Rav Elyashev Bans Nachal Chareidi

So, you equate the spitter with pinchas?

mdd, Pinchos ben Elazar took two lives – of a Jewish sinner and a non Jewish woman not bound by torah; he did it knowing with the ruach hakodesh he had that it was a seminal turning point, and that Moshe Rabeinu was not in a position at that moment to stop the sinning among b’nei Yisroel. He willingly gave up that part of the neshomo that is torn when one takes a life, even for a valid reason. HKBH granted him a special brocho, of shleimus, which he had given up, “hineni nosain lo es brisi sholom” to make him complete once again. Do not presume for even a second to be on the madreiga of the grandson of Aharon, of one of the holiest people who ever lived. Do not presume to have the insight or the hashpo’os that he had that informed his decision making. Do not presume that because he was a kanoi, it is a free pass for anyone who believes he is upholding torah to do anything they feel they should. That is a base misuse and abuse of Torah.

mdd: learn shanhedrin 81B for kani laws(not so simple).

Has this “ban” been corroborated by any other source?

This is the type of story that a secular press would be all over with provocative headlines and even more provocative “reporting”.

Popa, anything which is needed for the morale of the troops is part of pikuach nefesh. Obviously there was a reason why a distinction was made between ceremonies and entertainment.

Utter hogwash.

And factually inaccurate anyway, since the Chief of Staff said it was to make a point about feminism.

As for heterim, read Rabbi Bleich’s article on the subject in Contemporary Halachic Problems (offhand I do not remeber if it is in vol. 1 or 2 but you might benefit from both volumes).

oooh. The big talmid chochom has read a couple of English books. He’s read volumes 1 and 2.

You know, if you actually did a little bit of real learning, you’d know how ridiculous you sound, pulling heterim out of your tuches, that are completely inapplicable.

Yihusdic, drei nit ken kup !Do not give me all this Kabbalah explanations. The mitsva to give tochecha, stopping sinners apllies to all times! Learn Brochos 20A. The Torah does not change over time. You should be disgusted by all the aveiros. One does not have to be on huge madregos to be moche.

PBA: The interesting part of the end of that is that the Mechaber (and Rambam) says the Oved Kochavim wants to be Ma’avir Al Das. Presumably this is because they couldn’t fathom/it would be incredibly abnormal for a Jew to force this, though the potential Diyuk is interesting (but wrong, I think). I would think that Ad’raba, Sha’as Hashmad might apply since this is a law forcing you to be Over. What makes this so complex is that they (I think) had Poskim Mattir it for them, so it’s hard to call it Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor for some but Muttar for others. Especially because if there is a Heter, then the army is no longer intending to be Ma’avir Al Das.

The Ervah part is interesting. As far as I know, no one says that seeing a non-Tznius woman is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. It’s not a Davar Hamevi Lidei Ervah. Especially by Kol and S’ar, since those seem to be lower than the rest in many Rishonim.

Listening to ladies sing is pikuach nefesh?!?!?!

PBA: That Gemara has 2 Leshonos. According to one Lashon it was clearly a Geder and a Chumra. According to the other there is what to discuss. I think the general assumption is Lekula in such a case, but I’ve never really looked into that in such huge detail.

Whether or not they got a P’sak might not change their intentions, but it might change how we regard them. If they have a legitimate P’sak Lekula, even if they want to be Ma’avir Al Das, presumably the Chillul Hashem aspect goes away, and that is what makes it Yeihareh V’al Ya’avor anyway according to the Rambam (it is not entirely clear to what extent the other Rishonim disagree with that position).

But you are very right. Regardless of if this is actually Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor, since the Israeli army wouldn’t actually kill you for not attending then someone who holds it’s actually Kol Ishah would not be able to attend. (Unless you want to call it a Safek Pikuach Nefesh because in theory the army could call that treason, which is a death penalty offense. I would assume that that is a far too Rachok of a Safek to even qualify. Even if the Israeli army could make that case, there is no way on Earth they actually would.)

mdd, I’ll pardon your ignorance. It’s not kabbalah. It’s a famous vort of the Netziv, and it’s also referenced in the Yerushalmi maseches Sanhedrin. And as far as Toichecha goes, the mekor is in vayikro. Lo tisneh es achicho bilvovcho. Hocheach tochiach es amisecho, velo sisah olov cheit.

“Do not hate your brother in your heart, you shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and incur no sin because of this person.” two things in that posuk which take YOU out of the parsha of giving toichecha. First, there is the fact that to validly give toichecha, you can’t hate your brother in your heart. Judging only from what you have written in this forum, you don’t display that qualification. Secondly, the posuk says “es amisecho”. You want to give toichecho to people who are not your friends or neighbors, who you see as out to destroy your way of life, who in your view are annihilators of Torah. In what twisted world do you think you can consider those people “amisecho”?

Really, MDD, basic stuff.

Sam,

1. There is a similar machloket regarding shaking hands with a woman. Both Rav Shimon Schwaband his brother asked shailot (of different rabbanim). One was told yehareg vealyaavor and the other was told muttar. Regarding an individual this is fine and common but the Army obviously needs a unified pesak. The address is obviously the IDF Chief Rabbi, who is the mara d’atra (so paskened Rav Yaakov Ariel).

2.From the Chief of Staff’s tone (I heard him on the radio) and the fact that he created a stir by making a joke about it I gathered that he does not want this but needs to do it because of pressure from feminists and singers who for some reason feel personally offended. Thus, even if it is assur it is hanaat atzmo.

Regarding giving a heter, many times issurei derabbana are allowed mishum aiva. Here it is even easier as there are heterim which already exist. One is the microphone. The Seridei Esh mentions zemirot and shirei Eretz Yisrael, which might apply to the type of songs sung at military ceremonies (and the purpose of these ceremonies is morale, which is very important to combat soldiers). Another, put forth by Rav Shlomo Aviner, who is not known as a meikal on tzniut, is that any hanaah the soldier receives is against his will and therefore not halachically hanaah. There is a similar sheetta which says that any melacha one is compelled to do on Shabbat is a melacha she’ain tzericha lagufa and therefore according to Rabbi Shimon (according to whom most Rishonim pasken) it is an issur derabbanan. The Chatam Sofer, the Minchat Yitzchak and others use this to allow giving medical treatment to a Goy on Shabbat mishum aiva (Rav Gustman added that the doctor would lose his license and thus be unable to treat Jews). Rav Yosef Carmel of Eretz Chemda posited that walking out would be embarassing the singer in public. Rav Metzger, who himself does not walk out when women sing at ceremonies, said that he takes his mind off her by saying Tehillim to himself (although he added that this is a difficult heter to give to a bachur).

3. The Gemara is talking about an eshet ish. The doctors started with asking to allow him to be with her. This is clearly not allowed even for pikuach nefesh. Later they tried to bargain and went down to a conversation and just seeing her in the altogether. Obviously, this was just an excuse.

Popa, you’re entitled to your opinion, but if you use foul language to make your point, you will not be heard. I’m surprised the mods allowed it. You must learn to convey your message in a respectable manner, without resorting to personal attacks.

I’ll be the judge of when I’ll be heard or not.

Avi sounds like a Talmid Chacham, you owe him respect.

Sounds like is the operative term. Yes, someone sounds like a talmid chochom when they suggest that ??? ???? ?? ???? should allow soldiers to break any ???, and then cites two rambams which he purports support him.

That is why you need a real talmid chochom to show everyone that he is just making stuff up.

You know, I went out on a limb here. Calling someone an am haaretz on the internet is very dangerous, because you have no idea who they are. If someone had called yitayningwut an am haaretz on the “speechless” thread last night, they would have had it stuffed back in their face really hard with cold hard facts. You need to be very certain before you do it.

One last shot before I go for the day:

There is a similar sheetta which says that any melacha one is compelled to do on Shabbat is a melacha she’ain tzericha lagufa and therefore according to Rabbi Shimon (according to whom most Rishonim pasken) it is an issur derabbanan. The Chatam Sofer, the Minchat Yitzchak and others use this to allow giving medical treatment to a Goy on Shabbat mishum aiva (Rav Gustman added that the doctor would lose his license and thus be unable to treat Jews).

lol. Only shabbos has the notion of meleches machsheves. You can’t apply any mleches machsheves principle outside of hilchos shabbos.

“I’ll be the judge of when I’ll be heard or not”

I hear you. Then again, did I have your permission to do so?

Avi K: I watched a video of a Beatles concert and it made me despair of women (and I’m one of them) 🙂

Popa: Not being especially learned in this sort of thing, I’ll stay out of the argument, but frankly, the way you said what you said was definitely not menschlich. Even “hochayach tochiyach,” if that applies here, requires more consideration of the feelings of others.

Popa,

1. The moderator will decide whether or not you are heard on this site.

2. We were talking about yehareg uval yaavor not whether it is prohibited. The rabbis realized that this was a put-on.

3. The point is that an action done under compulsion is not considered an action. See Rambam Hilchot Melachim 10:1 that a Ben Noach is patur when anus because he is not chayav in kiddush Hashem. This is the chiyuv of yehareg uval yaavor (therefore a Jew who does so because of onus is also patur as he is mevatel an asseh).

Sam, I heard that they also sang shirei Eretz Yisrael – which are also praises of Hashem. There are also heterim for other types of songs where there is no intent to get hanaah from her voice as brought down by Rabbi B;leich. Bli neder when I have some more time I will see if the sources are on the Internet.

Wow, MDD, first time I’ve had a direct quote from the Torah called a modernishe zach. There’s a first time for everything I guess.

Even assuming your absurd notion that the Chofetz Chaim would have countenanced the abuse of an 8 year old frum girl, or the throwing of stones (on shabbos) at mechallelei shabbos who are avadeh tinokos shenishbu, or the screaming at a woman seated at the front of a bus, you outdo yourself with your kano-us. Don’t forget, there was more than one person or group called kanoim in our history. There was the kanous of Pinchas, which it would be total azus metzach to assume you are on the madreiga to emulate, and then there is the kanous of the zman churban bayis shaini, exemplifying the outcome of the sinas chinom that destroyed the beis hamikdosh. You may want to be a kanoi like Pinchas, but you sound like a kanoi from the time of the churban.

And BTW, you know that the person you are yelling at is sinning intentionally, how? Does this also apply to children, who have been yelled at as you paskened is mutar, if not always “wise” for months in Beit Shemesh? Are they even of age to be a meizid in anything? And is their parents “sin” appropriate to be moche because they don’t have the same daas Torah as you do? It keeps coming back to sectarianism. We don’t need to worry about the seculars or the reform or the reconstructionists, because before they can do their damage to klal Yisroel, you will have written off (and yelled at) the 75% or more of the orthodox world who holds by a different shitah than you.

You know, you talk about me inventing modernishe reasons. I’m talking about learning a 2000 year old lesson that you are willfully ignoring. Nothing modern about maaseh ovos simon libonim. Smart people, smart Jews, learn from their mistakes, or those of their forebears. You should try it some time.

And no, MDD, you aren’t going to browbeat me into silence like has been done to others on many threads when they seem too unlike you and your confederates in their thoughts and words. And I say this because I love you and every other Jew and it pains me to read words so full of anger and such readiness to pounce on another Jew’s perceived shortcomings. It is time to remember what Hillel hazoken said about Veohavto loreacho komocha. All the rest is commentary. Now go and learn.

I think, it was assur to spit at that girl. Much of the rest of what you said are falsifications of the Torah. Stop dreing up the Torah! The ta’ana of sinas chinam apllies when it is indeed chinam — without a valid al pi Torah reason. That was the problem then, it is still a problem now. However, when someone does real aveiros, it is a different story.

Doswin, he said my words were, and my words were a literal reading of the posuk. And, by the way, I think there is a time and a place to be moche. If someone is a responsible, adult part of your kehilo, and has given reshus to be rebuked – implicitly or explicitly, then I can see it having its place. But to a kid? to someone with a different Rov and a different daas Torah? To someone who doesn’t even understand the concept of daas Torah? That is wrong, misguided, and pointless, and encourages those few seculars who have as little understanding of the concept of sinas chinom as do those few chareidim who have been in the news.

Yichusdik,

And I say this because I love you and every other Jew and it pains me to read words so full of anger and such readiness to pounce on another Jew’s perceived shortcomings.

I just want to let you know that your words seem to come across as anger-filled as well.

Regarding Ee efshar v’lo kam’chaven:

I would venture a guess that the rabbanim consulted on this matter actually advised the IDF to compel everyone to attend in order to create the situation of ee efshar, which is in effect making the issue less problematic. How’s that for a conspiracy theory?

I am doing neither. It isn’t my place to do so, and the gemoro makes clear his tzidkus in other places. What I am saying is that to take him as an example of how to behave, one has to take on the conduct that made him praiseworthy. That is listed in gemoro taanis daf chof omud alef. As I said, if someone is on that madrega, they can do as he did.

Getting back to the topic of kol isha (As I have already posted, no one today knows how to give rebuke. The Chofetz Chaim said that ????? is related to ?????. You have to prove it to him – in a way that he can accept) , there are several reasons to be meikal:

1. They do not have a choice in order to do there military service, which is a great mitzva. Merely being in a place where there is immodesty is muttar for any need (Baba Batra 57b). Rav Aviner posited that an enjoyment one is forced to get is not called an enjoyment.

2. According to many poskim issurei d’rabbanan are allowed ???? ???? (see Responsa Chatam Sofer Vol 2 Yoreh Deah 131 and Mishna Berura 330,8). This, of course, is assuming that kol isha is rabbinic – and there are such sheetot.

3. There are heterim for songs which are not intended for enjoyment (Sedeh Chemed Klalaim Maarechet HaKuf 42 in the name of Divrei Chefetz) and Seridei Esh 2:14. This would certainly apply to the types of songs sung at military ceremonies.

4. There is heter for several people singing together based on ??? ???? ?? ????? (Chatan Sofer Orech Chaim Shaar HaTaharot Yadayim 14).

5. Embarassing the singer in public where the soldier walks out (Rav Carmel).

Thus a rav can certainly allow soldiers to go to such ceremonies. The one to decide is the mara d’atra, the IDF Chief Rabbi (as ruled Rav Yaakov Ariel).

For a general discussion of the issue of kol isha see Contemporary Halachic Problems col. 2 pg. 147.

to take him as an example of how to behave, one has to take on the conduct that made him praiseworthy

Source?

Really? you need a source for common sense? Would you rather say that one can be confident enough in his own tzidkus to give toichecha like Rava Ada while behaving like Resh Lakish before his tshuva?

yichusdik: Comparing other posters to a rasha doesn’t make your opinion any truer. Giving tochacha is a halachic *obligation*.