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Why, these days, are there more singles out there who would rather stay single than marry someone who isnt what they envisioned (99% of their list)?
either b/c they don’t want to work to change who they married, or they truly don’t want to get married and are just making excuses
that’s my take
:p> mbachur <d:
Ofcourse~ sad commentary… hope your stats aren’t correct (” more singles out there who would rather stay single than marry someone who isnt what they envisioned…”) … as long as they’re not compromising on lev tov, middos, & Yiras Shamayim.
i gave myself an age limit – if didn’t find what i was looking for by certain age, decided that would have to lower my expectations.
Many people don’t marry what they envision.
But what should they settle for? Should a chassidish guy marry a LWMO woman just to get married? At what point should they settle? 20?21?30?
Women have no chiyuv to get married and should only do so if they find a compatible partner.
Because getting married is not the end all, Boruch Hashem.
Isaiah 56:
? ???? ????? ??????, ???????? ????????? ???????? ???????: ????-???????? ??????????? ??????, ??????????? ???????????. ? ???????? ??????? ????????-?????, ?????-????? ???????? ?????–?????? ??????? ??????????, ???????? ????? ????????? ????-???.
? ?????-?????? ????-????????, ?????????? ???-?????? ??????, ???????? ????????????? ??????, ????? ??????; ?????-?????? ?????????, ??? ????? ??? ??????.
? ????-??? ????? ??????, ???????????? ?????? ?????????? ???-????????????, ?????????, ????????? ??????????; ?????????????, ???????????. ? ?????????? ????? ????????? ????????????, ??? ??????–????, ????????? ???????????: ???? ?????? ??????-???, ?????? ??? ????????.
You never truly get what’s on your list……here we go again.
The gemara says “tav l’maysav tandu, mil’maysav armelu”.
Meaning a person prefers to be married rather than sit alone!
Fellows, this is the worst case scenerio: Day = 24 Hours
8 hours work
2 hours travel to/from work
2 hours davening shachris,mincha,mariv
2 hours learning
1 hour eating
1 hour shower/bathroom/etc.
7 hour sleep
1 hour free to endure wife’s bidding/yapping/shopping
So it’s not so bad.
And yaff80 has it right, for a guy at least, being alone is the worst.
The gemara says “tav l’maysav tandu, mil’maysav armelu”.
Meaning a person prefers to be married rather than sit alone!
Interesting you mention that.
Big question if:
1: It is a Rov or a Chazaka (i.e. assumed to be true for most or all people).
2: It applies in all cases.
See the end of the 15th perek of Mesechta Yevamos for more detail.
I get annoyed by commentary like this.
I don’t think that is the case at all.
Some people seem to think that just because they married the first person, anybody can.
I have no idea why you did and others don’t. I have no idea why some people get married at 19 and some never.
But if you need to have some answer: Just assume you were able to marry the first one because you are a particularly shallow person, and nothing made any difference to you.
the gemara says tav lmaytav regarding women
I hear the fact that people dont always get what they are looking for, but what if they are thought out in what they need, or are looking for something they need in a relationship? Ie. I have a friend who her list is someone deep, gentle, thoughtful, connected to G-d,sweet and sincere. These are character traits she claims she cant do without and feels attracted to. Is it possible she may end up with someone who is not that?
I dont think they’d really “rather stay single”. I think they keep hoping that the one they envisioned is just around the corner.
Since I’m married, my opinion may not count, but given the fact that my spouse and kids are all that makes my life (work, struggles, ect) worth living, I would say that if I could not find the “women of my dreams” after a while (say, 5-6 years of consistant looking) I would give my ideas of what I need to be looking for a serious re-think.
I don’t say, you need to “settle”; you just need to be realistic of what a person can be and what you really NEED in a spouse.
But to stay alone? No, life is too tough to face it alone.
i waited awhile, but in end got everything on my list.
and popa, i know many people who married first person dated who was everything on their list.
why some people find person right away and others have to wait is like asking why some people have children right away and others not.
k dont attack me on this one…but id havta say COMMITMENT ISSUES…im only 22 and ive dated guys with commitment issues….and guess what!?!??! it only gets worse as you get older.
If you want something you gotta ask hashem for it!!!
Of course:
Plsease substantiate your OP with data or at the very least strong anectodal inforamtion. Are there percentatge- wise significantly more boys who are single and 35 today than there where 10 years ago.
Without that information, this entire thread is simple conjecture.
I for one have very little reason to believe that to be the case. I can’t say it’s definately not so, but I have seen nothing, heard nothing to indicate that it is.
I don’t like the implication that singles are somehow to blame for their single status. Singles have it hard enough! I know a number of single girls in their 20’s who aren’t being “redt” shidduchim because they are from divorced homes, or don’t want to support learning boys, or are not size 2. They are dying to get married, but no one wants to give them a chance. Now add to that pain by saying that these girls made a choice!
I don’t like the implication that singles are somehow to blame for their single status. Singles have it hard enough! I know a number of single girls in their 20’s who aren’t being “redt” shidduchim because they are from divorced homes, or don’t want to support learning boys, or are not size 2. They are dying to get married, but no one wants to give them a chance. Now add to that pain by saying that these girls made a choice!
Of course they made a choice. They choose to look for something extremely rare (a boy who is a “yeshivish” Ben Torah who does not want to be supported, or a boy that can not reject out of hand due to his huge “list”). Blame that on society that pushes boys to be supported.
Then their parents (or the girls themselves) reject the boy they are actually looking for (a Ben Torah who is working) because he is working or YU type.
Of course you can’t generalize, but in many cases it is the choice made.
To the OP – I agree; I think people just won’t settle and are Mevatel a Mitzva. This has become commonplace in our society.
When the single person is in their twenties, they shouldn’t settle for anything they don’t want; after that they should.
But what happens is- afterwards family and friends get involved. They say -you’re going to marry that -you Deserve much better! Unfortunately, the guy or gal doesn’t see the big picture. Then they listen to their family and friends. Eventually they become depressed and lose interest. This is all a Maasseh Soton. I believe the family and friends are going to give more of Din v Cheshbon than the actual person who didn’t get married.
Health: Are you happy you got married? Would you rather still be single?
whatrutalkingabt – “I dont think they’d really “rather stay single”. I think they keep hoping that the one they envisioned is just around the corner.”
I agree. The Yetzer Horah tells them this.
The reality is almost every person you go out with when you’re older, the next will not be as good as the one now. Stop fooling yourselves and take what you can get. This would be true for younger people also, except that a lot of people in their twenties haven’t grown up yet. So it’s still possible the next could be better. Once singles reach the stage of not changing anymore, what I said above applies!
PBA – I’m divorced. And I did settle; if I knew how much I was truly settling I would have waited. I still hope to get remarried, even though I have kids.
IMHO its not that we do not want to get married, rather it is that single individuals don’t want to play the game to get married (and this applies to the men and women, however women are more willing to play the games).
When I say “games” I mean the shidduch game (having to deal with demeaning shadchanim and superfluous singles, single events that are do not accomplish anything besides getting girls and boys into a room where they are not allowed to speak to each other without tacit approval from, again, a shadchan, not allowed to go someplace fun on dates, but rather a boring lounge, and many other examples).
If all the married people would just take a second and look back at the process these days in which a person has to go through to get a date, let alone get married (having to deal with what gifts to give, who will support the newly married couple, vorts, wedding planning, etc…) it should make them wonder why anyone would want to go through the process in the first place.
Health: That is what I mean. That is why I don’t understand why you would be counseling people to settle.
Ofcourse – “Health, I dont think its family and friends. By the time the single is 30 the parents and friends are d i e i n g for the single to get married, in the cases I see. They’re tired of looking for Mr./Miss Perfect.”
Of course I couldn’t disagree more! It might not be overtly always, but the attitudes and Haskafahs that they have instilled in the single person have now permeated that guy/gal and that’s why they can’t settle. Therapists have ways to change people’s bad attitudes.
PBA – “Health: That is what I mean. That is why I don’t understand why you would be counseling people to settle.”
You obviously didn’t read my first post. Here it is: “When the single person is in their twenties, they shouldn’t settle for anything they don’t want; after that they should.”
You could have figured I got married in my twenties; but why let an opportunity to put someone else down pass?!?
I think people grow and mature each year and therefor they need to re-evaluate their lists. It seems that although they mature their lists don’t seem to budge much. But lists are not all that realistic. Just as they are not the same at 25 as they were at 18, their lists should not and do not reflect the same person they would need at 25 as they needed at 18. If someone wanted a “learning boy” at 18 and finds themselves at the age of 27 and still not married, then maybe they should rethink that. How many 30 somethings are still sitting and learning and not moved on to support themselves? I have a family member in this situation and it is painful to watch that the list hasn’t changed.
You have to be realistic at some point and look for a honest and true baal torah and mitzvos even if they are working who you can encourage to learn more. Who wouldn’t want a hiatus from their job to get in an extra year or two of learning? Or just someone who has really learned wholeheartedly and successfully and lives and breathes Torah in his daily routine? Once you hit a certain age, life becomes reality and you move on whether it is your dream or not.
i’m not into this settling business; unless you mean something different than i think you mean.
1. marriage is hard enough as it is – to marry someone of whom you feel that you settled does not make the prospect of a happy marriage look promising.
2. people really do marry what they need – so if a person truly knows who they are and their list is truly in accordance with what they need, people tend to marry more or less what’s on their list.
3. in terms of wants, some people get more of and some less of what they want.
so, i’ve seen people always got their needs, though picture might be a little different. (ex. the height, his/her background – if it wasn’t a need, etc.)
so, it comes down to same thing again and again. i believe (from my experience) that:
a) people need to know themselves
b) they need to identify the things that they (not their parents, friends, teachers) really need and their wants
c) be able to express in words to everyone in the world what their needs are
d) if after a legitimate amount of time doing maximum hishtadlus and tefillah, to be more flexible in the wants section and only look at needs
and nobody could know for someone else what is a need and what is a want – even things like looks and/or money could be a need. (i don’t recommend it), but must be very honest with yourself.
Of course: did you puprosely ignore my question. You made an accusatory claim against a chelek of klal yisroel without any substantative evidence to support the claim.
I will posit that the number of older single boys (33 + and never been married) percentage wise is no greater thatn it was 15 years ago. As such your claim is unjustified.
Can you refute that?
or do you happen to know a hanful of “picky” people and therefore are painting with a broad brush.
You obviously didn’t read my first post. Here it is: “When the single person is in their twenties, they shouldn’t settle for anything they don’t want; after that they should.”
You could have figured I got married in my twenties; but why let an opportunity to put someone else down pass?!?
I’m not sure why you took my comment as putting you down.
In any event, would you have been happy with your marriage if you got married in your 30s? 40s? 80s?
I would expect the moral of your story to be that bad marriage is always worse than no marriage.
Cherrybim
“Fellows, this is the worst case scenerio: Day = 24 Hours
8 hours work
2 hours travel to/from work
2 hours davening shachris,mincha,mariv
2 hours learning
1 hour eating
1 hour shower/bathroom/etc.
7 hour sleep
1 hour free to endure wife’s bidding/yapping/shopping
So it’s not so bad.
And yaff80 has it right, for a guy at least, being alone is the worst.”
We can all hope that you are joking. Seriously, imagine being married to a frum man with this outlook. Being single would be an escape from misery. This is exactly what women don’t want. Unfortunately,some women are left with this empty shell when their spouses feel old and act it. To me this is a real loss of life. Imagine the offspring (if there are any) from this, plus the future generations. Just to let you know women sparkle when they are cherished and appreciated. Wow what an eyeopener. How sad.
Of course – “After 25, and especially after 30, after their being out in the world, singles have a mind of their own, and couldnt care less what parents say or want”
You don’t get my point. The adult that they have become is the result of their upbringing by family and friends. This has nothing to do with what kind of spouse that they claim they want.
A lot of these singles have bad attitudes in general, and in regards to marriage in particular. How many have the attutude -Nothing is good enough for me!?
PBA – “I would expect the moral of your story to be that bad marriage is always worse than no marriage.”
Of course it is. But do people get bad marriages because they settle on some Narishkeit? No, of course not.
Did you think I meant a frum person should marry a frei person?
Is this what I meant by settling?
You know what I mean by settling, eg.- he’s not such a masmid, he/she doesn’t make enough or have enough money, he’s/she’s a neb, he/she doesn’t dress the fanciest, latest style, he/she isn’t so good-looking, etc.
I could go on & on, but you get my drift!
“I would expect the moral of your story to be that bad marriage is always worse than no marriage.”
actually, (as a general rule) a bad marriage is a lot lot better than no marriage. growing old alone, never marrying, living a life of solitude, is like a prison. a bad marriage is bad – no doubt about that – but generally not nearly as bad as a marriageless life.
“I will posit that the number of older single boys (33 + and never been married) percentage wise is no greater thatn it was 15 years ago. As such your claim is unjustified.”
that doesnt say much. even if it is no greater than 50 years ago; all it means is that now as well as 15 or 50 years ago some boys did whatever was wrong in delaying or avoiding marriage.
Looks is all in Hashem’s hands.
A cousin of my husband’s was having a difficult time in shidduchim. She finally got engaged but wasn’t sure. She really wanted a tall boy and he wasn’t. Her friends were making her nervous. This one told her it is assur to see him, the other told her it was asser to even speak with him, and here she was totally unsure to begin with. I had told her that height and looks is not what is important, what is important is who is and if he has a tall middos and a good heart. Maybe Hashem did not choose a tall good looking boy for her. Have bitachon and get to know him. I told her she should stop listening to her friends and she should get to know her chasson, he has to be her best friend and not the girls she was used to.
PS I kept encouraging her right up to the day of the wedding. I have to say I thought he was cute although he was not much taller than her, a little chubby and had a beard. A few weeks after the wedding she called me and said “He treats me like a queen. I have never felt so important in all my life! I never knew someone can make another person feel so loved and so cared for. Hashem definitely sent me a gem.”
catchylogin – yes, it was meant to be humorous, and it does say “worst case scenario”. But unlike AZ, I firmly believe that all single’s could be married if they would allow it and make the step. Look for a mench and a yiras shamayim and the rest will fall into place if you’re both decent people.
Cherrybim, Sorry, but not only is it not humorous, it’s offensive because there’s so much truth to it. “Worse case scenario”, don’t get married. It’s better to be miserable alone than drag someone else along. I also believe that all singles could get married if they allowed it and took the step, but the goal is not the wedding, it’s the lifestyle change and that’s where these singles get scared.
catchylogin, aside from the last item what else would you change in this schedule?
The last item isn’t even what’s bugging me, at least the wife’s is on the program. It’s the typical attitude that you painfully put in writing, just get through the day with all the wrappings of a frum man. The minyan, job, learning, eating etc.and maybe an hour for the wife. This doesn’t sell marriage. Recently, I heard from a very with it 25 year old woman, now married about 5 years about how her Bais Yakov education painted frum married life as beautiful, The shabbos, yom tovim, zemiros, children, connecting with ones bashert, the kedusha in taharas hamishpacha etc. Well she and her married friends now commiserate on the good old days before marriage. These girls had fun. Husbands have to make their wives feel alive and important. They have to be more involved to make it work. Today’s wife is not the homemaker of previous years, that’s not really our value anymore. Today’s wife is usually working, must look beautiful all the time, run a household, plus take the time to daven, and do mitzvos and do it calmly. A woman needs to feel beautiful and be appreciated to do all of this. She needs to be on the top of that list. I realize you were joking but its exactly what’s wrong with many marriages.
It’s not enough just to marry people off, they have to work to keep the marriages alive.
OK.I’m done. You score a point here for asking what I would change. That was thoughtful. Thank you.
Of Course: I’m glad you think
“ask any Shadchan and Im pretty sure they will agree that there are more singles who are extremely inflexible”
I have spokne to MANY MANY shadchanim and they do NOT find that there are far more boys who are single 33+ then in the past. So I for one think you hypothesis is far far off base.
Cherrybim: If I believe that I all sick chikdren will be healed does that make that be so??? Neither does your belief that all singles could get married. It unfourtanetly just isn’t so. Any specific one, yes, all as a whole tragically not.
At 28 a guy has dated 5 years. The equivalent of a girl who is 24.
33 is simply a condervative estimate of a guy who has dated 10 years. (if he started 23). And plenty of guys who are single at 33 end up married (unlike the girls who are single at 29).
I don’t reallly care if singles date for a while before they get married (though it’s nice if it happens quick). The goal is they should be married. You stated rather stay single then marry- please support that statment.
I can confidentially state that for the girls who have dated 10 years and are still single it is far far worse than it ever was.
For the boys there is no data to support that.
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