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Rav Moshe’s great-grandfather Rav Dovid, was a Koidenover Chosid, as was Rav Moshe’s father, Rav Dovid, in his youth.
Does anyone have more minutiae of this part of Rav Moshe’s lineage?
The Steipler’s father (Rav Chaim’s grandfather) was a Chernobyl chossid.
Chernobyl Chassidim are a glowing light unto the world
Who cares. Chassidus is a behaviour and a way of thinking not something you inherit in your blood. I wonder how many of Rav Moshe’s ancestors were grocery store owners……
Someone recently reported a comment from Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L. He was asked why the dynasties of Chassidim, the talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov, and their talmidim still have individuals who are leaders in Klal Yisroel, talmidei chachomim and ovdei Hashem, but that the talmidim of the Vilna Gaon ZT”L do not have anything comparable. Rav Yaakov responded that those talmidim of the Gaon all affixed their signatures to the cheirem against chassidim. The notable exception was Rav Chaim of Volozhin, who is the patriarch of the great Soloveichik family.
Many of the renowned litvishe roshei yeshivos come from chassidishe backgrounds.
Many of the Talmidai HaGra moved to E”Y, so I think it would be hard to trace them.
“Rav Moshe’s great-grandfather Rav Dovid, was a Koidenover Chosid, as was Rav Moshe’s father, Rav Dovid, in his youth.”
“The Steipler’s father (Rav Chaim’s grandfather) was a Chernobyl chossid.”
The OP intimates that they were great because they came from Chassidish stock. Maybe their greatness came because they stopped being Chassidish.
That doesn’t make any sense since there have been (and currently are) many great tzadikim among the chasidim that remained chasidic and many that were not chasidic but became chasidic. Besides, if we take that comment at face value it means you’re suggesting that the Steipler’s father and Rav Moshe’s father and great-grandfather weren’t great.
In line with what TLIK mentioned, Rav Hutner too is of chasidic lineage.
“That doesn’t make any sense since there have been (and currently are) many great tzadikim among the chasidim that remained chasidic and many that were not chasidic but became chasidic. “
You’re right. I was putting out a counter-point to show the silliness of the OP. Speaking of which, all Chassidish rebbes can credit their non-Chassidish ancestors.
Seriously, AFAIK there was a lot of cross pollination between families and ideas, so everyone has some of this and that. Furthermore, it’s not for us to judge Gedolim.
Let’s just keep in mind that we have no idea who is a big Tzaddik, who is a greater Tzaddik, and who is the greatest Tzaddik of all.
To pretend otherwise is foolish and ill-advised.
Each of us does have an obligation to choose a Rav to help us find our derech in Avodas Hashem, and to advise us in observing Mitzvos correctly.
There is no obligation or need to pontificate on the merits of other Rabbanim, or on the brilliance of our own Rav’s mehalach compared to others.
A few more.
Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L came from Lubavitcher chasidim. Check with the family.
Rav Ruderman ZT”L came from Lubavitcher chasidim. He told me this personally, noting that he carries a Tanya in his talis bag.
Rav Yaakov Weinberg ZT”L of Baltimore is a scion of the family of the Slonimer Rebbeim.
It is wonderful these Gedolim and Rabbonim are baali tsuva. They have returned the religion of their pre baal shem tov ancesters.
It is about time those who come from a Chasidish background and are the Yeshivasah world do not go back to davening Aschanaz like the ancesters did. At one time we all (in Eurpe) davened the same nusach. The baal shem tov cause less unity in the nation which is the opposite path of bringing Messiach.
Just finished learning todays Daf. Can someone tell me if Rav Meir, Rav Yehuda, Rav Sheshes and Rav Pappa were chassidish or litvish? What about Rashi? Rabbeinu Tam?
And can you please let us know, apushata-
Which of those was the smartest? the greatest? the biggest tzaddik?
And while you’re at it please also let us know-
Exactly what type of hat did each one of them wear?
*And did it involve fur?
Guys, what’s this chip on your shoulders? I didn’t see any reference in the OP (or in any subsequent comment) of Chasidim being better — just an interesting tidbit that the greatest Litvish Godol in America was actually a descendant of Chasidim. If anything it seemed to be an attempt to “legitimize” Chasidim.
Maybe TLIK’s comment can be misconstrued as such, but I understood it to emphasize the danger of the old Misnagdus vs. Chasidus machlokes not the superiority of Chasidim per se. Instead some here are trying to revive that long dead fight…
Are my comprehension skills failing me?
Obviously not a “long dead fight”, Mammele.
Are trolls litvishe or chassidish?
Besides fashion and style, what is the difference between a Chasidishe Rebbe and a Rav of a kehilla?
cherrybim: One is viewed as a human being, and one is viewed as more than a human being. That was one of the Gra’s issues with chassidus – the deification of the Rebbe.
“Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L. He was asked why the dynasties of Chassidim, the talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov, and their talmidim still have individuals who are leaders in Klal Yisroel, talmidei chachomim and ovdei Hashem, but that the talmidim of the Vilna Gaon ZT”L do not have anything comparable. Rav Yaakov responded that those talmidim of the Gaon all affixed their signatures to the cheirem against chassidim. The notable exception was Rav Chaim of Volozhin, who is the patriarch of the great Soloveichik family.”
That is a despicable lie. I don’t believe Rav Yaakov zt”l said it. He was a man of truth. It is a Chassidishe bubba mayseh.
There are leaders in Klal Yisroel from the camp of the GRA. But not everyone advertises their yichus. Some feel that they are not worthy of being associated with such a great gadol. They are humble. Among some others it is more common to advertise yichus.
Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlita is a descendant of the GRA by the way.
“Rav Moshe Shternbuch shlita is a descendant of the GRA by the way.”
Rav Moshe Shternbuch is the Ravaad of the Badatz of the Eidah HaChareidus. I don’t think that he’s chasidish himself but he surely strongly affiliates with the strictest chasidic denominations in Eretz Yisroel including Satmar whose first two Rebbes were the Nasi of the Eidah and the Divrei Yoel was the Gaavad of Yerushalyaim as well. I also think Rav Moshe may have headed a part of Satmar in England where Rav Moshe’s son is currently in place.
R’ Chaim Berlin has a teshuva about davening in a Chassidish shul
(???? ???? ??”? ???:? in the edition which I’m quoting from):
??????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???”? ?”? ?? ??’ ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?’ ??????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????
The Eidah Chareidis is a group made up of different factions. Litvishe like Briskers and old Yerushalmis, as well as Chasidish. Rav Moshe Shternbuch has a Shul named after the GRA ztvk”l. Obviously he is not Chasidish.
The Eidah Charedis goes back many years, to old Yerushalmis. It was not started by Satmar. Satmar was in Hungary then. They came later.
“Rav Hutner too is of chasidic lineage.”
Rav Hutner’s father was of Litvish background, while his mother was from a Polish Chasidish one. The Torah tells in Bamidbar (Rashi on second pasuk in beginning) that someone whose father is from one shevet and mother from a different shevet, goes according to the father’s shevet.
Golfer:
R’ Meir was the smartest as per Eruvin 13a:
?”? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????
If we assume that R’ Meir was R’ Elazar Ben Arach, his unique brilliance is further described in Avos 2:8:
??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????
Though apashutayid’s list included Rav Yehuda. He would seem to be referring to ?? ????? not ??? ?????; however, he wrote Rav Meir for ??? ???? thus leaving open the possibility that he was not being so exacting in his lashon, in which case he might have actually meant ??? ?????.
if that is the case then perhaps one could argue that R’ Yehuda himself would not agree that R’ Meir was the most brilliant – he might refer to R’ Meir’s brilliance as argumentativeness as per Kiddushin 52b:
??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?’ ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ????
Typo:
My citation of the ???? ???? should be ???:?
MHY:
You may question the veracity of my comment. I happen to have verified it with a few sources who were close to Rav Yaakov ZT”L. To label it a despicable lie, and then to, more accurately, state that you don’t believe it – leaves you comment self-contradictory. You are free to not believe. But until you verify it as false, you should not label it a “despicable lie”.
PAA: Interesting teshuva. Feif Un once posted the following story here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lack-of-ashkenaz-siddurim#post-316187 (I actually met the Rebbe who told it over, and he confirmed to me that it’s true):
Some bochurim (including my Rebbe) were traveling with R’ Aharon to a simcha. On the way, they stopped at a nearby shul to daven mincha. The shul davened nusach sfard. R’ Aharon asked if he could daven for the amud, and they said yes. He walked up, and davened nusach Ashkenaz.
Afterward, one of his students asked him why he did this, if the minhag hamakom was to daven sfard. He replied, “Minhag hamakom is proper at times, but this is the proper nusach!”
DaMoshe:
I think R’ Chaim Berlin would agree that b’etzem nusach sefard is not the proper nusach. His point was that once the shul is davening a certain nusach, you can’t publicly deviate. R’ Aharon managed to change the tzibur’s nusach, but if he hadn’t been able to secure the amud, he might have davened nusach sefard (for the public parts).
Thank you for the answer, PAA.
Brilliant.
I especially liked the part about the kanteranim.
I think we can find some of their descendants kantering around here in the CR.
But of course who are we to deny them entry…
“I happen to have verified it with a few sources who were close to Rav Yaakov ZT”L.”
It is known that that is an old Chasidishe bubba mayseh. So Rav Yaakov definitely did not originate it. If somehow he mentioned it (which doesn’t mean he believed it, maybe he just mentioned it as something Chasidim claim), I doubt that as well, as he had a keen sense of emes vs. its opposite. If so, maybe someone fooled him briefly, but I find even that hard to believe. As to your alleged (anonymous) ‘close’ sources (Chasidish students of R. Yaakov?), maybe I will ask a close family member if I see them. Which could be soon, with Hashem’s help.
My question was rhetorical. It doesnt matter to me who was smarter or greater. It is irrelevent. All of them were way smarter and way greater than me.
Re: Nusach Sefard. How did it get its name, in that “sefardim” dont daven nusach sefard.
But of course who are we to deny them entry…
Well once you bring this up I may as well quote the continuation of the Gemara:
??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?’ ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?’ ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ?”? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?’ ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???
?”? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??”? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????
Cute.
Rav Moshe himself was born after his forebears left Chasidus. So he was born to a Litvishe father.
I definitely don’t want to get mixed into this (or any other) brawl. But, if my memory doesn’t fail me, I seem to recall that he was born after a Bracha from a Chasidishe Rebbe. And he actually displayed a certain Hakaras Hatov toward that particular dynasty/sect.
<<Frogging Out>>
Whatever may or may not have been before, lemashal when he was a katan, Rav Moshe’s father was Litvish when his son was born.
Joseph: Is that the page where his great grandmother learned in Cheder?
ZD do you really think that is funny??
Lighten up, Dont always be so serious
I don’t think Goq is deficient in the humor department.
PAA, you lost me there somewhere.
As they say in the Oval Office, way above my paygrade…
PAA, you lost me there somewhere.
I lost myself too. For some reason I thought that the last quote said that Sumchus would give 48 reasons to be metamei something tahor and to be metaher something tamei and I therefore compared him to R’ Meir. In reality, though, the quote was saying that he would give 48 reasons to be metamei something tamei and be metaher something tahor. I apologize for the confusion.
why does it matter if r’ moshe z’l parents were chassidishe or litvish?
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