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Avi: I assume #4 and on were directed to me.
Sam: the Rambam Issurei Biah 21:1-2 equates Histaklus and singing to other Issurim of Lo Sikravu.
sam: “I have meticulously studied every Makor R’ Moshe quotes there. I still do not understand how he came to his conclusion”
can you please elaborate. I think his Teshuva is very logical and would be happy to help you
Hello; No, I have said before that I will not address this T’shuvah. You are very, very learned, but Bimchilas K’vodcha I have discussed it with those greater than you and still do not understand it.
Sam: Those greater that attempted to explain it to you didn’t understand it themselves, didn’t agree with it, or you couldn’t comprehend their explanation?
I also think that the teshuva is very straightforward. The boy wanted to go out with a certain girl and perhaps was already going out with her as the introduction states that his rabbonim had tried to speak to him about it. The boy claimed that they were not over on negiah or yichud but never claimed that it was merely platonic (“reut” implies a closer relationship). “Chibba” means affection. This is, in fact, clear from the Shach in YD 157:10, where he talks about “negia derech chibba” (he specifically brings the case in the Gemara of a man who fell in love with an eshet ish) and 159:20, where he uses the term “derech chibba vetaavat biah” (as you implied, the Shach brings that there is a machloket Rishonim regarding whether this is d’Oraita or derabbannan). Rav Moshe also stated explicitly that if the boy wanted a platonic friendship he would seek out other boys (although it is true that many other rabbanim have stated that even if it does start as a platonic friendship it will perforce lead to something more, especially among teenagers). He then went on to say that even if they are not now over on yichud or negiah one thing will lead to another (thus according to the opinion that it is derabbana it is a fence around the Tora).
I have said several times that I won’t address this T’shuvah. Please stop bothering me about it before I say something that I regret.
Avi K -“Health,
1. An individual soldier will not hear the same singer “all of the time”. He will not even hear singers all of the time. Only here and there when his unit is sent to the ceremony. There is about as much chance of him deloping a friendship with her as there is of someone developing a friendship with one of the Republican contenders by going to a debate.”
What Sheker! If you said this about the Chief Rabbi -I’d probably agree. But a soldier?? He will never see her in the army camp or training somewhere -yea right?! It’s a good possibility he will.
“2. Only rabbanim associated with microscopic groups like the Eida HaChareidit and NK (if they are considered a Jewish group and not a breakaway, heretical sect) assur voting. All of the rest hold that it is a mitzva. Some even support specific parties.”
Wrong again. The Brisker Rov was against it. Go back to sleep!
“3. How is it easier to be frum in America? Everything is according to the Goyish calendar. To get off for Shabbat or Yom Tov you have to put in a special request. You can’t even write the Jewish date on a check. There are no mitzvot taluyot baAretz. Ramban, in fact, states that there are only mitzvot in Tumaland in order to practice for Eretz Yisrael.”
I wasn’t talking about convenience; I was talking about being brainwashed with Heretic philosophies like you are!
Raphael Kaufman -“Health, you seem to have missed an important nekudah of the mashul. You are correct that the bal agala is the main actor, but the horse and wagon are necessary and should also be shown “appreciation” in the form of care and maintenance. Horeses especially are living creatures with enough intelligence to understand extra care, a kind word and a pat on the neck. Soldiers deserve at least as much appreciation as one would give a faithful horse.”
This is true, but who gives this Hakaros Hatov? Not the paying passenger -he just has Hakoras Hatov to the Driver. The driver & bus company reward the horse or bus. The Bnei Torah are the paying passengers.
“Another Item. Without disputing the issue, I take exception to the use of the term “yeharog v’al ya’avor” applied to issurim simply as an exclamation point. Yeharog v’al ya’avor is reserved for the most severe issurim, I.E. the Big Three (or any issurim b’shas hashmad). To apply the term to other issurim which, while serious, don’t really rise to the level of ultimate sacrifice does not so much reinforce the severity of the infraction as it deminishes the value of of that sacrifice. I am ready to lay down my life rather than allow myself to be forced to cross myself, or kill a fellow Jew (such cases actually happened in the Shoah), or commit incest. Should I really be ready to do the same to avoid hearing a woman sing, or use the internet, etc.?”
This wasn’t an exclamation point. You are Ignorant of the Halacha. The Halacha is any derivative of the big 3 Aveiros is also included in the Din of Yeharog V’al Ya’avor. This is called Abizreihu.
So this is why this discussion/argument is very heated.
A lot of posters here hold that women singing is Ossur because it comes from Giluy Arayos and therefore you must allow yourself to be killed rather than hear women sing, esp. for no reason like here. A few hold singing isn’t so bad. The reason we on the other side are very against this is because we don’t feel they mean it -just that they want to join the army and if they agreed that we were right -they would not be able to join for even a simple thing like singing!
AinOhdMilvado -“I agree one can do business with goyim, but YOU seem to feel that Tziyonim are WORSE than goyim, that they are the enemies of Torah Jews. If you feel they are SO detestable, and your numerous comments indicate that you DO, you should NOT do business with them any more than you would do business with skinheads or klansmen (who are obviously also worse than stam goyim). Therefore, you should not put yourself in a position (by being in Eretz Yisrael) of having to use the services of the Tziyonim whether you pay for it or not. That goes for EVERYTHING, from the control tower Tziyonim at the airport that enable your plane to land, to the roads you use to get places, to all the other items I mentioned above, not the least of which is the IDF which allows you to stay alive with your throat un-slit. (Certainly you don’t think YOU have greater zechusim for divine protection than the yeshiva students in Chevron in 1929!?!)”
I already posted that might be my personal feeling and I actually haven’t been to EY in quite a long time. But you seemed to skip the part of where I posted that so far No Godol has gone that far.
So right now -I’ll be Mevatel my Daas to the Gedolim who seem to think that Tzionim are no better or worse than Goyim!
“You wrote: “I agree; but where is this Sinah eminating from?????”
Look in the mirror.”
And this I’m proud of! It’s a Mitzva to hate Reshayim like the Tzionim!
Avi K -“There is also an issue of always following the mara d’atra – in this case the IDF Chief Rabbi.”
This IDF Rabbi seems to base his Psak on the PC thing to do. Even the former IDF Chief Rabbi said they shouldn’t force them to be there during the singing!
Health, you are over on dan bekaf zechut. Are you bochen kelayot velev? As for the former IDF Chief Rabbi’s postition, is this the first time you have encountered a disagreement among rabbanim?
Are you at least willing to discuss the Rambam I cited?
@Avi K –
“2. Only rabbanim associated with microscopic groups like the Eida HaChareidit and NK (if they are considered a Jewish group and not a breakaway, heretical sect) assur voting. All of the rest hold that it is a mitzva. Some even support specific parties.”
Typical Zionism, denouncing the Edah as “microscopic”. I really shouldn’t mention it, but it is simply pathetic, IMHO, to say such things. Satmar alone accounts for tens of thousands; then we have all the other groups affiliated. Based on what, exactly, would you call the combined forces of Satmar, Toldos Aharon, Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok, Dushinsky, Neturei Karta, Spinka, Pshevorsk, the Brisker and Breslover groups that are with the Edah, and numerous others I won’t mention in E”Y and in America…. microscopic?!
Health…
I’m sure you will be happy to hear that this is my final comment on this subject.
It is simply this…
I know you think that you are a very holy Yid and that your kedusha is enhanced by your hatred of Tziyonim. First of all, many Tziyonim are shomrai Torah and mitzvot and tremendous yirai shamayim. I have given my definition of Zionism on another thread many weeks ago so I won’t go into it here at length. Suffice it to say that for me, and most frum Zionists, Zionism is simply the national component of Yiddishkeit. HaSh-m gave us a Torah that relates to every part and aspect of our life. One of those aspects is the national, geographic, aspect, and that means that every Jew (if they can’t for some very good reason, LIVE in Eretz Yisrael) should, at the very least, ASPIRE to live in Eretz Yisrael. The fact that there are, sadly, many non-frum, and even anti-frum Zionists, does not change one iota the national component of authentic Torah Judaism.
I truly feel sorry for you because there is an entire dimension of Yiddishkeit that you are not aware of. If you are honest with yourself, though you may say you want mashiach to come, and perhaps even mean it, – even AFTER mashiach comes, you would be totally content to spend the rest of your life here in America.
Just as a person who was totally blind from birth can have no appreciation or understanding of colors, you (and many others) despite all your Torah education, have no understanding of the national component of Judaism. This is truly tragic, and truly saddens me. I know I have not succeeded in enlightening you, but I do hope that you will encounter someone, BEFORE mashiach’s imminent arrival, who WILL enlighten you to the fact that Jewish life in galus, regardless of how frum you are, is missing a major dimension. I also hope you will work on eliminating the sinah you have for other Jews who do not think like you do. – Hatzlacha.
CG, while I agree with you that whatever it is, the Eidah and its allies are something more than microscopic, I must take issue with you on a number of levels. First, you talk of “typical Zionism”. Do you really think that there is no difference between the Zionism of yeshiva bochrim at Mercaz Harav and chiloni kibbutzniks in the Galil? Or between the Zionism of Orthodox officers like Palsar Nachal platoon commander Daniel Mandel HYD who gave his life capturing an Al Aksa terrorist in 2003 and the Zionism of the bartender at Mike’s Place in Tel Aviv? There is tremendous difference even though there are some commonalities.
One of those commonalities, and one that they share with millions of Jews around the world, frum and not frum, Zionist and not Zionist is not that they see the Edah as microscopic – it’s that they see the Edah as irrelevant to mainstream Jewish life and mainstream frum life except when they are seeking headlines by stoning cars, Police, and buses, or dressing their children up in stripes and yellow stars, or, occasionally, when they come to Diaspora cities as meshulochim. One cannot build a society and a reputation on cutting themselves off from the tzibur and then expect the tzibur to listen to them or be beholden to them. But they don’t seem to understand that. I spoke with one meshuloch who told me he can’t understand why he has fewer and fewer consistent givers in chutz laaretz, among the whole spectrum of the community, even from the very frum, even after being told that there is blowback from the actions of the Edah.
CG, all these groups put together make up a microscopic portion f the Jewish people. With the exception of the Badatz hashgacha (which is not acceptable to Sephardi chareidim who have their own hechsherim)nobody with the exception of journalists looking to flll space and other Charedi groups who fight with them from time to time.(Belz once put the Eida in cherem and the Yeshivish wing was angered by their attacks on Rav Eliashiv) pays much attention to them.
Hello: It would seem to me that, according to the Rambam at least, seeing a non-Tznius woman is an Abizraihu of Giluy Arayos. That is a very good point that you make. I don’t know if that’s Muskam to everyone, but the Rambam does seem to connect them. (Though his wording is interesting; why is there no Makas Mardus on Kol or S’ar? Are those a lower D’rabannan? A slightly different type of Issur? There can be what to say on that, but Pashtus is like you said.) And no, I’m not scared of being proven wrong and I never said that I disregard that T’shuvah.
AOM – I understand your point, BUT this nationalism, Yishuv Haaretz or whatever -is only after Moshiach comes. Doing it beforehand creates many problems as you can see from these posts alone. This new idea pushes off the coming of Moshiach. “Chodosh Ossur Min Hatorah!”
AinOhdMilvado, great post!
Avi K -“Health, you are over on dan bekaf zechut. Are you bochen kelayot velev? As for the former IDF Chief Rabbi’s postition, is this the first time you have encountered a disagreement among rabbanim?”
I’m not Mechuyav to be Dan s/o L’caf Zecus who totally disregards Halacha. Now if there was just a Machlokes between the Charedi camp & the Mizrachi (MO) camp – then you could say “Aylu Vaylu”. But all the opinions from the Mizrachi camp is that this is Ossur Gomor and this guy is the only one who says Mutter for soldiers -I was wondering Why?
I think it is safe to say that if anyone writing on this topic is thinking about joining the IDF, they would consult their Rav. So, if mine would say, go for it, and yours would say hell no, I dont see the problem. I will follow my Rav, and you will follow yours. Unless one wants to get into the very childish game of my Rav is bigger than yours, the discussion should end with this.
As an aside, I am wondering what the teshuva of R’ Moshe on “social dating” (platonic relationships with members of the opposite gender) has to do with sitting through a female member of the IDF singing hatikva (or its howdy doody time). I think a more appropriate teshuva would be the one that appears in the newest volume where he reconciles the issur lihistakel afilu bietzba ketana and the fact that there is no requirement for a woman to cover over certain limbs, depsite this issur. I’m not anyones Rav and see no reason to elaborate further. Anyone who has any questions in halacha would be best served by speaking to their Rav instead of the poskei CR.
Health: You can’t just dismiss anyone you disagree with as “totally disregards Halachah”. The IDF Chief Rabbi is a Bar Hachi of having an opinion and is entitled to Pasken how he thinks is right.
Health,
1. I have already posted several reasons for being meikal and it has been noted that Rav Ovadia and other rabbanim were personally meikal.
2. If there a machlokot within the Chareidi camp (which is not just Aguda) why shouldn’t there be within the National Religious camp (which is not just Mizrachi)?
Sam: if you want a source with a radically different approach to Reb Moshe’s regarding the definition of “Derech Chiba”, see the Ezer MiKodesh at the beginning of Even HaEzer Siman 20. I will not post what he says on a public forum because it could easily lead to a Michshol.
Hello: The most radically different opinion on such a topic, which is probably Pashut P’shat but also probably the less Muskam opinion among the Poskim, is found in the SHU”T B’nei Banim (I think Chelek 1; I also think he’s very similar to the Ezer Mikodesh, if I recall correct what the E”M says).
Sanm it is indeed in Chelek 1 – in Siman 37. The teshuva can be read on-line at http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20021&st=&pgnum=119 (at the bottom of the page).
In any case, everyone agrees that it is prohibited. The only question is is it because of lo tikravu and yehareg uval yaavor or derabbanan because of a fence and devarim mechuarim, in which case it is not yehareg uval yaavor.
Sorry, I meant Sam.
Sam2 -“Health: You can’t just dismiss anyone you disagree with as “totally disregards Halachah”. The IDF Chief Rabbi is a Bar Hachi of having an opinion and is entitled to Pasken how he thinks is right.”
I don’t know if you read all my posts or just some of them or parts of them. The issue here is that Not one MO Rabbi or Mizrachi Rabbi said “Mutter”. Let me give you a Moshul – The Burger King on your corner is a great eatery. All of a sudden a Rabbi says e/o should eat there. You see no change in the place, no Tzetetlach hanging; the same cheeseburgers as before. You don’t have to be Dan this Rabbi L’caf Zecus. He has to explain what he said is true. He would have to say – a group went in -in the middle of the night -Kashered the whole place. Now everything is Glatt and the cheese is fake and a Kashrus sign will be up next week. If he doesn’t explain this -I have no reason to think this is the case. As a matter of fact I would not be allowed to say in this case -“I’m going to eat there because Eid Echad Neeman etc.”
The same thing here -one Rabbi got up and said “Mutter”. If he wants to be taken seriously -he has to explain Why! Since he didn’t – I don’t have to think his opinion is based solely on Halacha. I was trying to come up with other reasons -why he said what he did!
Avi K -You by far are one of the biggest Con men we have posting. I never seen s/o twist things around as much as you!
“1. I have already posted several reasons for being meikal and it has been noted that Rav Ovadia and other rabbanim were personally meikal.”
And Not one of your reasons Holds any water. In other words – nothing you said made any sense!
And I already posted that those Rabbonim that are Meikel for themselves are much different than any soldier. Soldiers will start noticing the singers!
“2. If there a machlokot within the Chareidi camp (which is not just Aguda) why shouldn’t there be within the National Religious camp (which is not just Mizrachi)?”
What are you talking about? What argument regarding singing is there amongst the Charedi camp?
BTW, I heard that both Rav Shimon Schwab and his brother asked about shaking hands with a woman. One was told “muttar” and the other was told “yehareg uval yaavor”. However, as I have posted before, a pesak lemaaseh takes into account all of the factors involved. This is the source of the machloket regarding listening to women singers at IDF ceremonies.
Everyone wants to live in Eretz Yisroel. I don’t want to live anywhere else. We ask Hashem multiple times every day to bring us back to Eretz Yisroel, to restore Yerushalayim.
But that’s the point – we ask Hashem to bring us back. And until the time has come, there is nothing we can do. If people are able to go to E”Y on their own and live happy and healthy lives there, then by all means they should do so.
I recall what the Satmar Rav wrote in Dibros Kodesh: they, the (religious) Zionists, should not be telling us that we lack chibas haaretz. They have no idea what that means.
I’ll let this rest… My blood pressure is already too high. There is no point in continuing this discussion.
There is a story about a Jew who was standing on his roof waiting for Hashem to save him from a flood. He declined the offers of a helicopter pilot and boatsman saying that he had perfect faith that Hashem would save him and therefore he did not need them and, in fact, they were threatening his emuna. After he drowned he asked Hashem why He didn’t save him. Hashem said: “Idiot! Who do you think sent the helicopter and the boat?”
Avi and Sam: the Ezer MiKodesh is earlier, more reliable and much more radical. but thanks for the Mareh Makom
Reb Moshe writes in 4 different places that shaking hands is forbidden.
Hello: More radical? I must be thinking of something else then. This sounds like an interesting Shittah. I’ll have to look it up then. And just curious, but what do you mean more reliable? You mean simply because he’s earlier and already more accepted or do you have something against R’ Yehudah Hertzel?
Avi K -“This is the source of the machloket regarding listening to women singers at IDF ceremonies.”
Just so you know – one so-called Rabbi in the IDF saying Mutter and every single other MO Rabbi saying Ossur, doesn’t make it a Machlokes! If it was every MO Rabbi saying one thing and every Charedi Rabbi saying another, then this would be a Machlokes!
Hello,
1. Only one of the biggest? Who are my competitors? LOL
2. That is your opinion. Obviously others disagree with you. (gasp)
3. I did not write that there is a machloket about singing in the Chareidi “camp”. I wrote that there are machlokets. Do you deny this?
4. You’re welcome.
5. Can you list the marei mekomot for Rav Moshe’s pesak regarding shaking hands with a woman? I remember learning one where he pointed out that Orthodox rabbanim in Germany shook hands with male and female congregants on Shabbat evenings and wished the “gut Shabbos”. He says that they were probably relying on it not being chibba. The botoom line is that it is good to be machmir as one might derive pleasure from the contact. This is less than an outright “assur”.
6. Why does there have to be uniformity within a “camp”. Is there party and coalition discipline in Halacha as in parliamentary systems?
7. While we are on the subject, learn Rav Kook’s essay “Massa HaMachanot” printed in “Maamarei HaRaya” where he decries the existence of camps (in his time there were only: chareidim and chofshiim) as preventing teshuva.
sam: let’s just say I already mentioned “earlier” as a separate factor
1)Living in Eretz Yisrael is a big mitzva.2)Supporting an anti-God,anti-torah government is a big aveira.3)Living in Eretz Yisrael today supports an anti-God,anti-torah government(directly or indirectly).Conclusion: Living in Eretz Yisrael today is a mitzva haba’a b’aveira. I love Eretz Yisrael very much but Hashem has determined that at present we are not worthy of living in that holy place. We should be machnia ourselves to the will of Hashem instead of doing what we want and building a shitah around our own ‘holy’ desires. Umalchus zadon meheira tiaker us’shaber…
Avi K -“3. I did not write that there is a machloket about singing in the Chareidi “camp”. I wrote that there are machlokets. Do you deny this?”
No, but what does Machlokes anywhere have to do with this?
Your points are getting less & less coherent!
“6. Why does there have to be uniformity within a “camp”. Is there party and coalition discipline in Halacha as in parliamentary systems?”
Noone said this! Where did you make this up from?
“7. While we are on the subject, learn Rav Kook’s essay “Massa HaMachanot” printed in “Maamarei HaRaya” where he decries the existence of camps (in his time there were only: chareidim and chofshiim) as preventing teshuva.”
You seem to have a problem with the concept of Rov (Many). Almost No other Godol agrees with Rav Kook. Maybe that’s what K in Avi K stands for – Kook. Even if you are a descendent and perhaps it’s your Mesorah -noone else can listen to him – he is a Daas Yochid who disagrees with many, many Gedolim. So stop pushing his Shittos on e/o else!
Health: Just because a minority held like Rav Kook’s Shittos on Eretz Yisrael and Zionism doesn’t meant that you can reject everything he said out of hand.
Health,
1. You wrote that only a machloket between the Chreidim and National Religious is a machloket. This implies that you hold that within a camp there must be uniformity.
2. I dispute your statement that the majority opposed Rav Kook. BTW, the Satmar Rebbe admitted that he was a daat yachid but said that being that others did not sit down and learn it out with him he was not obligated to change his opinion.
3. Hallevai. However, I cannot claim descent from him. At most I might be a nitzotz of one of his talmidim. However, I thank you for the tremendous compliment.
4. I am not “pushing” my sheeta on anyone. I am expounding it.
From the thread on smoking:
Health says:
When someone here decides to give me a check or cash. I have no professional responsibilty to anyone here. I’m free here to state my own opinions, whether others agree with me or not!
So am I.
Sam2 -“Health: Just because a minority held like Rav Kook’s Shittos on Eretz Yisrael and Zionism doesn’t meant that you can reject everything he said out of hand.”
You can when it comes to the State of Israel!
Avi K -“1. You wrote that only a machloket between the Chreidim and National Religious is a machloket. This implies that you hold that within a camp there must be uniformity.”
I never wrote that. You misunderstood my post.
“2. I dispute your statement that the majority opposed Rav Kook. BTW, the Satmar Rebbe admitted that he was a daat yachid but said that being that others did not sit down and learn it out with him he was not obligated to change his opinion.”
Another lie. While most didn’t go as far as Satmar, almost e/o didn’t agree with Rav Kook!
Avi K -“From the thread on smoking:
Health says:
When someone here decides to give me a check or cash. I have no professional responsibilty to anyone here. I’m free here to state my own opinions, whether others agree with me or not!
So am I.”
Yes -you do have Bechira in this world, but you will have to answer (after 120) for all your defending of Kefira (Medina) that you posted here!
refer to my comments above. the truth hurts.
Actually the Satmar Rebbe’s opinion is the minority
Health a view isn’t kefira just because you prefer the position of certain rabbonim (a minority, I might add) to those who hold otherwise. As for having to face di v’cheshon biz 120, remember that you also will have to face the Beis Din shel Ma’alah. Are you ready?
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