RCA sides with apikorsim

They’re kind of in a bad position. They should have kicked him out a long time ago, but since they didn’t, they don’t think it reflects well on them to have one of their members’ recommendations rejected.

It seems from the rest of the statement that they want all future geirus testimonies go through them, so that they can reject any that are suspect, and save themselves the embarrassment of having the Rabbanut reject it.

There is likely some politics involved, The Rabbanut in Israel have not been totally honest about gerut done in the US and wont even say which non-charedi rabbis they will accept Gerut from .

There is a reason that the Dati-Leumi are moving closer to the Chilonim as opposed to the charedim which should be their natural allied.

How many Weiss Gerim really are there?

And I doubt many of them are moving to Lakewood ,Borough Park , Or Bnei Brak either.

I read the RCA’s statement. Maybe I’m missing something, but I didn’t see in the RCA’s statement that they side with Weiss. It said, “Recent assertions that the Rabbinical Council of America advised the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to reject the testimony of RCA member Rabbi Avi Weiss are categorically untrue.” That doesn’t mean they support Weiss, it means they didn’t tell the Rabbinate to reject him.

The RCA has made it clear time and time again that they oppose Weiss. They do not accept the “semichah” he offers as legitimate. They themselves do not accept his geirus. They have issued statements against many of his policies. In this case, they just wanted to set the record straight, that they did not tell the Rabbinate to reject him. That is very different from supporting him.

In the statement, they continued by saying that they think it’s wrong to make the geirus into much more than it should be, and that it shouldn’t be used to bring up issues about the definition of Orthodox in the US. I agree with this 100%. Deal with the issue at hand. Don’t drag other things into it.

@zahavasdad +1 “like”

DaMoshe, if they reject Weiss’ geirus, they should have inserted into their statement, “but had they asked us, we would have told them to reject his geirus”.

If there are people doing invalid geirus in the US, calling themselves Orthodox even though they’re apikirsom, and they’re RCA members, it would be irresponsible to not question the definition of “Orthodox” in the US.

ZD’s right about there being politics. The RCA is fearful of having all of their members’ geirus questioned, because they’re not selective enough about who they allow as members, so they’re getting all defensive. They should not be playing politics with geirus.

ZD and Crisis.

So maybe now you can appreciate how bad Weiss really is.

He does not pass the lowest threshold.

But for the matter Tropper is no longer involved, so your comment is really pointless.

Unless you are saying that the Rabanut should retroactively rescind any past geirus of Weiss that had been accepted previously. Is that what you are suggesting?

Oh, is that how they rationalize it to themselves? If they want good, frum people who don’t know any better not to side with Avi Weiss, they should educate them so that they’ll know better. Revoke his membership, and do a good job explaining why they’ve done so, and why his geirus is no good.

Now, they come across as spineless and wishy washy.

Its really not as big a problem as you think.

I know a few people who converted Chabad and at some point their family became Satmar who did not accept the Chabad conversion and made them re-convert. So people dont always accept others conversion anyway

In general when its found out that someone was not converted properly but was living a jewish life ie they converted conservative or an adoption was not proper. A symbolic conversion is done

DY

You cant really define “Improper Geirus” as like I said Satmar considered Chabad Geirus “Improper” and the example I gave all agree is impoper, but thats only because we heard of him, What if there are other Troppers out there.

And I belvie many Sephardic communuties dont even allow Geirus (Like Syrians?) so in those communities all Gerius is impoper.

If a Weiss Ger lived his life as a Frum Jew, Is it still “Improper”. If a Satmar Ger goes OTD (I know some who did) is that “Improper”

“In general when its found out that someone was not converted properly but was living a jewish life ie they converted conservative or an adoption was not proper. A symbolic conversion is done”

That is not true. You have no idea what you as talking about.

Chabad does not do conversions. Maybe they once did.

ZD, you should do some research before you post random facts. Your post is riddled with errors.

1) Offspring of a mamzer or mamzeres are mamzerim. The offspring of most other arayos are also mamzeirim. Although this is not relevant to the discussion, what you wrote is factually incorrect.

2) False geirus could lead to mamzeirus, or false mamzeirim.. It might not happen often, but if a woman married a false ger and left without a get, and remarried, her children from her new husband would be wrongly considered mamzeirim. If she then left him without a get, and her first husband died, she would be considered a widow, when in reality she’s an eshes ish, and any children from a third husband would be unknown mamzeirim.

3) The discussion wasn’t even about mamzeirus. Intermarriage is a tragedy even if the children are kosher.

4) You can’t extrapolate what Rav Moshe would have held about some of these conversions. The circumstances are completely different. He dealt with Orthodox rabbis. Weiss considers himself Orthodox, but he’s not.

5) A kohen may not marry or stay married to a giyores. The kesuba is not valid because we want him to divorce her and not dissuaded by financial considerations. The children are indeed challalim. You got that part right.

Also, I don’t know what you mean “there are no standard conversions”. There is a Shulchan Aruch. There are some things which are a machlokes, but you want to throw the whole thing out!

ZD,

Avi Weiss’ sham bet din is trying to set up a et din for gittin using novel ways of permitting women to marry. (Their words)The ways are not novel, they are discredited methods. Discredited by ALL major poskim as having no halachic basis. This will definitely cause mamzeirus. Just like Rackman did.

This is the same sham Bet din that does his conversions. If we give credence to the sham BD for geirus, then there will definitely be mamzeirim following because people will believe that it is a legitimate bet din.

ZD, it would be wise to refrain from posting since it is clear that you really have no understanding of the concepts you are talking about. Really none.

FYI

While most here may not agree with him, Rav Shecter is a Gadol and Im sure he knows the Halachas too.

If there was a problem, I am sure he would address it

ZD,

It is not a new psak that DNA testing is not considered evidence to determine that a child is a mamzer. R’ Elyashiv has paskened that way and so has Chacahm Ovadia. You are not saying anything new. How ever letting a woman marry with out a get is sure way to create mamzerim.

Why are you roping R Shechter into this? He does not hold of Avi Weiss at all. I am sure he tells anyone who asks him to stay far away from Weiss.

A person cannot become a ger on their own, so this whole load of blather;

“I never said throw the whole thing out on conversions. If Avi Weiss’s conversions do not keep the Torah, they are not good. If they keep the torah then you have no argument. There is a big of vagueness that probably needs to be cleared up.”

is just that.

DY: There are cases where we allow Kohanim to remain married to a Giyores, but the kids are still Challalim.

I don’t know what those cases would be, but I certainly do not assume it would be true in ZD’s case.

Also, R’ Schachter himself has said that publicly blasting Avi Weiss/YCT (which he himself has done) as an institution will probably cause more harm than good, which is why they don’t do it.

It sounds like you’re saying that he’s done something which he thinks shouldn’t be done.

Also, people can be educated as to the error of YCT’s way in a calm, non-blasting way (although I personally prefer the blasting method. I suppose different audiences respond differently).

zahavasdad,

The issue of Mamzer was brought up by others not me

It was brought up by popa-bar-abba, presumably because the same “beis din” that enacts the conversions also handles divorces.

For the record, I do not live in Riverdale and have nothing to do with YCT or Avi Weiss, but I find it fascinating that some are so obessessed with him and ignore issues in their own house.

A classic double standard. Despite the fact that you are not chassidish and are not personally affected by issues in their communities, you had no problem opening a thread to hem and haw over bicycle banning hearsay; however, you wonder over this thread?

He has no affect on my life, and frankly he shouldnt have any affect on yours.

It’s wrong to assume that something happening in one area will not ultimately have an effect in other areas. Also, PBA started this thread and has stated numerous times that he is personally affected by the activities of this movement.

DY: It certainly wasn’t the Chassam Sofer’s Mehalach. It is similar to R’ Yisroel Salanter’s Mehalach.

Besides, how well did the Mehalach against reform really work? (Yes, doing things differently may have been worse, but our losses to reform are staggering when you think about it.)

zahavasdad,

Because of my employment situtation I am forced to defend people who appear on the front page of the NY post.

What does that mean?

Those communities are alot larger than the small one in Riverdale.

A misdirection play. YCT is spearheading a movement that is actively attempting to alter the Orthodox Jewish world. They are active in numerous cities across North America. Population and influence do not necessarily correlate.

And frankly I do have close ties to the Charedi community, stronger than you know, so they do affect me more than Riverdale does where I have none.

So how does the alleged bicycle ban affect you personally?

Also, just because you are not personally affected by the activities of the open orthodox movement, you extrapolate that nobody else here is?

Avram,

What does that mean?

I assume it means he defends Osama bin Laden or Hillary Clinton. Maybe the Boston Bomber. Maybe Elliot Spitzer or Anthony Weiner.

edited

ZD. you would have said the same thing about early Reform.

The conditions were ripe for Reform to succeed. They are not ripe anymore. And Perhaps if another approach had been taken Reform might have not been so successful.