Rav Aharon Leib Shteinman tells Yidden to shun secular education

Which part of France is the godol staying in?

Rav Shteinman is Rav Shteinman, but I’m me, and only I can speak for my own personal experiences. Speaking from these personal experiences I feel comfortable saying that its possible to not be on a high enough level to get total sippuk from Torah. A secular education can fill voids. Especially for someone who needs a secular education to support their family.

You don’t need a secular education to learn math. It’s right in the Gemora.

The Vilna Gaon wrote a mathematics book called Ayil Meshulash

are ROB and zdad once again poking fun at a person whos madreiga they can never hope to approach? yes! im not one to do the whole “im being mocheh” thing, really do whatever you want, but do you understand how daft you appear when opining that you know better then one of the undisputed gedolei hador? Edited

Iced-You don’t need a secular education to learn math. It’s right in the Gemora.

Iced please inform where in the gemara you find trigenometry and calculus?

Actually if you had done a basic research on this, this is the real story

He said this in France because in France the government pays religious schools tutions but you must teach a curriculum imposed by the government.

His statement was in response to the curriculum imposed by the French Government (You can teach Torah topics, but you much teach the imposed curriculum)

The real question is, what did r’ shteinman really say to the yidden in france and is that messsage the same one he would tell yidden in england, or belgium or uruguay.

It IS worthwhile to understand what R’ Nehurai is saying, especially since we know that R’ Nehurai is R’ Meir and on the very same daf (kiddushin peh bes amud bes)R’ Meir seems to contradict R’ Nehurai.

musser zoger +1

I think it’s right near the part where pi = 3.0 and sqrt(2) = 1.40

It gets very tiresome to continue hearing the protests of those who want to justify every single word of a Godol. At the risk of being called an ‘apikores” ( I can already hear toi…), the gemoro in berachos makes it very clear that to rely only upon learning Torah DOES NOT WORK! Add to that the words of the mishneh in kiddushin and you have an ironclad instruction by our chachomim that one must work in one’s life. Only people like R’ Shimon ben Yochai (berachos 35B)and R’Nehoroi(kiddushin) can do it but normal people – all us basically- should not rely on other people’s Tseddakah. All the achromin mentioned by Harotzeh…., the Bais Josef and others , allowed us to make our living as klai kodesh but a living one must make.

Today- if one must have secular education for working (and virtually all work today requires that) one cannot just say-don’t study it – because in such a way you condemn people to a life of poverty and living off tsedakkah.

Harotze…..

It is useless to enter into a discussion with the attitude that you have, thast one can never question any word from a Godol. Sure, Rav Shteineman shelita knows the gemoro- sure he knows the mishne in kiddshin. Hoewever,has he- or any other Godol that espouses his views- give an adequate answer to the gemoro’s point?

Has anyone that you know explain where the chiyuv of teaching one’s son a profession disappear? (The shittah of Rav nehoroi is daas jochid and surely not lehalocho). Has anyone ever give you a good answer how you can avoid the obligations of the kessuboh?

What has changed that suddenly, in the last fifty years, we ignore everything that was halocho till now. Do you have any reasonable answer?

Two words. Buki sruki.

I saw an article about this in Haaretz so Im fairly certain this was said and done in France

Also, Harotze…, the Israeli Chareidim hold that being in kollel is an absolute chiyuv for every seriously religious Jew.

I see, mdd. Simply dismiss Rav Shteinman as “one of those Israeli Chareidim”. Yeah, okay.

I am not going to add much to the posters like mdd and others who defend the “old’ shittah.

I have all the respect for Rav Shteineman shelita (contrary to what you may think, harotze…) but ,for the life of me, I don’t know where this “new’ shitta comes from. Until the second world war, kollels were rare- for the best of the best only-and most people worked,even in the heart of Lithuania!. As it was for three thousand years. What happened in the past fifty years to changed this?? Did maaseh bereishis suddenly change?? On another post some time ago, I divulged that I have two sons in kollel, but they are not there forever (one has already taken a post) and if they would not be suitable for some kind of ‘klai kodesh’,of course, they would go to work , like other people.

By asserting (as mdd said) that EVERYONE has to be in kollel forever, you actually diminish the importance of kollel and you are not able to feed those who really should be there adequately.

Lastly, it may very well be that Rav Shteineman shelita is being misquoted by the original poster (OP) and all he said that we must learn more Torah and may not have said anything about not engaging in work.

Has anyone established what the Rosh Yeshiva actually said, not some half baked heresay? Until that point, why debate something he may not have said at all.

Harotze…, again, as was pointed out by RoB, no one ever provided a satisfactory p’shat as to why those Gemoros no longer apply!

harotzeh, if your rabbi told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it? I find it pitiable that you find people using their own brains laughable. Do the talmidei chachamim of our generation have more Torah knowledge than you and me? Certainly. Do they have a better understanding of the world around us? Possibly. But even if Moses himself told you to do something, don’t you think G-d gave you a brain to actually use it and decide if that commandment makes any sense? I completely understand and agree with having a rav and relying on his Torah knowledge for decisions, and when the available choices make sense in my own mind I will of course follow the rav’s. But to listen when what he’s saying is completely counter to everything my brain tells me about the way the world works? Why would I treat the tools G-d gave me with such worthlessness? And frankly, I’m not trying to say anything negative about anyone, but since when is ANYONE in our generation an undisputed leader of klal yisroel?

And as for those complaining about hearing half (or maybe false) quote of R’ Steinman, you’re absolutely correct, we don’t know what he really said, but I don’t have a problem arguing with the statement, regardless of whether it was actually said or not.

frummy in the tummy writes “But even if Moses himself told you to do something, don’t you think G-d gave you a brain to actually use it and decide if that commandment makes any sense?” Have you heard of ?? ????? The commandment whereby chazal tell us to follow the rabanan ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? I don’t know until which point in time this applies but I would suspect that on Moshe Rabbainu it must, no?

Zahavasdad, you wrote “calculus was basically invented in the 1500’s by Issac Newton and Liebnetz who combined all ideas previously known into one discipline.” You have your dates wrong, as Newton was born in 1642 and Leibniz was born in 1646, but I appreciate someone mentioning those folks.

Vochindick, we know Rav Moshe held like that, the question is that it’s shvere.

Harotze…, sometimes the kashah from an ofene Gemorah is very,very shtark!Get it?!?

MDD: Maybe shtark, not a pircha. Have you ever had a “shtarka” kasha that when you discussed it with someone else suddenly had a reasonable, if not obvious answer? I suspect that almost any ben torah has. Tough then that your kasha should be a pircha on the shitoh of anashim gedolim. ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????, ??? ??? ????? ??????……..