Rav Elyashev Bans Nachal Chareidi

Did R. Eliyahsev really write this or is it some kannoim posing as him? Practically speaking, what’s the alternative — to continue to live off the frei while making a Chilul HaShem? Why in America people could learn a profession, and everything is fine?

Precisely as WIY says.

This was also one of my primary reasons for leaving EY. I can’t deal with the Israeli chareidi attitude to the outside world any more.

Here in Gateshead, we have plenty of professionals. One respected person is a world-famous professor in mathematics at a university; one of the teachers in the mechina (boys’ high school) is by training a pharmacologist, and the parnes (rosh hakohol) is a realtor.

In EY also, there are certainly circles where working is not regarded as a mortal sin – particularly the chassidishe world. I personally know chassidim who run a makolet or work as plumbers. And I’m not talking ‘weird’ people, but real, serious, Yerushalmi chassidim in Meah Shearim.

Even more – my Rov in E”Y (one of the dayonim of the Badatz of the Edah) and Rebbe both knew I worked in IT, with the internet and with goyim, and NEVER did either of them tell me not to do so.

While having 100% of people in Kollel forever would be amazing, unfortunately people need to earn a living. Or would Rav Eliashiv also be able to provide all chareidi families who consider getting a proper education and job to get out of the poverty with an INCOME to be in kollel?

A violation of the Shalosh Shevuos (assuming that Gemara was even ever meant Halachically) is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor?

Why do the Yissachars always disparage the Zevuluns? After a while the Zevuluns are going to get fed up and break out of the deal. An then no one has any benefit. Its so funny though, while in yeshiva guys always were disparaging of the future “zevulun” guys yet later in life those are the same guys are honored at dinners to bring in the cash. Myself included. As soon an my alma-mater found out I had been successful, all those years of browbeating and booshah went out the window and they wanted to “honor” me at some function so I could bring in the dough. I politely declined.

On a related note, I am very curious as to what would happen if Israel would decide to give up the ghost and abolish itself like the NK would like to see happen. POOF!! no more funding for anything. The money would dry up and then where would the learning be? Its so sad that no one sees the necessity of the symbiotic relationship here and acts accordingly.

I do not believe that Rav Eliashiv wrote this. He knows very well that there is a mitzva to defend Jews and Eretz Yisrael and to do hishtadlut for parnassa. He also knows very well what problems there are in Chareidi communities because boys who are not cut out for learning are not given alternatives.

Health: This is why some people get offended by you. Responding tongue-in-cheek is sometimes fine; sometimes it’s the best way to get your point across. But there’s no reason for name-calling.

I have the utmost respect for the frum oilam that send their sons to the army! First of all they learn the meaning of time-a soldier is given no breaks-dressed and ready in seconds. They learn to be alert, focused, and to use every sense to survive. They get no time off for minyan, they need to wake up extra early. They experience 48 hour days, hikes so difficult with heavy packs, rescuing a fellow Jew, and mixing among all types of Jews, etc.. Any soldier can apply the skills he learned in the army to his Torah learning and we could produce gedolei Hador like we used to have-those who never wasted a minute, who learned with great hasmoda, who cared about their fellow Jew, etc…Incidentally, high commanders in the army are usually from the top Hesder yeshiva students and are very very frum. And in the army, there is great respect for frum people who follow the Torah honestly.

According to the letter it seems that the intention of keeping Charedi people from the average society is the fear that they will be exposed to things and leave Torah and mitzvos. And so I ask you-if those from the top hesder yeshivas serve in the army and leave shomer Torah and mitzvos, why is the chinuch of the Charedi not providing enough chizuk to their own sons to withstand the tests of being part of the general population without compromising their own mitzva observance? Don’t all of the gedolim regularly meet with all kinds of Jews and are not fazed by their different derachim or no derech?

emunah613

Thank you beautifully said!

I have sons in the army, they face tests which are both spiritual and physical and they have grown immeasurably. My youngest in charedi yeshiva was singled out for having brothers serving in the IDF, he got his brothers and some other frum serving soldiers to come and visit, the boys were given chizuk, not insults, praise not abuse. It is all a question of approach, sadly in public many are too nervous to say thank you, but they surely did to the guy who serves in bomb disposal. Yes they thanked him for helping to protect them.

emunah613 -“Furthermore, every real soldier knows that the enemies of Jews are the 70 million non Jews who openly proclaim their intention to wipe Israel and Jews off of the globe. Their entire service is dedicated to hatzolas nefoshos-which overides ALL other mitzvos. Does anyone really believe that if Israel had no army doing its job 24/7 that we could rely solely on our zechusim to have Eretz Yisroel? Hashem needs us to have hishtadlus to protect ourselves. The Charedim are benefiting greatly from the service the army provides, and all they do is vilify the army. ( There are a few charedim who go into the army as rabbis, and are mashgichim in kitchens, and provide counseling and lead tefilla.) I think that a great idea would be if a Charedi gadol would openly and publicly write a letter thanking the Israeli government/army for ensuring that the country is safe and for being so gracious as to allow their population to learn Torah. And make hakarot hatov an agenda. It will be mekarev the secular and maybe they will begin to want to learn something about their heritage.”

You sound like a honest person -so I will give you a honest answer. I’m sure these ideas were given to you by Rabbis. But do you understand the difference between a Rabbi and a Godol?

Our Gedolim hold that it’s Ossur to have anything to do with the Medina where they are directly on top of you. Going to the Army or Nachal Charedi is part of this. If you look in the Chumash it says over and over, it’s Hashem who protects us, not an army.

While you are allowed to make Histadlus -the Torah repeatedly says if you think you are winning because of your own army strength, not only is this Not true but it is a big Aveirah to think so! The Freye Tzionim definitely think this way.

Well what about Hakoras Hatov? The Gedolim have said actually it’s not the way you think -that we owe the gov. of Israel Hakoras Hatov for protecting us and supporting learning of the Torah. The people who don’t learn Torah all the time are the ones who owe Hakoras Hatov to the ones that do. The people who are learning the Torah all the time, like in Kollel, are actually the ones who are protecting all of Israel from destruction!

I know this is a hard concept for an individual to comprehend.

But let me give you a real example that you can comprehend:

Almost daily (off & on) there has been rocket attacks on Israel, mainly in the south. I know Terrorists are retarted, but even the most retarted person can hit their targets at least half the time. Why in the world do they almost never hit anything of value, if not that Hashem doesn’t want them to? Maybe Hashem is doing this because the Jews in Israel have lots and lots of Zecusim and a good portion of these Zecusim come from the learners of the Torah all the time!

Besides INN, have any of the “usual sources” for such bans, announced this? I cant even find this on INN.

Imanonov: No, he did not start it.

There was an uncorraborated media report that he allegedly told an anonymous unidentified individual that it was okay for him to join. But that person was never identified nor was there anything in writing or signed other than a random claim.

Right, health. Rav Shach zt’l agreed with you so much about hakoras hatov and the medina that he paskened to fly the Israeli flag atop ponevitch every yom haatzmaut. get over yourself. elu voelu divrei elokim chayim. enough already with bashing everything and everyone who doesnt think like you. It’s getting tiresome.

I like Israel, and I’m happy we have a state.

But, I’m not about to join an army which is trying to make me do issurim, just for political reasons. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/113594/IDF%3A-Soldiers-Prohibited-From-Leaving-%27Kol-Isha%27-Events.html

I frankly have trouble seeing how a frum person can join an army which plans to force him to be oiver on issurim.

yichusdik – Stop living in your little world of Tzioni Lies.

Rav Shach zt’l, never agreed to any flag flying. If you know anything about Ponevez he was just a hired hand. The Kahnemens are the ones in charge. As matter of fact, it was posted here, that s/o asked him why are the Bochurim protesting when they put up the flag? And he answered if They don’t protest -then we will have to hire protesters to come and protest!

I’ll tell you a story I heard about him secondhand. I’m sure you won’t believe it because you are too brainwashed!

Anyway a guy (Frum) was in the Lebanon war and got shot during his duty. After he got out of the hospital he went to Rav Shach zt’l for a Brocha. I think Rav Shach just told him Hatzlocha -I don’t really remember, but this I definitely remember -the army guy told me that Rav Shach told him -“that you think the war is just being fought on the front in Lebanon, but it’s actually being fought on two fronts and the Bais Medrash is one of them!”

Health: The Ponevezher Rav mandated flying the flag. And Rav Shach used to stand up when his grandson entered the Beis Medrash in his army uniform.

Health,

1. Which gedolim? You remind me of the pashkavillim wroiters who sign “harabbanim shelita”. Which rav? The erev rav? Harav im kulam?

2. Learn Tanach – unless your “gedolim” have banned it as Zionistic. David had an army. Learn Gemara. Just as Yoav needed David, David needed Yoav (Sanhedrin 49a)

3. I doubt very much that Rav Shach stood up just because he liked his grandson. He stood up davka when he was in uniform – he stood up for the uniform.

4. Is it also assur to have dealings with the Medina in order to take or just to give?

5. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (I presume thaty ou have heard of him) used to go to Har Herzl to visit kivrei tzaddikim. He was very machmir that one should violate Shabbat to make things easier for combat soldiers in wartime.

Nachal Charedi has a website. What I know about NC is what they claim about themselves on their site. They claim that they exist to help those found in no mans land. A young man from the charedi/yeshiva world who is out of place in the world he grew up in, with no future prospects. They say it is a religious, social and economic program for these young men who would otherwise flounder in all 3 areas. Does anyone have an alternate program for such young men? The site claims the program is run according to halacha and has the support of “leading gedolim”. Who those gedolim are is not specified, but I suppose is verifiable by asking them. Those who have a problem with this program, did they reach out to its leadership? If yes, what happened that they went to Rav Elyashiv too? Did they tell Rav Elyashiv about any meetings they may have had with them, if not, why not. If they did not address their concerns with those who run the NC program, why not?

R’ Shach also stated that any “yeshiva bocher” who did not learn seriously all day, had no heter not to be in the army.

I totally agree with everything Health has said.

Dr Epharim SHACH had PHD and taught at YU

AOM: Many of the Chareidim who oppose zionism were there before the zionists and before the state. So they never asked for anything. And many (like Brisk and others) do not take financing for their yeshivos and other monies they are legally entitled to.

The problem is loss of control once a bocher enters the army he is no longer under the direct control of his rav/yeshiva but an 19 year old officer, his place of learning looses the income his presence brought

the biggest fear is not those who are not suited for full time study will discover a different world and values. But that the best students will leave the yeshiva and become useful citizens by serving in the army and entering the economic life bringing an end to the cycle of poverty controlled by the yeshiva world.

shmoolik – that is what this is about. all of it, from the mehadrin bus lines to nachal chareidi to the internet to lipa shmeltzer to beit shemesh assaults on 8 year olds. it is ALL about control. Control may be a good thing, if you believe that ol malchus shomayim beins being tachas ol avreichei gedolim, or to be dan lcaf zchus tachas ol gedolai Torah themselves. And the reason so little has been said on these issues, especially the most recent terrible images, is that even though their means are violating Torah, the ends that the rioters want are exactly the same as Daas Torah, as it defines itself or is defined by its yoatzos, so how can they appear to be against outcomes they desire – those being control over the hearts and minds of the chareidi velt- even if the means are abhorrent? Truly there is no simple answer for them, as they see actions that are terrible to achieve outcomes they ultimately want.

Control may also be perceived as a bad thing, and those who want no control at all over any yetzer put themselves outside frumkeit.

My preference is l’chatchila SELF Control, as learned in the system of Torah values we cherish; when you need guidance, though, you must seek it, as the mishna says Asey Lecho Rov. The authority doesn’t appear from thin air – you make it. And it must suit YOU. The mishna doesn’t say Asey LOHEM Rov. Don’t tell others what is das vodin, unless they have taken on the same daas torah as you, and given up their choices to a guide who exercises control as you have done.

Shmoolik, the best bachurim belong in the yeshivos. Your implication that there they are not useful citizens is 100% apikorsus.

Yuchusdic, your “control” theories is pure slander. I do not agree with everything that is going on by the Israeli Chareidim, but it is meant le’shem Shomaim.