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your ‘heilige’ medina.
Avi K- your post is laughable.
msseeker: When we say “Yiftach B’Doro”, at least he was Yiftach. He wasn’t Joe on the street, and he certainly wasn’t a Masis like the leaders of the Reform. Rav Kook is more similar to other Gedolim of their time of whom Klal Yisroel did not Pasken like them, such as Bais Shammai, the Ibn Ezra, R’ Meir, etc.
Da’as Yochid, according to many, Hertzl was a tinok she’nishba.
According to me, Hertzl was a tinok she’nishba too. Yet according to Avi, and, I’m afraid, DL/MO thought, Hertzl, “despite his shortcomings was the leader who was needed. Anyone who is a political leader in Am Yisrael, even the lightest of the light, is like the greatest of knights.”
Rachmana litzlan. If the worst of the internet would be MO blogs, the rabbonim might encourage us to use it just to see the sheer stupidity and twistedness of their beliefs.
msseeker: In all fairness, it is a direct quote of a Gemorah.
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Parnes does not mean Gadol, Talmid Chacham, or even someone who is a Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos (unless you have a Rishon that explains otherwise. I’m just reading Pashtus of the Gemorah).
I don’t like it either, but it seems to be the truth.
GAW, Kook’s kookery – being maspid Hertzel(!) – directly led to Avi’s tragicomic thinking. This makes him either a maisis, or, as Rabbi Wein (no kanoi by any stretch) describes him, “a gentle but confused soul.” Which is the best you can say about him.
(I can’t believe this thread is still going on.)
I’ll just say this…
While I think Herzl was a terrible Jew, and it pains me when see streets and even a city(!) named for him in Eretz Yisrael, I don’t think he was really a rasha. As warped as his hashkafas were, his intentions were not to harm the Jewish People but to help the Jewish People. Yes, I know the expression “the road to gehenom is paved with ‘good intentions'”, and I agree that in Herzl’s case for sure, this expression is correct. One has only to look at what became of his children to see how wrong he was (about many things). Nevertheless, as others have said, he was a tinok she’nishba, not a rasha.
HaRav Avraham Yitzchak HaKohen Kook ztz”l was a gaon and a tzadik who does not need me (or anyone else) to defend him.
Lehavdil elef havdalos, – when someone listens to music by Mozart and says “eh, that really stunk!” that person is not making a statement about Mozart, he’s making a statement about his own understanding of music.
Ms, what can we do, he was the keli Hashem chose. BTW, Rav Kuk explains in his hesped that being that Mashiach ben Yosef’s tafkid is solely concerned with the material this causes him to oppose the spiritual. The opposite is also true. However, again what can we do, Hashem chose to make us material beings in a material world and then raise it up. However, very few people can have two tables. For example, I know someone who is at the top of his profession and very much in demand as a lecturer. However, when he opens his mouth about Tora absolute nonsense comes out.
One is not allowed to say anything negative about a Gadol. it is a HUGE Averirah
You might not agree with that Gadol and you might not have to follow that Gadol, but you are not allowed to show ANY Lack of Kavod to him.
GAW, Kook’s kookery – being maspid Hertzel(!) – directly led to Avi’s tragicomic thinking. This makes him either a maisis, or, as Rabbi Wein (no kanoi by any stretch) describes him, “a gentle but confused soul.” Which is the best you can say about him.
1: All the Gedolim mentioned earlier in the thread would not say bad things about Rav Kook. Who are you compared to the Gedolim?!
2: Would you say the same about ???????? ??? ???? ? How about ?????? ?? ?????? The Lubavitcher Rebbe? R’ Akiva? (Re: Bar Kochba) How about the Satmer Rov R’ Yoel (re: A vs. Z & the violence in Beis Shemesh)?
3: A Mesis is a very strong term and has a halachic definition. This is not it.
I mostly agree with AinOhdMilvado, but will add one point. Hertzel was no different than any Sar, and Lev Melachim V’Sarim B’yad Hashem. He must have had some sort of Zechus to help give birth to such a Machazik Torah like the Medinah.
If you want to know what the Gedolim said of Rav Kook, here are some examples:
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If you want to know what the Gedolim said of the Satmar Rebbe, here are some examples:
Rav Yitzchok Hutner zt’l:
Rav Ahron Kotler zt’l:
Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky zt’l:
GAW- or the satan has funny ways of convincing people and twisting their heads. by extension, you could claim that a certain figure who led a genocide against klal yisroel ,yimach shemo, also was misayeiya in creating the medina, but even avi k understands to a certain degree that bad actions by bad people are just that and no more. hertzl was a rasha and did bad things. zehu! maybe we should go live in uganda- at least that way no-one will make these ridiculous mistakes and be matzdik a rasha, and not only that, give him credit for things he fought against. Feh!
Msseeker, if you want to talk about mistakes with tragic results, what about the decision of eastern eucropean gedolim whose decision to fight emigration to either the USA or Palestine resulted in the forced assimilation by the Communists and death in the Holocaust
Thanks, Torah Yid and Toi. There’s plenty more to say but I have no time or patience to keep up this fruitless back-and-forth. Toi, you said it most eloquently in your last sentence. 😉
Tora Yid: Way to go! Finally somebody saying what needs to be said.
lesschumras: maybe had they emigrated to usa or Eretz Yisrael, the gezeira would have followed them there.
When it “hits the fan” here in the “medina shel chesed” as r’l I’m afraid it is soon going to do, I’m sure none of you pseudo-Satmers will run to the “traif Tziyoni medina” but would prefer to go down with the ship of galus right here.
Will your quotes mentioned above, maligning a great tzadik (that not one person commenting here can measure up to the soles of his feet) – will they give you some measure of comfort for your decision to live in Amerika when you had the opportunity, had you taken it, to live in Eretz Yisrael. I am well aware of the problems in Eretz Yisrael, much MORE aware than most of you, but they are OUR, the Jewish People’s, problems. Is living in Amerika problem-free for Yidden that you prefer to live in a foreign land than your own? I don’t want anyone’s answers. Save them to tell HaSh-m. See if He buys any of them.
Longarekel, +1.
Lesschumras, when they were paskening, they were right according to the situation in front of them.
ToraYid, see Chavat Yair 152 (usually it is printed at the end of Sefer Chafetz Chaim). As for the Satma Rebbe, he once was very upset because Rav Aharon Kotler called a certain rabbi an am ha’aretz. He calmed down when someone said to him “the rav says ‘am ha’aretz’ like the rebbe says ‘apikorus'”.
avi k- and, as has been explained thoroughly by previous posters, their kovod was for his piety and greatness in torah, but in regard to his hashkafos, specifically li’inyan zionism, the geolim said that in this nikuda he went mishuga from ahavas yisroel. no-one id CV”S degrading his greatness, rather that a great person could still be a to’eh, as the gedolim said. I suppose you have the right to live your life following a to’us.lihavdil- do you believe in darwinism? no-one would tell you he was an idiot and wasnt an expert in his field, but his theory turned out to be false, too. but hey, go for it.
AOM: Where do you come off insinuating that Israel is outside of golus? It most certainly is not. And when Yidden are suffering in golus they are suffering in Israel as well. Indeed, since its creation there has been more golus suffering by yidden inside the State than outside it. And unless you claim to be a prophet, there is no way for you to predict it will “hit the fan” any less inside the State. It could even hit much worse inside. Don’t presume the Zionists are some sort of safehaven.
Avi: Your stories are simply inaccurate. For example, your story about the CC at the Aguda convention originates from Simcha Raz’s notoriously unreliable biography on Rav Kook. In it, Raz writes many distortions, by omission and commission. He indicates, falsely, that the Gedolei Yisroel in general held of R. Kook and it was merely Kanaim who opposed him, which is clearly false. In the famous letter of the Imrei Emes about R. Kook, he omitted the part of the letter where he says that R. Kook “says about Tameh that it is Tahor and Tahor that it is Tameh”, as well as other parts, giving a totally wrong idea of what the letter said. (Btw, the Imrei Emes (Gerrer Rebbe) claimed to have had a letter form Rav Kook where he says he regrets many of the things he said, including the statements about Apikorsim being holy. The problem is that even so, his seforim still contain those “pre-teshuva” teachings, and it is that Rav Kook – the one described in his seforim, the one that everyone knows of, that we are discussing here, not the private, repented one. )
As far as the Chofetz Chaim — From “Mishkenos Harayim” 3:1-108:
“Rav kook said about the opening of the Hebrew University, that it is a fulfillment of kimitzion etc. – immediately the gedolim in Poland and Russian organized a protest against this chilul hashem – and the chofezt chaim came in and said, “kook Shmook!” and then he left.” (As related by Rav Berel Sooveitchik zt’l.)
When the Chofetz chaim heard what Rav Kook said about Hebrew U, he trembled, and started walking back and forth and said “Kook shmook! Kook shmook!”, and so he continued for a long while.”
And the Chofetz Chaim’s statement is mild compared to what other Gedolim have said about him. Particularly relevant in this context is a letter by Rav Elchonon Wasserman to Rav Yosef Zvi Dushinsky, printed in Kovetz Maamarim, of which a facsimile of his Ksav Yad is readily accessible, where he refers to R. Kook as a “rasha gamur.” This was the eternally loyal Talmid of the Chofetz Chaim, who spent his life disseminating his Rebbi’s Torahs. (When the Chofetz Chaim was considering moving to EY, Rav Chaim Ozer asked him who will take care of Klall Yisroel in Chutz Laaretz if he leaves. The Chofetz Chaim answered, “What do you mean? You have Reb Elchonon!”)
So you have Rav Yosef Chaim Zonenfeld’s statement that he was “drunk on ahavas yisroel” and therefore we should take what he says as if it came form a drunkard” to the Chofetz Chaim’s “Kook shmook” – to the Satmar Rav’s psak in a Teshuva to Rav Yosef Chaim declaring him an Apikores and his halachic rulings assur to follow across the board.
The following is based on the sefer by R’ Shimon Finkelman shlit”a “Five Great Leaders” (page 82):
Ten years following the Balfour Declaration, when asked to clarify his opinion, R’ Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTVK”L explained:
Back in Pressburg (under the Chasam Sofer ZTVK”L and then under the Ksav Sofer ZTVK”L), every year a “Purim Rav” was selected. It is forbidden to pasken halacha even after a little drink. On Purim, everyone drinks so who will pasken an urgent sheilah? This is where the Purim Rav steps in. The Purim Rav, someone who was familiar with every-day halachos and who would remain sober on Purim, was “on call” in the event that an urgent question came up. R’ Yosef Chaim ZTL then said that this is how he views his purpose in the current times. After the Balfour Declaration came out and the Zionists began gaining control over Jewish matters in E”Y, many Jews, rabbanim included, became inebriated by the sheker-dik joy that arose. The yearning for Geulah was warped into viewing Zionism as the beginnning of Geulah. But HKB”H, explained R’ Yosef Chaim, has granted him the wisdom to remain sober and to not get swept up in the toxic winds of Zionism. He stated that in our history, there has never subsisted such a horrible threat to the existence of Klal Yisroel as Zionism, a movement that wishes to destroy our mesorah from Sinai. R’ Yosef Chaim continued: someone once asked him why he felt no happiness over the Balfour Declaration. He replied: “The drunk also wonders why everyone else isn’t joining him in his revelry. I am not drunk, and therefore I cannot rejoice”.
Tora Yid: Rav Schachter quotes a Ramban that after Jews have control of Eretz Yisrael for a third time they will never lose it again.
Toi: I’m not sure which of my points you are dealing with. I think you will agree Rav Kook was not a Masis U’madiach, should not be called named by puny us, and that Hertzel was in no way a “talmid” of Rav Kook.
Tora Yid: The Satmer Rov was just as much an extremist (if not more) and his views were just as much not accepted by the Olam as Rav Kook. In fact, there are many similarities between the two. The main difference may be the tone of the Satmer Rov’s Kanoius vs. the Ahavas Yisroel which the Gedolim of the time accused Rav Kook of having too much.
gavra: I shared quotes of multiple Gedolim about the Satmar Rebbe and about Rav Kook. Compare the quotes above about each of them. The difference in opinion of the Gedolim about each of them is greater than the Atlantic. The rebbe was called a giant in Torah AND midos by the LITVISHE gedolim. The last of the lions. A remnant from the previous doros.
The only thing the Torah world weren’t mekabel from the SR’s position on this issue was how to deal with the State after-the-fact. Satmar and some others don’t vote in Israeli elections and do not accept any funding from the government, even though their schools are legally entitled to that money. Most of the frum velt does vote and accept government money. That’s the only fundamental difference of opinion. The gedolim otherwise fully agree with the SR’s position on Zionism.
And while one godol called R. Kook a rasha gamur and another godol called him an apikorus, as quoted above, the gedolim had effusive and unrelenting high praise for the SR.
Tora Yid…
You wrote “unless you claim to be a prophet, there is no way for you to predict it will “hit the fan” any less inside the State. It could even hit much worse inside.”
Really?
Can you refresh my memory please.
Where was it talking about when the pasuk speaks about HaSh-m’s eyes being on SOMEWHERE…
?????? ???? ?? ????? ????
Was it Lakewood or Monsey?
(If you know your history, you may recall that EVEN during the Holocaust, Eretz Yisrael was spared.)
TY: Sorry, my response was blocked. Have an excellent day.
the last part, although my post was addressed to avi w, sorry, k.
Does anyone here know who was the mesader kiddushin for HaRav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach ztz”l?
Look it up.
I’ll give you a hint.
His last name starts with a ?.
ToraYid
You said “The rebbe was called a giant in Torah AND midos by the LITVISHE gedolim.” While I am not doubting this fact, there was opposition to some of his ideas by others.
After the Six Day War, the Agudas Yisrael had a convention to decide its position on the matter. It was unsure of whether to support the Satmar Rebbe’s position that the victory was from the Satan (which at the time Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky supported) or whether it was a Nes from Hashem. After many Rabbonim spoke, Rav Itche Meyer Levin, the son-in-law of the Gerrer Rebbe got up to voice his opinion. He said “Not so long ago the Jewish people suffered the horrible loss of 6 million Jews in the Holocaust. When we went to the gedolim for an explanation we were told that we must be silent and accept this because it was G-d’s will. Now we were just faced with another possible holocaust in the Land of Israel but the Jews were saved this time. We hear gedolim who say that these millions who were saved were saved by Satan. How is that when it comes to the death of Jews it is G-d’s work but when it comes to rescuing them from death it is Satan? It can’t be.” At that point, Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky sent on a note up to be read by the podium that read “I want to publicly retract my previous statement supporting the view of the Satmar Rebbe and say that now I agree fully with what Rabbi Levin just stated.”
So while its true that many Gedolim may have supported the Satmar Rebbe, others disagreed. Another famous one is where Rav Moshe Feinstein disagrees with the Satmar Rebbe over the issue of sending Israeli soldiers into Uganda to save Jewish lives.
The Satmar Rebbe himself admitted that he was a daat yachid but said that being that the other gedolim did not learn it out with him he did not feel obligated to retract his postiton. BTW, Rav Levin signed Israel’s declaration of independence as head of the Aguda and was a member of the first government.
Tora Yid, you are wrong! The other Gedolim have not accepted the extreme position of the Satmar Rebbe about the Zionism. They did not hold that better all the Yidden in E.Yisroel should be dead(c^v) rather than there should exist a Yiddishe medina(as the the Satmar Rebbe wrote) etc.!
Or at least, hundreds of thousands of Yidden.
It’s an issue of how to fight it. Those other Gedolim, such as Rav Ahron Kotler for example, opposed Zionism just as much as they did before the war. They just held that after ’48, the battle to prevent Israel from coming into existence is lost, the bad guys won, and we now need to fight Zionism on a different front. The way to do that is to try to obtain Hatzolah Purtah. If we cannot prevent Israel from coming into existence, let’s try to make sure it does minimal damage to Judaism. Frum Jews need to join the government and use whatever leverage the frum community has at its disposal to prevent bad decrees and to ensure the rights and the flourishing of the frum community. They held that joining the State was the best was to oppose Zionism and its bad effects. What changed was, before the State we had to oppose having anything to do with the Zionists. After the State, their goals are already accomplished, so now the best way to fight them is to join their State and make sure they don’t do more damage than necessary.
The Satmar Rebbe held that such an approach is not Hatzolah Purtah but rather makes you an accessory to the crime after the fact. He held that we still need to have nothing to do with the Zionists including joining their state.
How many jews have gone astray because of zionism? How many jews have gone astray because of the satmar shitta? The facts speak for themselves. As for the jews having control of eretz yisrael(someone quoted a ramban without a source) I beg to differ. It is a democratic government with some jewish representation. This cannot be called ‘jewish’ control even if they have the audacity to call it a ‘jewish state’. We are not fooled by the eirev rav, or by those who support them.
AOM -“When it “hits the fan” here in the “medina shel chesed” as r’l I’m afraid it is soon going to do,”
First of all, the third world war will probably start there, esp. since they want to attack Iran. It will most probably be safer in this Golus till Moshiach comes.
Second of all, if the Jews here are so scared about this Medina -why do they keep voting lib/democrat? Even though everything is in Hashem’s hand – we are Mechuyav to make Hishtadlus. And right now the candidate who likes Jews the most is N. Gingrich!
So I’m sure you will vote for him, right?
Tora Yid -“and the chofezt chaim came in and said, “kook Shmook!” and then he left.” (As related by Rav Berel Sooveitchik zt’l.)”
I heard B’shem AJ – that he is going around saying the story with
“Kook, Shmook, Book”! Did you hear it directly from Rav Berel?
That story was told over first hand in public countless times by Rav Gorelick, and Rav Berel Soloveichik in Brisk of Yerushalayim used to tell it to his Talmidim as an example of what the Chofetz Chaim held of Rav Kook.
This isn’t any secret and can be confirmed by numerous talmidim of theirs first-hand. Btw, who is “AJ”?
Longarekel, how many Jews went off the derech because of Zionism? Few. Most of them would have been off anyway.
Rav Aharon HaKohen
Tel Aviv, Eretz Yisrael
[This is because] [the Rav] [the proper way] [that is] [, the Chafetz Chaim,] and he would turn his eyes with contempt from any posters [disparaging Rav Kook -ed]).
[words which] [This is because] [And this is especially true regarding] this brilliant and pious [rav] [on this matter] and we must go out and rebuke this humiliation of the Torah, and join ourselves to the protest and great anger of the rabbis and sages of the Holy Land and the exile regarding these words of villainy. [Thus] we should not see [that which is] Holy destroyed, G-d Forbid.And may Hashem, may His Name be Blessed, remove the disgrace from the children of Israel and raise the honor of our Holy Torah. These are the words [of one] who writes with a wounded and agitated heart regarding the honor of our holy Torah which is [being] given over to disgrace.
Aharon HaKohen
Avi K…
Ya’asher Ko’ach!!! You have done MORE than your part in defending the honor of the great gaon and tzadik HaRav Avraham Yitzchak HaKohen Kook ztz”l.
Sadly, I think your words are falling on deaf ears.
I’m sure you have heard the expression “throwing out the baby with the bath water”. I think it applies here.
Many of the commenters here are so full of venom for the chailek of Zionists that were/are ANTI-frum (and sadly, there IS a chailek like that) that their sinah carries over to anyTHING or anyONE relating to Zionism or Zionists.
Rav Kook’s brilliantly broad vision of what Yiddishkeit is, i.e. his understanding of the integral part that our Land and nation plays in our Jewish identity, and the role that even the secular Jews were playing in rebuilding our Land, is something beyond the comprehension of those whose Yiddishkeit is completely devoid of the national component. A component created all the way back when HaSh-m said to Avraham Avinu “Lech Lecha”.
Even those of us who, for some good reason, can’t live in Eretz Yisrael right now, should be wishing and aspiring to do so as soon as possible. It is one thing to feel that we have to wait for Mashiach to have a true Jewish state, it is another thing to be totally content with, and actually PREFER to be sitting in Monsey or Williamsburg (until Mashiach arrives) when one COULD be living in Eretz Yisrael if he just chose to do so.
I am saving your last comment (the letter) for future reference.
Tizkeh l’mitzvot.
-“AOM”
Wait for it, Avi. 5 minutes until someone calls it a forgery.
Really, anybody who is familiar with Sefer Chafetz Chaim 7:4 and 8:6 knows that the Chafetz Chaim could not possibly have made such a statement. Certainly not on the strength of something written in a newspaper. Or he meant that he did not believe that the quote was accurate (Kook shmook – Rav Kook did not say exactly what was quoted).
Here is the quote:
Compare with:
??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????. ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????. ????? ???? ??? ????. ?? ???? ???. ???? ???? ??? ????. ??? ???? ??? ??. ??? ??? ??. ????? ??? ?????? ????. ???? ??? ???? ???. ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???. ???? ????? ??? ????. ??? ???? ??? ??. ??? ??? ??. ????? ????? ?? ????. ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???????? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????… ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????? “?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????” (?????? ?, ?) ?? ??? ??? ????.
???? ?? ??? ???? ??, ???: ???? ???????? ?? ???? ???.
(???? ???? ??? ????? ? ??? ?)
Certain unscrupulous people claimed that Rav Kook allowed sports on Shabbat c”v. This was absolutely untrue and he even rebuffed a deleagtion of soccer players who tried to get a heter from him. All he said was that sports, at the proper time and with the proper intent, develop a healthy body and teach good middot.
Tora Yid- “This isn’t any secret and can be confirmed by numerous talmidim of theirs first-hand. Btw, who is “AJ”?”
Rav Berel’s son.
Avi K -“Really, anybody who is familiar with Sefer Chafetz Chaim 7:4 and 8:6 knows that the Chafetz Chaim could not possibly have made such a statement. Certainly not on the strength of something written in a newspaper. Or he meant that he did not believe that the quote was accurate (Kook shmook – Rav Kook did not say exactly what was quoted).”
I don’t know what the son-in-law was refering to. Perhaps s/o was Mevazeh R. Kook and he was making a Mechoh, not the Chofetz Chaim’s story?
The story from the Chofetz Chaim saying “Kook, Shmook, Book, is true; whether you and others are in denial or Not!
The story from the Chofetz Chaim saying “Kook, Shmook, Book, is true; whether you and others are in denial or Not!
Health said, and therefore it was.
GAW – And I got it from Gedolim who said the story is True!
GAW – And I got it from Gedolim who said the story is True!
Health said, and therefore it was.
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