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Chuck,
are you agreeing with joseph? if you are can you answer the question i asked him?
646, as recently as 100 years ago in Europe, people commonly married at age 12. From that perspective, marrying off a 9 year old of the times past who was equivalent (or better) in every way to our 19 year olds, seems much more reasonable.
The implication that the Torah would condone a marriage that is detrimental to either party, is an abhorrent one, at best.
Hakatan,
It is not realistic or reasonable to say that 9 year olds 100 yrs ago were as mature as 19 year olds are today. it just dosnt make any sense.
or 1000 yrs ago ect.
Sorry, I double-checked the other thread. Turns out it was Joseph who said that.
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Jfem,
WOW!! someone mixed me up with JOSEPH!
This is 100% Toras Emes.
bogen,
what?
I used to learn with some beginners who were not yet frum, and one had much trouble with the concept of kiddushei ktana. I tried to explain, it is not recommended, but yet suppose a father was very sick, and had little money to leave, but at that time could afford to make a wedding. The family knew a wonderful boy from a wonderful family, and the only way they could be sure she would ever get married would be if they married now. It is better to use this avenue, then for her to be an orphan with no money and very few shidduch prospects later on. It sometimes depends on the situation. If she gets married now, she may be set for life.
pashuta yid,
first of all thats a very nice story but the gemara dosnt say you can only do it in such a case,
second of all,
a father forcing (or convincing for that matter) his nine year old daughter to marry someone is abuse no matter the how sick or poor the father is.
I thought I remembered reading that sometimes young firls were married to protect them from the local (non-Jewish obviously) ruling officials, who would leave them alone if they were married but not otherwise. In those cases I believe the girls would stay in their parents’ homes until they were older. Does anyone else know more about this?
aft –
That was limited to a certain time and place. A small window in Jewish history.
take it easy everyone. The Gemara (Kiddushin 41a) says outright that it is assur for a father to marry off his daughter before bas mitzvah.
Charlie Brown,
The shulchan aruch (even haezer 37:1) clearly does not pasken like that gemara and says that a father can be mekadesh his daughter who is a ketana even without her knowledge.
…and also says that from 3 years and a day old and older she is miskaddeshes bibeeah.
Joseph (or those that agree with him),
how do you understand this Halacha? do you not consider these things abuse? i hope you do.
i think the answer is that it was written in a time when these forms of abuse werent considerd wrong and were common in the general society were they were written, and that influenced the halacha that was written in that time. (i also think the same would apply to statements by rishonim and achronim about woman not having the mental capacity to learn).
you on the other hand hold that this view is bordering on heresy. can you explain yourself?
000646,
look a bit later in siman 37, I think se’if yud, that the shulchan oruch paskens that its a mitzvah for the father not to do so. There is a machlokes between the the bais shmuel and the chelkas mechokek whether the shulchan oruch paskens normally that its assur or if its only a mitzvah not to but not assur, but there is certainly at least a mitzvah not to.
the fact that if someone did so it works and she becomes an eishes ish, and yes that kidushei biah works too to make her an eishes ish – doesn’t mean that its encouraged or that chazal thought it was a good idea. In general the gemara says that nobody should be mekadesh with biah even with an older girl.
ywn editor is my reply gonna be posted?
YW MODERATOR: No.
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