive, yeshivish community. Over the decades it has attracted frum people of all stripes, apparently to the dismay of those who want to maintain the original vision of BMG. I think there is a certain population that resents those who are not yeshivish because they dilute the community that drew them to Lakewood in the first place and it filters down to the children, who feel those non-yeshivish would have a negative impact on the yeshivish crowd. This dynamic may be unique to Lakewood because of its original intention. And it’s sad because indeed it sounds like an elitist attitude by the yeshivish community there, and the kids are the karbanos.
His clarification is what I thought he said. If someone tries to browbeat you to do or not to do something and threatens you with $$$, dont worry, come to me instead.
Frumnotyeshivish -“There was a problem with the speech — it was too mild-“
I’ve been arguing with you for many years. This is the first time I agree with you!
What I want to know- who threatened him? Because I don’t see why he had to apologize!
I guess he got too much flak coming from the Coffee Room..
i posted something a few minutes ago that got taken down i said that we all had a kid growing up in school (or at least i did) that was “the kid in the class with the tv in his house or watched movies” or whatever it was and our parents tried to make sure we dont hang out with them and i would like to speak in defense of those that call up moisdos and say that if you take in that kid i will not send my kid their not saying if you take in that kid i will close down your school their saying “we will leave the school because we dont want our precious neshamois who we worked so hard and spent so many hours on the phone to avoid using the internet to pay credit cards bills etc.” they feel that they dont want their kids being in class with any kid just because his great great great great great grandfather was by har sinai
yeru613 shame on you wha r you blaming the children
sterchele just making myself clear i am blaming the people who have open internet in their houses and on their phones ….your right not every one whos not in school has open internet etc. i was just trying to be dan lekaf zchus some of the people who dont want their kids with those kids
Yeru613 -“sterchele just making myself clear i am blaming the people who have open internet in their houses and on their phones”
I’m not going to argue right or wrong about the net. Btw, you’re on the net, are your kids in school?!?
“i was just trying to be dan lekaf zchus some of the people who dont want their kids with those kids”
I’d like to ask you a question – you seem like a learned person. Who is the Mazik & who is the Nizuk? Btw, we Paskin like the Rabbonim – Al Hamazik Leharchiv Es Atzmo.
health to your first question i said “open internet” … besides i was just speaking in their defense.
to your second thats exactly it …so instead of the people who believe their kids chinuch and future is at risk if those other kids come into the school just leaving the school they just say that “if you take in that kid i will take out mine”.
by the way i dont have any kids going to school at this time but i would certainly try to protect my kids chinuch, no, i do not agree with mr. rechnitz that there should be a open door policy for any kid of any type should be able to get into any schoool.
To yeru613
I see your point. So, maybe Lakewood suppose to be the town for avrechim only? Otherwise kids from different walks may interact with each other on a street/in the store. Lets make everyone who not learn full time leave Lakewood and take their kids along. People, who learn full time do not have (not suppose to have?) Internet. Make Lakewood free from Internet users. All stores and services in Lakewood can be successfully run by not Jews. Their kids go to public school. I’m not sarcastic. Just asking.
Flatbusher
actually lakewood has become A MORE FRUMMER TOWN in the past 30 years. over the last 3 decades & mostly the last decade of the 3, every year the modern people of the town have been leaving-either the elder were Niftar or the Modern Orthdox families children have all Married off their children & their children are not staying in Lakewood to raise a modern Family. The lakewood day school-which was co-ed & the first jewish school in Lakewood & Rabbi Aryeh Malkiel Kotler went there-shut down already about 10 years ago.
Yidden in lakewood today are 99.5% percent torah frum families, there is
maybe a drop of modern familes still living in lakewood. all the reform or conservative shuls in Lakewood have shut down or joined another shul in a different town near lakewood
BOTTOM LINE:Lakewood is more frum today then it used to be. Not vice versa. even if tons of NYers have moved to lakewood but their all frum or even Chasidish families. (soon the town might become chasidish) i remember before there were any chasidish shuls in Lakewood today there are over 30 that are chasidish of all diferent kinds.
regardless if he had the right to say what he did and regardless of all the arguments against his speech, what he said is 100% accurate, unfortunately jews all over, not just in lakewood have taken on an elitist attitude, talking down on those that are not like them, that have different minhagim and chumros, considering themselves to be beter jews, The beis hamikdash was destroyed because of sinas chinam and we are no better today, WE ARE ALL EQUAL, NO ONES BETTER THAN THE NEXT, WE WERE PUT HERE TO SERVE HASHEM EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN UNIQUE WAY TO DO SO AND WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE THEM ON IT. NO ONES WRONG, EVERYONE IS RIGHT…… PEOPLE WAKE UP AND SEE THE CHURBON YOUR CAUSING, ENOUGH OF THE HATE LETS BAND TOGETHER TO BRING THE GEULA!!!!!
yeru613 – and when they come for you because you have internet in your house, even filtered & monitored Yeshivanet?
Benav- The real (and best) solution is the BMG should pick up and move. Lakewood is no longer the town that Rav Aharon wanted his yeshiva to be in.
to cv yes the town was meant and will forever be run around bmg the traffic the hours of stores etc. and kal vchomer when it comes to yeshivas and schools.
like someone told me – in places outside lakewood where the problem is just as big if not biger because lakewood is THE ONLY PLACE that has a vaad setup to take care of these kids – the yeshivish send to one school (basicly) and the less yeshivish to another… as opposed to lakewood where everybody hangs out and davens and shops in the same few places … so they assume that because the area code on their house phone 732 they should get into school with kids who’s mother and father are moiser nefesh in 2016 to bring their kids up in the most sheltered way they could imagine (obviously there is no fool proof way but…)
and to flatbush agent … lakewood as frum as it is or as you claim it became …the styles and rat race for any kind gashmius has manifested and grown into the most yeshivish of families whether it be a 500+ dollar carriage or cars that for some reason “have to be decent” ending up newer cars then any yeshiva man ten years ago would never have dreamed of.
talk about frum i cant because there is way too mush l”h.
to stop the hate you sound like you live on the hilltops in israel where “love for everyone” is their motto and what your saying sounds like a fairy tale but lmaase look in the rambam hilchos dais about the dangers of getting mushpa from people with bad influences.
Here’s a good test for the heilige mosdos and the elitists they defer to. Let the board of each school commit to only taking funds and resources from individuals who would meet their standard for admissions for their children. That way, the only pressure would be internal, and schools would reach an equilibrium based on their admissions policies and practices. Some would admit a broader spectrum of kids, and would be able to access broader resources. Some less, and if their policy is financially unsustainable, they will be able to draw the appropriate conclusions about their policy. There would be great honesty in such a committment.
Yichusdik, why is that a good test? Why can’t a mossad accept a donation from someone who wouldn’t meet their standards for acceptance?
Can a school turn down the child of a family which won’t keep their television/internet/tznius/shmiras Shabbos/kashrus standards? Can they nevertheless accept a donation from someone who doesn’t keep those standards?
Yeru613 -“to your second thats exactly it …so instead of the people who believe their kids chinuch and future is at risk if those other kids come into the school just leaving the school they just say that “if you take in that kid i will take out mine”.
You didn’t even B’chlal begin to see my point! Are you learning in BMG?
If what Mr. Rechnitz is saying is true, BTW, I have personal experience in this & I don’t agree with him where the problem lies, let them take their kids out!
What don’t you understand about my previous post? It’s also a Geder of Bori V’shma – Bori Odif.
No, DY. If the individual donor is too treif to daven at your omud, or his kids are not holy enough to be in your school, or his wife isnt tzniyus enough to pick up her kids at your door, then it is hypocritical and self defeating to accept money that is by those heilige standards, tamei. Why don’t these elitists have the courage of their convictions and survive without the support of those who don’t meet their standards?
DY you wrote “Can a school turn down the child of a family which won’t keep their television/internet/tznius/shmiras Shabbos/kashrus standards? Can they nevertheless accept a donation from someone who doesn’t keep those standards?”
As a private institution it CAN turn down the child. It CAN set the standards it feels necessary. Neither JUSTIFIES it taking not-frum-enough money from those it deems below its standards of holiness.
“….who’s mother and father are moiser nefesh in 2016 to bring their kids up in the most sheltered way they could imagine “
Sounds like they also want to be moiser the nefesh of the kids they don’t want accepted into the schools.
yeru613, I think a major point of contention is that you are assuming its justified to reject a child and afflict suffering on him and his family to protect your children from another child who is less sheltered.
Alot of ppl flat out think that position is wrong.
That is assuming that the parents are sincerely concerned about the ruchnius of their children.
A more cynical person would question whether the parents are sincere or they just feel its pos nisht for their kids to be in school with a certain type of kid.
bored on the job first of all i dont think that called moiser the nefesh if you dont accept a kid who based on the administration he or she might ruin other kids “more than one”.
second i happen to believe that the parents really do care about their childrens ruchnius even if they are not completely leshim shamayim in the long run their hashkafa doesnt agree with having kids in their class who regularly watch tv shows etc.
If Rabbi Rechnitz got his kids into a school where every other kid was a child of a person in klei kodesh, how do you think they would feel about themselves after 12 years of school? They wouldn’t feel good about their family or proud of their father as a person. Sure, they’d feel good and take advantage of their position due to his money, but their values wouldn’t be “look up to man who supports community of Torah” but rather “look up to people who work full time/are in chinuch/ in klei kodesh”.
‘In town’, kids tend to be more influenced by the community, as they’re not getting the regular “we do this, they do that” message that OOT’ers naturally send their kids. So it’s more important to send your kid to a school where their peers are on the page you want them to be. OOT there’s one school and everyone goes and the kids turn out fine and tend to have values similar to their parents’.
Not only that, ‘in town’ parents are motivated to send their kid to the “best” school they can get into, hoping their kids will be influenced by the peer pressure and turn into better kids. This doesn’t actually work in practice, as sending your kid to a school where they don’t belong nearly always backfires, but it doesn’t stop people from trying to do what they think is best for their child.
My point is, it’s not all elitism. Some of it is just the natural result of the existence of a spectrum of schools and parents who want x and y for their kids. And that spectrum exists anywhere there is a large enough community to support it.
I don’t know anyone who couldn’t get into any in town school. I know many people who had to push to get into the school of their choice, and others who refused to go to the schools that would accept their kids as a matter of pride. Or who wouldn’t admit that their kid just didn’t fit in the mold of a particular school that all their other kids went to.
There is definitely a problem, but I think it’s more like 5% elitism and 95% situational, rather than vice versa.
If there is also a space problem in Lakewood, that compounds it, but I’ve never heard of anyone who put in the requisite effort and made all the calls and couldn’t get their kid in anywhere.
Squeak:the two most sandy ectoplasmic beings on Earth (not to mention the Man on the Moon).
The problem is population growth and as a result there are too many children trying to get into the same grade. Imagine an island that only has 3 classrooms but 100 children. 10 of those children are going to die from exposure or sunburn.
The solution is to send your kids to school 2-3 years younger than is currently thought of as normal. Send to kindergarten at age 2 instead of 5 and then there will be enough classrooms for all. Also, SYR is sponsoring cars to take your little tykes to school so you don’t have to bear that expense and carpool hassle too early in your young life.
At least 71 roshei yeshiva have given me their bracha.
Can’t believe I missed this. Repeating in case others did.
Another note is, I do believe that people who give money to Lakewood feel frustrated because Lakewood is founded on valuing only learning, so people who work feel looked down upon.
it is a totally separate issue from the schools issue, and I’m surprised Rabbi Rechnitz conflated them.
What makes anyone think Rechnitz is any more an expert on any of these issues than the average Jew on the street?
Torah613torah -“I don’t know anyone who couldn’t get into any in town school”
That’s because the Maschiach instituted that no schools can open if kids don’t have any school! But you’re turning it around – that it was planned this way. The few schools & parents that think they just can turn down anyone they feel like, are playing with fire!
“That’s because the Maschiach instituted that no schools can open if kids don’t have any school!”
I assume you mean the Mashgiach Shlita (not Mashiach). Why is it when the Mashgiach expresses his concern about this year after year, nobody talks about it. When Mr. Rechnitz mentions it, it is suddenly the talk of the town, his words dissected, interpreted, reinterpreted, he issues an apology and clarification and it gets further dissected and discussed. If we would just listen to our Rabbonim…..
Why doesn’t Lakewood have enough schools for everyone, so that no child will be left out?
It is not a matter of “holier than thou”. A child exposed to internet, etc. is simply a different child with different language and different ideas. His parents have ruined him. If they live in Lakewood and want him to be accepted why don’t they think of this earlier?
Also, if Torah613Torah is correct, he says that he doesn’t know of anyone who couldn’t get onto the school of his choice, what is everyone carrying on about?
It seems to me that the solution is more schools. We had the same problem here in Jerusalem. If a girl couldn’t get into the sem of her choice, she would sit home for months until she would give in and agree to a different seminary.
If a school has room for 200 and has 300 applications, what are they supposed to do? Now we have many sems here and from what I understand from my grandchildren, all the girls get in, though not always to their first choice.
Also, how can any one believe such loshen horah against an ENTIRE frum comunity? There must be hundreds of exceptions.
agutyar: I absolutely did NOT say that. You are grossly misquoting me. As I specifically stated, I know many people who didn’t get into the school of their choice.
I don’t know anyone who put in a normal amount of hishtadlus (calling people including their community/shul Rav, applying to multiple schools, letting people know about the situation) who couldn’t get into ANY school.
others who refused to go to the schools that would accept their kids as a matter of pride.
I would say that’s also a form of elitism; wouldn’t you?
There is a cynical side of me that says these mosdos are all privately owned. Nobody tells Mr rechnitz how to run his business and he shouldn’t tell others how to run theirs. Unless of course they ask for a capital investment (donation) them he has a right to make suggestions.
The community yeshiva doesn’t exist and these private yeshivas have no achrayus to anyone except their tuition paying parents and those who they solicit for money.
But, I’m trying not to be cynical.
Don’t worry about elitism.
Elitism is fine.
As long as everybody realizes that my children are The Elite.
Maybe George Orwell, (perhaps) a more proficient writer than me, put it better-
“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
And George Orwell never even visited Lakewood.
I happen to agree with Mr Rechnitz that Lakewood is a great place. Though I’m sure he knows much more about it than I do. Problems arise when human nature, there as anywhere else, raises its (sometimes ugly) head. And we have to work together to rise above it.
to yeru613
“. so they assume that because the area code on their house phone 732 they should get into school with kids who’s mother and father are moiser nefesh in 2016 to bring their kids up in the most sheltered way they could imagine (obviously there is no fool proof way but…)”
So, from your post I can see two ways to resolve the problem.
1. Every family outside of Lakewood, which is not up to Lakewood lifestyle standard, should stop giving donation to yeshivos and kollelem in Lakewood. Instead they should give these money for a new school in Lakewood, which will accept every Jewish child, who does not fit to existed schools. This way all Jewish kids will have Jewish education, every Jew will support his own lifestyle and different “circles” of Jews will not mingle.
2. Find a new place for BMG with stipulation, that Jews, who not belong to yeshiva have no rights to settle next to yeshiva. Apartment buildings should be belong to BMG and available for avrechim/rabbeim only. Do not allow to build luxury houses around yeshiva, avrechim can’t afford them. People, who can afford (most of them) – have not BMG lifestyle. Whoever is good enough to provide service for BMG, can travel to work from any other town/city.
It is not an option to send Jewish child to public school.
An observation (which could be totally off base- I’ve only been to Lakewood once and basically everything I know about it is from people who live there):
I think that this situation and the shidduch crisis can be compared in one aspect, which actually comes from Lakewood- everyone’s looking for the same thing.
Lakewood has been growing more and more diverse over time. But it’s still seen both in its eyes and the public eye as an Ir HaTorah, with a social system based on that, even as people move in from other places, change personally, etc.
Somewhere like Brooklyn, or Monsey (where I live), when parents are looking for a school, they look for one that matches their child, one that matches their hashkafa on an individual level. In fact, for many it’s the other way around- schools will accept them, but parents will choose other schools if they don’t feel that it’s the right fit. I would not have been happy in many of the stricter BYs where I live, and I therefore didn’t apply to them and didn’t go to them and felt no stigma because of it.
In Lakewood, everyone’s expected to be a similar type. There is much much much less of a spectrum, and what spectrum there is isn’t so much on hashkafa or values but on prestige, for whatever reason. Every school is expected to have basically similar values. The families too are meant to have similar values, whether they do or they don’t, and either way it’s a bad situation- if they do fit in the mold, then there has to be some kind of groping for a TINY difference to set people apart, because you really CAN’T fit every kid in the same school, and if they don’t, then they have to make it into the “right” schools so that people think that they do. Because it is a community ideally based on a certain ideology, there is precious little room for variance. And, therefore, there is much more at stake when it comes to getting into “the right” school because there is some kind of an ideal which must be worked up to, while in other communities, the ideal is more what works for you. (No, it’s not that simple entirely, there’s peer pressure everywhere, but not like THIS.)
Of course, the same thing happens in the shidduch system, as every girl runs herself ragged looking for the same kind of guy, as every guy fits into the same mold and spends nights looking through practically identical looking resumes of girls who also are squeezing themselves into that box, and the distinctions are like a chut hase’arah.
Does no one seriously care about the hypocrisy of the elite mosdos who will accept $$$ but not kids from those who don’t meet their “standards”? Clearly, there is little concern about the message this sends to people who are good, frum, God fearing Yidden, who maybe have a New York Times chas vecholilo in the house? Or who are maybe geirim, or baalei tshuva whose kids don’t get in because, well, pas’t nisht? And most importantly, what does it say to the kids themselves, that unseen and unknown people within a community they want to be part of reject them? DO you think a 14 year old girl who learns torah, dresses in a tzniyusdike way, doesn’t talk to boys, doesn’t go to movies is going to understand the calculated elitism involved? Explain to them (clearly, no one of the apologists here has been able to explain it to me) why they are treif but money from someone who isn’t even at their standard of frumkeit is kosher? ITS HYPOCRITICAL. It is evidence of a growing moral bankruptcy. And it is unsustainable.
Masiachagent: Your comments conflict with what I have been hearing from several people who live down there. To say 99.5% of the community is Torah frum is probably a stretch, and even if it isn’t I am not arguing that it is not Torah frum, just not yeshivish. I have heard people who live there lament not of modern orthodox but just baala batish, giving it the feeling of feeling when you go shopping. And I can see for myself when I’ve been there that it is far from the total yeshivish community you want to portray.
It is not an option to send Jewish child to public school.
Has that actually happened in Lakewood? Or is it just that some kids haven’t gotten accepted into the “elite” yeshivos?
Neither JUSTIFIES it taking not-frum-enough money from those it deems below its standards of holiness.
Why does accepting a donation require justification? Why do the standards for donors need to be the same asxfor students? Is it hypocrisy if I will buy potato chips in a store in which I wouldn’t buy meat?
Not all activities require the same standards, and that is not hypocrisy.
And that, DY, is my point. You can’t even see the moral abscess of taking money for institutions that is tamei, by the standards of the same institution. These heilige mosdos aren’t the bais hamikdosh, and the donor isnt bringing a korban looking for HKBH’s forgiveness. And even if you were to make the comparison, He isn’t taking it upon himself to change his ways upon giving the gift. His continuing in his lifestyle (one not holy enough for the institution) even after making the gift could be compared to pigul, and the readiness of the hypocritical institution to take his gift makes for a compelling comparison to a cohen who has forsaken his role.
Lets also be clear about what’s at stake. You are making the argument because we both know that the “system” is unsustainable without the tamei (by the standards of the heilige elitists) money of the less frum, the andere. So any appeal for integrity and courage of conviction is a non starter. which is a horrible commentary on either the religiousness of Jews who can make substantial donations, or the integrity of the institutions that make a point of exclusion.
Your potato chips straw man is irrelevant, and you know it. We’re not talking about an individual’s choice of refreshments, we’re talking about the representative institutions of our society which will shape the lives of our children. Of course they have to have the highest standard of integrity, and no vestige of hypocrisy. If they don’t need that, I fear for the generation they are educating.
does anyone else think that he was pressured into writing that apology?
he seems to be saying the exact opposite of his speech.
DaasYochid: well said. Yasher Koach.
who ever it was that started this idea that you cant take money from someone who wouldnt be accepted into the school (i think its mr rechnitz)- its nonsense.
i want to bring up another point the reason why in la every kid gets into school is because there is not so many kids there and this, that only lakewood has such a extreme problem…”lakewood is the only place where there is a vaad setup to take care of these kids”.
Also, i am curious what percentage of kids that dont get accepted, really dont belong in the school? (i.e. a 5th grader who has his own ipad etc., i guess rechnitz thinks that everyone should get in so…) and what percentage just “fell” through the cracks without any pull or whatever it is that rechnitz said you “need” in order to be part of lakewood?
Apushityid -“Nobody tells Mr rechnitz how to run his business and he shouldn’t tell others how to run theirs. Unless of course they ask for a capital investment (donation) them he has a right to make suggestions.”
Stop with your fairy tales! They came running to him because a school was closing down at the beginning of the year.
“The community yeshiva doesn’t exist and these private yeshivas have no achrayus to anyone except their tuition paying parents and those who they solicit for money.”
No, the parents can’t totally support the Yeshiva. He was too nice. He should have threatened to withhold all his money to these elite Yeshivas. Some people want their cake and eat it too!
Yichusdik, you had a pretty long post there, but didn’t answer my question.
“does anyone else think that he was pressured into writing that apology?
he seems to be saying the exact opposite of his speech”
I also got this impression
You are right Golfer, Orwell never visited Lakewood but I can assure you big brother is always watching there.
Well said yichusdik.
Health. When they came running they asked for his money. With that he has the right to say whatever he wants because he now has skin in the game.
Regarding your second statement. I’m not sure what it has to do with anything I wrote. I wrote from the perspective of the yeshiva achrayus and you, well I have no idea what you are saying.
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