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Which is why so many others are marginalized. People like Popa have no choice but to go insane.
How about some examples?
Yeshivas should aim for a 85 IQ.
Alternatively, there should be separate yeshivas for different IQ levels.
Maybe popa should leave 10th grade.
The separate yeshiva idea wouldn’t work. It’s bad enough in yeshivas where kids feel stigmatized if they are placed in a “B” or lower class. I don’t know if I agree with the premise that yeshivas are aiming at IQs of 110. I don’t think their staff of rebbeim and teachers are all so bright and intelligent to be able to do that. But let’s face it, learning is not easy even for a person of above average intelligence.
Tracking is done in many mesivtas, and it does stigmatize the weaker students.
Different mesivtas do cater to talmidim of different levels, and that does not cause such a stigma, because it’s much less obvious.
That may be true, but parents seem to know the truth of their child’s placement. I have a close friend who has been a principal of different yeshivas, and they all face the same issue with parents who don’t want their kids in anything other than what is regarded as the top class.
VM: Why do you assume that IQ is very relevant in determining who will influence the world significantly?
I think VM is talking about hashkafa. I pretty much agree with him.
My yeshiva once brought in some kiruv wackos to convince us with their brilliant proofs. They were dumb. The presenters were dumb, and so their arguments were dumb. I can make much better arguments, but I spent 2 days making fun of them instead, because they were dumb.
VM: To be honest, I have no idea what you mean. Not trying to argue; I legitimately don’t understand.
What do you mean by 110 IQ tenth graders?
I agree. I don’t believe a person needs to be brilliant to influence the world. Over the years I’ve come to understand that the presumption that Jews in general are brilliant is just not so. Jews may represent a disproportionately high percentage of Nobel prize winners but there are a lot of average folks like me
VM: “The results of Terman’s longitudinal study of gifted children suggest that IQ can play an important role in determining life success; but high IQ alone is not enough. Variables such as family background, socioeconomic status, and educational experiences as well as personality factors including motivation, willingness to work hard, being committed to goals, creativity, and emotional maturity are also strongly linked to success in life.”
So perhaps we should separate students by economic status as well?
Popa- Just curious, what was one or two of their arguments that you found unconvincing, and how would you improve on them?
I suggested separating high potential students in order to cultivate them to their highest achievement.
The average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is 115.
How did Ashkenazi Jews get so smart?
VM: But then the malach flicked his finger under his nose causing him to forget everything.
Oh, I remember my kiruv krovim speeches in HS… I left five minutes in as I found some of what the speaker was saying and particularly how he was saying it breathtakingly offensive to the people to whom he was speaking. I told my principals I was never going back to one of those speeches. When I told them why, not one of them could argue with me. It didn’t stop them from hiring the speaker back, though.
I honestly don’t think I missed anything, even if I had liked the speaker. I find it difficult to be like R Meir and Acher and eat the fruit and throw away the peel, but somehow I don’t think it would have helped/have been necessary in this case.
Who tested all these people? Where do these numbers come from?
It actually goes against Chazal who say “Chochmah bagoyim taamin”. There are smart goyim! Just because one has to be smart to understand the torah properly does not mean every jew is smart nor does it mean the average jew is smart. It just means that the gedolim who understand and interpret the torah correctly are smart.
Writersoul: You find it hard to be like R’ Meir or Acher? What do you find hard to eat the fruit or throw away the peel, or you mean to separate them? And then comes the next question, do you find it harder to peel an orange or apple or both?
definitely both, ever tried peeling 2 fruit at once?
Joseph: the second time you hear something that you’ve forgotten it “still rings a bell”. So we might have an easier learning curve…
Truthfully though I believe it’s more of a cultural thing, where learning for the sake of learning is appreciated and encouraged. We start learning early and and never stop. Even in the secular Jewish world the concept of education is extolled more than in many other cultures.
The funny thing is that IQ is supposed to measure intelligence and not knowledge, but it’s hard to separate the two when testing, and learning teaches one to think critically.
Asian society extolls learning perhaps even more than jewish cuture
Asian society looks to Jewish society to learn how to learn and be smart.
skripka: Where do you see the words ‘at once’?
We used to be much smarter (as a people). Now we seem to blindly follow whomever has the most chumros (not everyone). The independent thought that provided the basis for the gemara is now discouraged. Even in learning most sefarim written nowadays seem to be focused on reconciling old ideas instead of having new ones. Of course one’s thought must be within the confines of halacha but why can’t people be a little more independent like our parents were growing up?
Joseph:
I suggested separating high potential students
in order to cultivate them to their highest achievement.
Lakewood is about to do that, it seems, with The Mechinah.
So perhaps we should separate students by economic status as well?
Practically speaking, that’s often the case, regardless of policy.
How about allowing the students to choose for themselves?
Lakewood is about to do that, it seems, with The Mechinah.
What’s “The Mechinah”?
Practically speaking, that’s often the case, regardless of policy.
Where are there yeshivas that exclusively cater wealthy families and other yeshivas that exclusively cater poor families?
I thought it was an upper-elementary-grades school
for exceptional boys. I was wrong. Forget it.
I was talking about the general public.
I was talking about the general public.
In what sense?
Separation of students by economic status (in a broader sense).
This is why Oscar the Grouch ran away from cheder.
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