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The entire Torah world agrees with the Satmar Rebbe’s position on zionism – i.e. that Zionism is treif. The only thing most don’t agree with him is how to deal with the zionists now that they created the state. The Rebbe says don’t have anything to do with the state, while most (but not all – Brisk agrees with Satmar even on this) feel it is okay to participate in state functions.
Health, I will call Rav Kook, Rav Tzvi Yehuda, Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, the Netziv, Rav Arye Levin, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Kalisher, Rav Yehuda Alkelai, the Gra and the Chaatm Sofer to testify on my behalf. You can decide for yourself whom to call on your behalf. Not that this is the first time. 80% of Am Yisrael refused to leave Egypt and died in the Plague of Darkness. Even after seeing all of the signs and wonders ten out of twelve gedolei hador opposed Zionism. Only a small number of social outcasts who had nothing to seek in Bavel joined Ezra and Nehemia’s Zioinist movement.
Sushe, you are simply wromg. A long list of gedolim supported Zionism from the start. I also recommend “Torat Eretz Yisrael” (it is written in English) to you.
Avi K -“Health, I will call Rav Kook, Rav Tzvi Yehuda, Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, the Netziv, Rav Arye Levin, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Kalisher, Rav Yehuda Alkelai, the Gra and the Chaatm Sofer to testify on my behalf.”
Sorry to tell you – half of those you mentioned never or would never support a Medina based on Kefira. And they will be the first to come testify against you for twisting their words!
Health, Rav Kook did not live to see the Medina, but he defended the chalutziim and was maspid Herzl. Rav Tzi Yehuda and Rav Yosef Dov Ber Soloveichik (as well as Rav Aharon Soloveichik)saw the Medina and supported it.
As for being based on kefira, Rav Kook implored frum Jews to make aliya and join the Zionist movement so that the future state would be 100% based on Tora but they did not listen and still are not – in fact, many who do make aliya do not become citizens but stay on “student” or “tourist” visas or only become “permanent residents”. The fault for shortcomings lies squarely on their shoulders.
As for Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook), when Yom HaAtzmaut fell on Bahab he said both Hallel and selichot. When asked about it he replied “Hallel on the Medina, selichot on the government”. A Medina is an organism about any government or even form of government. To give one example, France is now on its fifth republic (= fifth constitution) and has had kings and emperors. However, it remains France. Thus, we are joyful at the opportunity generations of our people (including Moshe and Aharon) did not have. We daven to be able to improve it and do our hishtadlut.
Avi K -“As for being based on kefira, Rav Kook implored frum Jews to make aliya and join the Zionist movement so that the future state would be 100% based on Tora but they did not listen and still are not – in fact, many who do make aliya do not become citizens but stay on “student” or “tourist” visas or only become “permanent residents”. The fault for shortcomings lies squarely on their shoulders.”
Yes, they did Not listen to him and they don’t want to become citizens because almost all the Gedolim didn’t hold that Rav Kook was right. So we go after the Rov in Halacha. How come you don’t??
Health,
1. I dispute your contention about the rov. In any case, the Halacha is not always like the numerical rov. For example, many times we pasken like Rabbi Yossi against the Chachamim because “nimuko imo”.
2. Why does the Eida, Satmar, etc,. not go according to the rov who participate in Israeli elections?
Avi K-
1. Except for weird circumstances we always Pasken like the Rov!
2. Naarishe question. Noone in the world holds there is a Chiyuv to vote. Even in the good ole USA – voting is a privilege, not a requirement!
Health: That’s just not true. In theory we might always Pasken like the Rov, but in reality counting a simple majority of Poskim is not how we determine Halachah.
Health,
1. Weird? I hope that your English is deficient.
2. I was not talking about a seculr legal requirememnt (BTW, some countries do require voting. In Australia a person who refrains from voting without a good reason is fined.) As most rabbanim support some political party they obviously hold that it is a mitzva to vote.
Sam2 -“Health: That’s just not true. In theory we might always Pasken like the Rov, but in reality counting a simple majority of Poskim is not how we determine Halachah.”
No? -so why do we Pasken like Bais Hillel over Bais Shammai?
Anyway – almost every Godol said you can’t listen to Rav Kook!
Health: Because the Tannaim actually had a formal vote and decided to Pasken that way.
Avi K -“As most rabbanim support some political party they obviously hold that it is a mitzva to vote.”
Yea, they want you to vote for their party, but where in the world did it become a Mitzva or a Chiyuv? Don’t mix up politics with Halacha!
To those who claim it is not a Mitzva to vote (I will not have a discussion with certain members, it is bad for my health (no pun intended)), in EY, all the Gedolim who take money from the medina (which include Rav Shach ZTL, Rav SZA ZTL, Rav Elyashiv AMUSH, Rav Kanievsky AMUSH, Rav Yosef AMUSH, etc.) hold it is a mitzva to vote. Read the Pashkevels before the elections.
Plain and simply put, votes equal money for yeshivos and Aniyim in the Charadi community.
Sam2 -“Health: Because the Tannaim actually had a formal vote and decided to Pasken that way.”
The same thing – almost every Godol said you can’t listen to Rav Kook!
GAW -“Plain and simply put, votes equal money for yeshivos and Aniyim in the Charadi community.”
Exactly they say it’s a Mitzva to support Yeshivos. There are other ways to support Yeshivos other than voting. So there is no Chiyuv to vote, no matter what you say!
Health, yes almost every gadol – with the exceptions of all those who supported him. You sound like the worker who came an hour late and said that he was almost on time.
If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. If you do not vote you are in effect voting for more secularism.
Health: I was disputing your point that we always Pasken like the Rov, not what happens in this particular case. Also, there was not a formal vote against Rav Kook of all the Halachic decisors like in the time of Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel.
Avi K -“Health, yes almost every gadol – with the exceptions of all those who supported him.”
We have to listen to most Gedolim and Not listen to minority Shittos.
“If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. If you do not vote you are in effect voting for more secularism.”
Voting will Not change the Israeli gov. in our day & age!
Sam2 -“Health: I was disputing your point that we always Pasken like the Rov, not what happens in this particular case.”
I never said “always”; don’t put words in my mouth!
“Also, there was not a formal vote against Rav Kook of all the Halachic decisors like in the time of Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel.”
There was no vote but they specifically said you shouldn’t listen to him!
Health,
1. Again I dispute oyur contention that most gedolim disagreed with Rav Kook.
2. Virtually all gedolim today hold that one should vote.
Avi K -“Health,
1. Again I dispute oyur contention that most gedolim disagreed with Rav Kook.”
I’m sorry that simply isn’t the fact, no matter how many times you repeat it!
“2. Virtually all gedolim today hold that one should vote.”
I already explained this -there is no specific Mitzva to vote, just a general Mitzva to support Yeshivos!
Just a follow up to the discussion about Rav Ada’s actions described in Brachos daf chof omud alef. I looked at a few more sources, and concluded that there are three schools of thought and interpretation. One is as mdd wrote, that the woman who turned out to be not Jewish, was wearing red, which is interpreted by some as being untznius, and so Rav Ada tore it from her. The second, is the interpretation of Rashi as explained by the Maharshal, is that the woman was wearing a very expensive garment, and Rav Ada thought it was gaiva and not pritzus to be wearing it. The third one I found is brought by Rav Adin Shteinzaltz, who found sources indicating that the karbolta that the woman was wearing was a garment known to be made of shatnez, and that is why he tore it from her.
The one element of the “pritzus” argument that no one mentioned here and would be impossible to contemplate Rav Ada doing, is that a man ripping a garment off of a woman would create an even bigger problem of tznius and the woman would be more, not less exposed.
In any case this demonstrates conclusively that far from it being “obvious” that the gemoro was talking about pritzus, an Acharon explains a Rishon as saying it has absolutely nothing to do with pritzus, and one of the greatest gemoro scholars of the last century says it also has nothing to do with pritzus.
Health,
1. We can say “yes”, “no” forever.
2. Many gedolim even endorse specific political parties. Not only to support yeshivot but to promote their interpretations of Judaism in general.
Avi K -“2. Many gedolim even endorse specific political parties. Not only to support yeshivot but to promote their interpretations of Judaism in general.”
Don’t mix politics with Halacha!
“1. We can say “yes”, “no” forever.”
No, we can’t. One day Hashem will reveal the truth. By that time, the ones who are Not on the side of truth will lose. It will be too late for them. I’m almost 100% confident that I’m on the right side! G’luck to you -you’re gonna need it!
“No, we can’t. One day Hashem will reveal the truth. By that time, the ones who are Not on the side of truth will lose. It will be too late for them. I’m almost 100% confident that I’m on the right side! G’luck to you -you’re gonna need it!”
Health: That’s the way that sectarians like the Essenes viewed Judaism. We hold of Eilu V’eilu Divrei Elokim Chayim. So long as someone is Oved Hashem B’chol Kocho and does what he thinks is what Hashem wants through his Mesorah and his understanding of Torah Sheba’al Peh then HKBH views it as if he did everything right, regardless of what will be Paskened in Yemos Hamashiach.
Sam2 -“Health: That’s the way that sectarians like the Essenes viewed Judaism. We hold of Eilu V’eilu Divrei Elokim Chayim. So long as someone is Oved Hashem B’chol Kocho and does what he thinks is what Hashem wants through his Mesorah and his understanding of Torah Sheba’al Peh then HKBH views it as if he did everything right, regardless of what will be Paskened in Yemos Hamashiach.”
I’m actually surprised at you for such a comment. We don’t always say Eilu V’eilu etc. and you know it! Maybe R. Kook himself can say that about why he held the way he held, but noone else! Anybody following his Shitta is going against the Rov and you can’t give an excuse -I listened to the Miyut because of Eilu V’eilu etc.!
Avi K.: “80% of Am Yisrael refused to leave Egypt and died in the Plague of Darkness. Even after seeing all of the signs and wonders ten out of twelve gedolei hador opposed Zionism. Only a small number of social outcasts who had nothing to seek in Bavel joined Ezra and Nehemia’s Zioinist movement.”
So you’re comparing Moshe and Aharon, Ezra and Nechemya, to ?????? ??? ?????? HERZL? And Zionism to ??? ????! Are you out of your mind?
Health: A Talmid of Rav Kook’s can hold like him, even against the Rov.
The guys kids got baptized and married goyim. Is that mifurash in your S”A? (Lidaytcha that Hashem only opposes things that are written in a s’if and theres no concept of spirit of the law.) get a grip.
Sam2 -“Health: A Talmid of Rav Kook’s can hold like him, even against the Rov.”
So are there any posters here that learnt by him? C’mon gimme a break!
Ms, Yiftach bedoro keShmuel bedoro. Read Rav Kook’s hesped on Herzl, “Misped b’Yerushalayim” printed in “Maamarei HaRaya”.
Toi,
1. Only one of Herzl’s children was baptized. He committed suicide, apparently as a result of emotional problems, after leaving a note doing teshuva gemura on his apostasy. BTW, Rabbenu Gershom also had a son who was a meshumad (I presume to Natzrut although it is not specified). This is brought down in the Hagahot Oshri on Moed Katan Perek 3. So this proves nothing about the parents.
2.How do explain the talmudic principles “naval beresut haTora” .
Health: Now you’re being silly and you know it. Did any of us learn by the Mishnah Brurah or Rav Moshe (well, some of us may have learned by R’ Moshe). Nowadays you can be someone’s Talmid without learning directly from them. Rav Kook has many Talmidim Muvhakim nowadays. That’s not really a disputable fact.
And lets say only one of your kids gets baptized. still so pareve on the matter? You are trying to further the agenda of a man who hated torah and HKB”H. And any taaneh you bring from Rav Kook will be answered the same way that R Gifter answered his deviation from standard torah haskafa- that he went crazy from his ahavas yisroel. Thus, you cannot bring a rayye from him. Open your eyes to the words of the gedolim from the last 60 years, the ones who saw the medina, what it stood for and continues to stand for, and based there decision accordingly. The gedolim who died before there ideals came to fruition would be appalled at what you think they advocated for.
Sam2 – Sorry taking on s/o’s Shitta about one thing doesn’t make you a Talmid. I forgot what it is , but a poster asked s/o here if they did some Chumra that R. Kook had and he didn’t answer. If you’re a Talmid -you follow all his Shittos, not pick & choose!
So why not follow “Rabbis” M. Mendelson, Stephen Wise, Solomon Schechter and their ilk? After all, Yiftach bedoro keShmuel bedoro!
Good point Health. Rav Kook held that women shouldn’t run for or be placed in public office. He has an officially published psak in his sefer that women shouldnt even vote! And his tznius standards for women were as strict as Satmar. Do all those promoting his shitta on Zionism accept these shittas of his too? Or are those simply unpalatable despite being Rav Kook’s position yet his position on Zionism neatly fits their agenda despite the hypocricy.
msseeker:
The Bach, Bais Shammai, the Ibn Ezra, etc. should be the list. 😉 All people who we basically never pasken or hold of, but are somebodies. The question is not why do you not choose someone who is not even Yiftach!
Its never a good idea to judge a person by their decendents
the Taz decendents include the NON-JEWS Gwewneth Paltrow and Gabrile Giffords
Rav Shach has non-religious grandchildren and great-grandchildren
Moshe Rabbeinu had a grandchild who worshipped A”Z. This should teach us to never judge someone by their descendants.
ok ill concede- judge him on his anti-torah way of life and values. judge him on the colossal tragedy that he caused in klal yisroel. forget the shaigitz.
GAW, is there a typo in your post? I can’t make heads or tails of the last sentence. I hope you didn’t mean to put Herzl or even Kook in the same league as The Bach, Bais Shammai, the Ibn Ezra, etc.
A Rav went to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach asking for an approbation on his sefer.
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach REFUSED to give the approbation because the Rav had said disrepectful things about Rav Kook.
Rav Chaim Sonnenfeld also refused to give approbations to someone who had said disrectful things about Rav Kook.
I am surprised the Mods allowed such lack of Kavod to Rav Kook, I dont think such a similar statement would have been allowed for any other Rav.
When Rav Shlomo Zalman was a bachur he went every Shabbat to a public seuda shelisheet and derasha Rav Kuk held. Rav Kuk was also his messader kiddushin (and BTW was elected rav of Yerushalayim by a majority of the shuls and yeshivot). Rav Eliashiv, whose grandfather, the Leshem Shelo veAchlama, was Rav Kuk’s rebbe in nistar and whose father-in-law was Rav Kuk’s talmid-chaver Rav Arye Levine,called Rav Kuk a gaon olam.
Regarding Yiftach, despite the fact that he had many drawbacks (and was strongly criticized by Chazal in the Gemara and Midrashim) was the leader Am Yisrael needed at the time (Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz, “Reb Chaim’s Discourses” pg. 271 quoted in “Insights” by Rabbi Saul Weiss vol. 2 pg. 162 #708). So too Herzl, despite his shortcomings was the leader who was needed. Anyone who is a political leader in Am Yisrael, even the lightest of the light, is like the greatest of knights (Rosh HaShana 25b and see Maharsha).
Perhaps because no other rav ever wrote that football players are ???? the ?????.
I don’t understand what the big deal is. Everyone knows Rav Kook was a big talmid chacham and an illuy. All of us together don’t equal a fraction of his yidiyas haTorah.
All the stories of Rav Kook’s interaction with the other gedolim are just that, stories. Not that they are not true, but that they don’t give indication of what the gedolim held of his shitos just of how they treated him.
The fact is that we don’t hold of his deyos and shitos. There is practically unanimous and uniform nonacceptance of his shitos- and this is not arbitrary it is the shitah of chareidi gedolim in certain areas Rav Kook is not a man d’amar.
That doesn’t mean he’s not a talmid chacham. But it means that his shitah in zionism is completely irrelevant for those of us who follow chareidi gedolim.
Toi, which colossal tragedy did he cause?
Avi K, are you Orthodox? Is this really how DL/MO see Herzl? I’m appalled. I thought he was seen as a necessary evil at best. How is your twisted thinking and brazen misinterpretations of Chazal different from Reform or Conservative rationalizations?
Avi K.,
I must protest your comparison.
Although Yiftach was certainly not on the level of other leaders, he was no rasha like Hertzl.
Msseeker, what he meant is that developing a healthy body also develops one’s spiritual abilities. We are a combination a guf and neshama and the health of one is dependent on the health of the other.
Derech, WE do hold by his deyot and sheetot. Your statement about non-acceptance is circular – you say that he is not accepted by those who do not acept him. BTW, by saying that his sheetot are irrelevant you are guaranteeing that in the end your sheeta will not be the Halacha (Eruvin 13b).
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