Random Questions

adding to nobodys “tznius comes from within” just in hebrew: “kol kevuda bas melech—penima.”

and i think nobody should change her name to somebody for that insightful comment–“any girl can become a woman. not every woman can become a lady.” something like that.

kol hakavod

maskim 100%. way to go JAPP

i think s/o asked that question in another topic…check it out…or just wait for a moderator to answer

shindy: there is a small pamphlet-like book that is probably sold in eichlers or a judaica/ torah treasures place….its called “Hee Tishallel (in hebrew) A Practical Guide to Tznius” by Rabbi Yaakov E. Forchheimer from Lakewood. he writes that “The men should speak to the men, and the women to the women. Although this woman may be your best friend’s wife, to you she is an eshes ish, and therefore an erva….The same is true for the women….By the same token, men and women who are not related should not call one another by their first names.” (page 37)Rabbi F. cites this from the Ibn HaEzer (Ibn Ezra), biShem the Maharshal.

hope this helped.

Thank you so much Bais Yaakov maydel. That is so true. Thanks for your pure words.

“I am not sure why YWN allowed your comment to be posted as it is clearly against Torah values.”

I was not aware that YWN censored postings for content (aside from those that would clearly be inappropriate on a family site.) I have noticed that posts here are generally edited or deleted a) for clarity- spelling etc or b) for tone- personal attacks are not tolerated. However, I wrote a very long post in response to the replies I got to the last one that was published, and it has not appeared here. This upsets me, as I insulted nobody in the post. Since when is there a serious problem with pluralism, which was the main idea of the post?

Now for the rest- I will (again) defend my position as best I can, assuming the moderators see fit to allow me to do so.

“Atheism, the Reform, and Conservatives are incompatible with Judaism and the Torah.”

I have already addressed this issue in other threads and I am not going to repeat myself here. Anyway, 000646 said it better than I could have.

ICOT, I appreciate your sentiments and you have made me look at the issue in a different way. However, after some thought, I stand by my conclusion. I have had some really positive interaction with the Conservative community in Baltimore, and I noticed that a good deal of those who drive on Shabbos drive only to shul, not to the mall or grocery store, and furthermore, those who do drive to shul drive there because they do not live walking distance. I can think of at least two families who used to drive to shul and have since bought houses closer to shul so that they wouldn’t have to drive anymore. Granted, not all of them are like this, but many are. (This is part of why I get so upset when people make blanket statements like “all Conservative people are wrong and deserve Gehennom.”) As I have stated, I am not in the same position as these people are- some of them are also of the type to take that deal to strike the match on Shabbos so that they could use the wealth to do more mitzvot. It’s the same logic as driving to shul, that one aveirah will enable them to do a hundred mitzvot. Again, I don’t agree with it, but I respect it just as much as I respect those who are to the right of me. There seems to be this concept in the frum community that everybody to the left of X (say a typical frum Jew) is sinning terribly and preventing Moshiach from coming, while everybody to X’s right has just decided to take on more chumras. Maybe they’re unnecessary chumras, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with them. (Alternatively, everybody to X’s right is a tzaddik and X strives to be more like them! But never do I see such harsh condemnations expressed with regard to the extreme right as they are with regard to the extreme left.)

Mrs. Beautiful, your point about atmosphere works with regard to a camp, but not with regard to an entire city or even a neighborhood (like Boro Park, which you cited as an example.) Clearly, one can find out the dress code of a camp beforehand and decide not to send children there if they are not prepared to abide by it. But in terms of the city in which one lives, are you actually suggesting that people move out if they do not like the unspoken “dress code” by which most of the residents seem to abide?

On Tuesday night, I went to visit a friend of mine who grew up in a much more right wing home than I did. She is in seminary in an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood. I got off the bus and walked down the street to get to her apartment, realizing as I passed others that I was the only woman around wearing pants. This made me a little uncomfortable for a moment, and then I shrugged and kept walking. So what if I am more liberal than the majority of the women who live there? Should I have worn a long skirt just to “fit in”? It’s not as if I even live there, I was just passing through, and anyway, if I had done that, I would have felt as if I was hiding who I am and masquerading as someone I’m not. I should never be forced to abide by anyone’s standards other than my own. Anyway, they were comfortably loose-fitting pants which I wore with a long-sleeved shirt. It’s not as if I paraded in the street with a bathing suit on!

“I didn’t realize that I mentioned in my post that I look down on people who have different opinions.”

So you don’t feel that a statement like “your hashkafos are SKEWED” (notice the capital letters you put in to emphasize the enormity of my supposed error) consitutes you looking down on me for having a different opinion from you?

For everybody who’s trying to bring in Chukas HaGoyim, think about where black hats came from first.

Moderator, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about and writing this post, and I respectfully ask you to close this thread if you’re not going to publish it. I deserve the opportunity to defend myself against those who are challenging me, and if you’re not going to give me that opportunity, then at least prevent them from issuing further challenges which I will be similarly unable to answer.

__________________________________

NOTE FROM YW-MODERATOR: please have patience, when extremely long posts are presented on a newsday as busy as today, it may take longer to see it appear in the thread.

JF2:

You fail to grasp that as much as you would like otherwise, the views you espouse fall outside the daled amos of Torah Yiddishkeit. Your long post above makes this abundantly clear.

This site (YWN) falls squarely withing Torah Judaism, and hence you should not be so surprised that your comments raise so many red flags.

Will Hill,

If i am wrong and you are thought out then please answer how you KNOW that j fem’s ideas are not what Hashem wants (or that they are “outside the daled ammos of torah yiddishkeit”)

000:

You, and the other maskilim’s, tried & failed ideas have long ago been proven wrong. Yet your idealoges continue to think there right, despite all logic and evidence proving otherwise.

Will Hill,

please list some of the proofs that i am wrong, since you say i have been proven wrong.

Will Hill,

You claim all logic and proofs show that i am wrong, can you please list some of those proofs and explain some of your logic that proves me wrong?

ps that is ‘igros moshe ohr hachaim chelek 4’ ,by the way, its a tsuvah about the femminist movement

Jent,

you completley missed the point,

if j-fem has another rabbi (modern orthodox or otherwise) who argues on R Moshe you have no way of knowing wich one is correct it is only your (or your rabbi’s) OPINION that he (R’ Moshe) is correct.

You cannot look down on or blame someone who disagrees with this opinion the same way you woldnt look down on someone who disagrees with your opinion on what is considerd good food ect.

SJSinNYC,

What makes you think that all those things mentioned are “acceptable” in the orthodox community? Did you ever hear of a Yetzer Hara? As far as I know, most people I know have got one. The problem is that most people know that and try to work on themselves, but if someone has an ideology against the Torah, what will make them work on themselves?

Yes, I speak Lashon Hara unfortunately, but I also learn the sefer shmiras halashon every night and am trying to work on myself but if someone drives on shabbos and thinks that they are doing a good thing because they are going to shul, they are wrong.

No one is saying that someone who drives on shabbos is a worse Jew, but they are definitely mis-guided. We may not judge them (who knows where any of us would be had we grown up in a different situation) but we cannot accept their views as being correct at all. If it is against the Torah it is unacceptable.

“But just because someone does not drive to shul on shabbos doesnt make them a better Jew than someone who does.”

That is laughable. Someone who drives to shul on Shabbos is oiver Shabbos M’daraisa.

Mrs. B, I agree that in such a public forum how can one person say “dont wear…” I mean I am from BP, the styles u see in some of our neighboring communities would not be acceptable in my neighborhood.

It’s very important though not to look down upon those that are not on ur level of tznius. In fact by being friendly and warm to EVERYONE, u r actually encouraging them to dress and behave in the modest way that u do.

” In fact by being friendly and warm to EVERYONE, u r actually encouraging them to dress and behave in the modest way that u do. “

I agree that one should be warm and friendly to everyone. But I also think some people need to lose the attitude that ONLY their level of tznius is acceptable and that somehow we are in need of being “fixed” by them and brought ot a higher level. I dress in long sleeves, long skirts, non-flashy colors,nothing too tight. So if I wear cap sleeves under a long sleeve shirt, or a slit at the bottom of my skirt, that makes people who don’t do so on a higher madreiga? Please. that type of thinking is extremely divisive in the frum world. We need more achdus, not more harchaka.

Brooklyn 19,

Think about what you are saying, are you saying nobody ever argues on R’moshe? thats simply not true and i think you probably know that.

besides for the many times that other chareidei gedolim disagree with him on some issues,

there are probably thousands of modern orthodox rabbis who argue on alot of what he says

you may be of the opinion that those rabbis arn’t as big as R’ moshe or you may value R’ moshe’s opinion over theres wich is fine, but if somone disagrees with that opinion there is really no way you can say that you know they are wrong or even look down or be offended that they disagree with you.

000646 –

how many people are on the level to argue with a someone like rav moshe? intellectually? not so many, but you might find a select few. however, to argue with a man like that you can’t just be a genius. you have to be a gadol.

maybe i’m being closed minded but i’m gonna say this anyway: i don’t believe there are any modern orthodox rabbis that are up to disagreeing with rav moshe. not that they aren’t smart or knowledgeable, but they’re definately missing something. you can’t even compare.

and besides, i said if someone’s gonna try to argue, at least bring a source. cuz no one on this site is great enough for their personal opinion, that’s for sure.

Do you know what the definition of a good jew is?

One who is trying to be a better jew!

Why are we judging people? Every person is responsible to do the best that s/he can. We don’t know who’s the “better” jew.

I just wanted to first tell the “Queen of persia”, that I really respect her for coming on line and asking advice. Hashem sees all efforts, I havent read until the end of the posts, however, I hope your son is in Yeshiva or where ever he should be. I once had a friend that had a teenager home, out of school for a week or so. She was making a very big effort to get her in school. However, I told her not to let her stay at home, that she should take her to the gym, the park, to volunteer somewhere or whatever. It is very depressing to be at home. I am sure you are doing all you can.I just wanted to say it just in case! I dont mean to add to your pain G-d forbid. I once had to change schools with my kids, it is a very trying time. I wish you much peace and happiness and nachus!

Yanky55, probably not. But I don’t like changing quoted material, and if I quote a sentence that has a grammatical error, I like to include the (sic) so as to indicate that the mistake was made by the original poster and not by me. A couple of people here have indicated that they felt offended by this, but it’s an MLA standard practice. I’m a writer, so I have ingrained grammatical sensibilities and perfectionist standards when it comes to correct usage of language, syntax, and grammar. Just today, I was in a class on Megillat Rut and the teacher misspelled the word “protagonist” as “protaganist”. I raised my hand and politely corrected her. She shrugged and continued teaching without rewriting the word on the board. My eyes kept darting back to the word every few minutes for the rest of class. It’s just a weird personal quirk, but I get very annoyed by these things.

Anyway, I think we are going in circles again. Abcd, I think you said it best, and I’m not going to say any more on this subject.

If you agree that driving to shul is wrong but aren’t judging the person. That is fine. But if someone states that she/he “accepts” that someone chooses to break halacha and accepts any way someone chooses to serve H-m, that is wrong. there is only one way to serve H-m and that is by following the Torah (which really means a bunch of ways of serving Him but all those ways have to be Torah True.)

When you say, You dont know if that person driving to shul brings them closer to follow Torah Judaism. It doesn’t matter. You can’t do something against the Torah in order to do other Mitzvos. I still don’t say that you should judge these people. Maybe they deserve a much larger Gan Eden than someone who is supposedly very frum. who knows! But NOT because they drive on shabbos. It is despite it.

Charlie Brown,

First of all are you saying that you know that none of the leaders of any other movements in klal yisroel know or knew as much as R’ Moshe?

If you are how do you know?

Second of all,

There are plenty of things that arn’t clear cut as either the thing or situation may not have exsisted in the times of the shulchun oroch or gemara and we just depend on them ‘feeling’ (“Daas torah”) that this is what was meant by the torah.

Third of all,

by many things especialy those benogeia to science or tznius it is very possible that either they did not fully understand how the thing works or that they didnt realise the amount of evidence there is to somthing (by science things)

or they considerd somthing to flashy or crude because in the society they were brought up in it would have been considerd to flashy or crude and it has nothing to do with knowing halacha (by tznius).

000646

it’s not that they don’t know. le’havdil, the reform movement was run by brilliant men. they knew torah cold. that’s the only way they were able to thrive. would you call them gedolim?! no way! but no one ever said they were amei ha’aretz!

le’havdil, any modern orthodox rabbi might be brilliant. and he might even know shas. but he’s still not on the same level.

notice one thing. who are usually the ones arguing with gedolim? very often it’s the small-time rabbis. the other gedolim (who are far more competent) accept a gadol’s p’sak more easily. not that they never argue. but at least they’re better equipped.

Brooklyn 19,

You said: “le’havdil, any modern orthodox rabbi might be brilliant. and he might even know shas. but he’s still not on the same level”.

On what do you base this statement, how do you determine who is on what level and how do you know wich rabbis have whatever it takes to be on a level were people should listen to them(besides for them agreeing to your outlook on how things should be.)?