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There are people that can’t conceive that a gadol would have the chutzpah not to agree with them.
Acording to Rav Moshe Z’l there is no such thing as Chalav Stam. There is Chalav Akum and Chalav Yisroel. According to his teshuvos the government oversight and regulation in the US satisfies the requirement of chalav yisroel.
apushatayid, you’re missing Rav Moshe’s middle of the three categories, which he calls Cholov HaCompanies but the oilem generally calls Cholov Stam. You can’t say Rav Moshe doesn’t differentiate between Cholov HaCompanies and real Cholov Yisroel since Rav Moshe says a baal nefesh should stick with real C”Y and not use CH”C (C”S).
Most milk is Chalav Machine. Nobody milks a cow anymore. Its all done by machines and mostly automated. It never touches a human until it comes to your house
Jewish Thinker
what kind of Mekor are you looking for?
suppose I told you The story occured Tuesday afternoon February 28 1978 or 21 Adar I 5738. He had justy finished giving a shiur on Atzutz Nakuv, when he asked for a coffee. ONe of the younger bachurim jumped at the oppurtunity and ran off to prepare it. Shortly after having the coffee the Rosh Yeshiva felt unwell and vomited. This was very unusual and created a big tumul. At first soem suspected the milk as it had been sitting out all day, but others drank the milk and were fine. This was really starnge. It was then that the mistake was realized. This young bachur and never prepared the Rosh Yeshiva’s coffee before and was understandibly nervous at the task at hand. He didnt double check the milk and accidently used a private bottle of instea don the Yeshiva’s cholov Yisroel milk. The end
Is that the mekor you had in mind?
now it is even online so it has to be true. And is will be enshrined for all eternity so this silly mekor for for an even sillier story will be preserved for generations to come.
Rabbi Tendler told me the story is true. This is what happened. If you don’t know the details then I can contact Rabbi Tendler.
(I’m a bit confused by the last line, but this is what you wanted, yes?)
Can we do something about the title of this thread?
EretzHaK: No, there is no middle ground. There is a takanas chazal. R’ Moshe Z’l ruled that the government oversight and regulation satisfies the requirement of the takanas chazal. dont take my word for it. Call any of his talmidim and ask them. Call R’ Dovid shlita.
Why, APY, is R’ Dovid going to say that all of the times R’ Moshe writes that it’s better to be machmir and that he was machmir were forged?
apushatayid: Was it an oversight that you didn’t address the point made that Rav Moshe paskens that a baal nefesh should not eat C”S/CH”C and should only eat real C”Y? Rav Moshe clearly differentiates between the two.
As to your point, Rav Moshe issued a heter on how to satisfy Chazal’s requirement. It is not obvious without a heter that when Chazal say a Jew is required onsite that it can rather be satisfied with periodic inspections by a Christian FDA official.
I personally follow the last line of his psak whenever possible too. It does not change the fact that he issued a psak that the government oversight and regulation satisfies the takana of chazal. You can disagree with his psak all you want, it doesnt change what he paskened.
I personally follow the last line of his psak whenever possible too.
So you agree that for practical purposes, there are three categories.
apushatayid: This conversation started with your incorrect comment of “Acording to Rav Moshe Z’l there is no such thing as Chalav Stam. There is Chalav Akum and Chalav Yisroel.” I simply pointed out that Rav Moshe certainly does differentiate between C”S (which he calls CH”C) and real C”Y, i.e. that was witnessed by a real Yisroel. And I pointed out this is obvious since Rav Moshe explicity paskens that a baal nefesh should not consume C”S/CH”C and only consume real C”Y. If there were no difference, as you claimed “Acording to Rav Moshe Z’l there is no such thing as Chalav Stam”, then there would be no way for Rav Moshe to instruct those who are a baal nefesh to refrain from C”S.
Reb Moshe drank chalav stam thats a fact that any of his family members can attest to. Moreover, R’ Dovid and R’Reuven drank chalav stam until recently b/c “baal nefesh” means an older person with a certain ziknah. The revisionism here is appaling. What is a “baal nefesh” ? Ask his own choldren. R’ Shirkin from Toras Moshe would call this a “heter sh’ayn hatzibur yecholim la’amod bah”.
Read the teshuva. you can make up this “3rd category” all you want. I’m not your rav, or Rav Moshes spokesperson.
“So far nobody has given me details to the story…. “
probably because there is no story.
Jewish Thinker
I gave you a very detailed account
Mesorah 123
I heard from R’ Michel Shurkin (on multiple occasions)that there is double schar for drinking chalav stam: keeping kosher and listening to the psak of a gadol
Reb Moshe drank chalav stam thats a fact
It’s certainly possible that he did at some point, but he writes that he was personally makpid.
So far nobody has given me details to the story….
I happen to have heard that the story is true, but I didn’t even bother asking for details, because, really, what difference does it make?
We know that:
a) he held it was muttar
b) he was personally machmir, held it was better to be machmir, and even more so when it’s readily available.
So there’s no real nafka mina from the story. It’s interesting, because it shows the attitude we’re supposed to have towards maachalos assuros. If this was his reaction to unintentionally eating or drinking something which is muttar meikar hadin, how much more should we be careful of actual issur.
But it doesn’t change the halacha one way or another.
apushatayid: Which category is Rav Moshe instructing a baal nefesh to refrain from consuming? C”A is assur according to all. C”Y (eye-witnessed by a Jew) is permitted according to all. So which category is Rav Moshe instructing a baal nefesh to refrain from consuming?
mesorah 123: Revisionism is inventing that baal nefesh means “an older person with a certain ziknah”. That’s a new one. Rav Moshe didn’t write a zokein. Many young people can be described as being a baal nefesh.
Read the teshuva. you can make up this “3rd category” all you want.
OK, I will list the three categories. Please tell me which one you disagree with:
1) Cholov Akum: milked without supervision, without any external reasons, such as govenment regulations or remoteness from any b’heimah t’meiah, to think there’s no milk from a b’heima t’meiah mixed in. Assur.
2) Cholov Yisroel: milked under proper supervision. Muttar.
3) Cholov HaCompanies/Cholov Stam: milked without specific supervision, but subject to government regulation. Some say assur, Rav Moshe and others say muttar, Rav Moshe says baal nefesh yachmir, apushatayid will opt for category 2 instead, when possible.
If course I’ve read the teshuvos. He doesn’t quite use my wording, but all three categories are alluded to.
Jewish thinker. The story is false and not famous but infamous for its falsity. I am a good friend of R’ Moshe’s great grandson (Fishelis) and he said it is false. Every person who drinks chalav stam gets big zchusim for not engaging in pseudo – frumkeit and for following Reb Moshe’s psak. As an aside even w/o Reb Moshe you also have the pri chadash to rely on.
mesorah 123: So Rav Moshe was being pseudo-frum in advising baalei nefesh to refrain from C”S (and refraining from C”S himself, as he writes)? You get a big zchus for drinking C”S instead of C”Y and no zchus for being a baal nefesh and drinking C”Y instead of C”S, as Rav Moshe advises?
Eretz Hak. Please define a “ba’al nefesh”. Reb Reuven and Dovid drank c”s most of there life and now they feel baal nefesh applies to them. Reb Moshe drank C”S. No one intelligent or intellectually honset disputes that. As did most ppl in that time.
EretzHaK: Pretending to be a Baal Nefesh is an Issur of Gaavah/Yuhara, no?
Sam2: Anyone can choose to act as a baal nefesh thus working himself to that without any pretensions from accepting upon himself to be noheig to be machmir to only consume C”Y.
mesorah 123: Translate baal nefesh and you’ll have your answer. Someone who does what’s best for his neshoma. Even if according to the letter of the law you can do less without violating the law.
DaasYochid says he heard confirmation that the maaisa of Rav Moshe vomiting up C”S is true. Others deny it. You claim that Rav Moshe and his sons consumed C”S. Others deny it and Rav Moshe himself writes he is makpid.
Are you going to believe what Rav Moshe himself writes or are you going to believe the stories where everyone claims something else?
I have heard many stories about Gedolim where they gave a different reason for the action than the real reason as not to embarass a person.
For example Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky wasnt sure about someones Kashruth on Pesach so he said he didnt each Gebroachs as not to embarass that person.
They story about Rav Moshe could have been the following. Someone could have given him spoiled milk and Rav Moshe did not want to embarasses the person for doing so , so said it was Chalav Stam as they would not be as bad as giving him spoiled milk
EretzHaK: Baal Nefesh does not mean someone who does what’s best for his Neshama. Traditionally, it meant only those who were leading Tzadikim and Talmidei Chachamim. In the past 30 or so years, everyone has decided to be Notel Es HaShem.
ZD, could be, anything’s possible. What difference does it make?
Sam2: Do you have any written sources you can cite to support your definition of a baal nefesh?
DY
What difference does the Baker or the Butler’s offense against Paroah?
Imagine you are serving the Gadol Hador some milk and suddenly he throws up. You would feel terrible of course, but if you served him spoiled milk you would feel even worse as you could have gotten him sick or worse. But if you served him Chalav Stam which you knew Rav Moshe poskind was OK, you would feel bad you did not give him Chalav Yirosel , but you wouldnt feel as bad as you might have sent him to the ER for spoiled milk.
EretzHaK: Do you have any that support yours? Walk into Brisk and ask what they do about “Baal Nefesh Yachmir” and why.
Look at the Gemaras in Taanis about what makes someone a “Yachid”.
Rashi teitches a baal nefesh as “a kosher person” in Chullin 6a. Rabbeinu Chananel over there teitches it as “a person who distances himself from aveiras and is careful with himself.”
Its truly amazing how people can manage turn black into white and white into black if they want to badly enough. That it should be a mitzva to drink davka chalav stam? And an aveirah to drink chalav yisroel?!
If somebody told that to R’ Moshe, I don’t know if he’d laugh or cry.
To quote John Stewart: “Amazingly, mind-boggingly, almost inspiringly stupid!”
Someone could have given him spoiled milk and Rav Moshe did not want to embarasses the person for doing so , so said it was Chalav Stam as they would not be as bad as giving him spoiled milk.
But how would Rav Moshe tz”l know that it was chalav stam without asking the person?
I think you totally missed my point. I dont know if the story is true or not, I am suggesting that they story might be true but for a different reason and IMO my version actually shows greater midot of Rav Moshe.
I really dont belive that Rav Moshe vomited Chalav Stam , because it was Chalav Stam and people are using this as a reason not to use it. It would show that Rav Moshe was a Hippocrite (CHV) as he said one thing but did another, However if he was accidently given spoiled milk and did not want to embarass the giver, This shows his mida of not embarrasing someone who did an accident and one should not yell at someone who Puts too much salt in the soup , Closes door on your fingers or accidently gives you spoiled milk.
DY -“1) Cholov Akum: milked without supervision, without any external reasons, such as govenment regulations or remoteness from any b’heimah t’meiah, to think there’s no milk from a b’heima t’meiah mixed in. Assur”
The implication of your post is that it’s always “Osser”, which is not true! If some Achronim hold that butter and cream is Mutter, then it can’t be Osser in the classic usual version of Chazal.
There was absolutely no implication in my post about butter or cream.
There is a kuntress on paskening by the Shac”h located in between simanim (do not remember which) in Choshen Mishpat that says something along the lines, When a Rov writes in a Teshuva that a Baal Nefesh Yachmir it means that ALL hold with the exception of a Daas Yochid that the Psak in question is Mutter and if you feel the need as a Baal Nefesh to follow the Daas Yochid then Baal Nefesh Yachmir.
which if you ever saw the video of R’ Belskey talking about R’ Moshes Psak on C’Y he says that R’ Moshe always would say that he was always careful to write a Baal Nefesh Yachmir when saying a person can rely on the Hetter of Cholov HaCompanies.
The ???? ????? certainly doesn’t limit use of the term that way.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40448&st=&pgnum=4&hilite=
I’ve seen that video.
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