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@Zeff, firstly welcome to the CR and congratulations on your first post, to place a geder for our children in 100% normal, its not knocking the other guy it’s our chumra, for example I hold by Cholev Yisroel, do I knock the other person who hold cholev akum? no I just won’t take a coffee in his house, likewise if he is makpid on yoshov and I’m not same holds true.
To compare a rally with female singers [ that happens to be 100% lo khalacha] to a trade show is absurd, you obviously never attended a trade show.Zeff: What about the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedolei Torah of Open Orthodox circles, are they inferior, or is it only the Roshei Yeshivos and Gedolei Torah of Modern Orthodox circles that you are concerned with?
Do you insist that those on a higher spiritual plateau lower themselves to the standards of those who espouse ideals outside the acceptable Torah life demanded by Gedolei Yisroel?
Even the few Rabbonim who approved the initial pareve letter from the Agudah saying it is okay to attend the Washington rally last week Tuesday, officially withdrew that permission to attend, once they learned what the rally was really all about.
They, too, then said it was forbidden to attend:
READ IT: Rav Aharon Feldman Shlit”a Responds To Massive Controversy Surrounding Pro-Israel March
Even the few Rabbonim who approved the initial pareve letter from the Agudah saying it is okay to attend the Washington rally last week Tuesday, officially withdrew that permission to attend, once they learned what the rally was really all about.
They, too, then said it was forbidden to attend:
READ IT: Rav Aharon Feldman Shlit”a Responds To Massive Controversy Surrounding Pro-Israel March
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@common saychel there were no women singing at the rally. The female actress was speaking not singing.
@ujm & @common sechel:
Thank you for your response and warm welcome to the CR. I appreciate the opportunity to engage in this important discussion.
I understand your point about setting gedarim and respecting individual chumras. It’s crucial to maintain our standards while navigating the diversity within our community. However, I’d like to offer a clarification regarding the comparison I made.
My intention in referencing trade shows was not to equate them directly with a rally, but to convey the idea that at many shows, specifically the ones in Vegas, FL, and CA, there are aspects that could be categorized similarly to the concerns raised by the rabbanim about the rally. Let me conclude by emphasizing that I’m not here to nitpick various points, but rather to express my belief (just an opinion) that now more than ever, we need achtus and love regardless of where other yidden are holding. Let’s refrain from looking down at others and instead strive to bring everyone together. Achtus prevented the destruction of Migdal Bavel. It was only when Hashem mixed up the languages that achtus was broken, providing the ability to destroy it. Let’s focus on achtus rather than saying we can’t take part. There’s always a workaround that allows us to participate without compromising our standards.
Harav Feldman stressed the point that we can not demonstrate with Christian clergy. This point is well taken and based on the teaching of the RY RAK zatzal who considered it a chilul Hashem. Harav Feldman also states that for pikuach nefesh we can demonstrate with different types of Jewish clergy. Indeed the Agudas Yisrael has shown that it represents the needs of Klal Yisrael.A big yasher koach to them.
Joseph,
Nothing new here and you’re still playing childish games. This letter from Harav Feldman, Shlita on his personal stationary explains why he withdrew his support at the last minute on Tuesday morning. It does not purport to speak for anyone else on the Moetzes. You still can’t provide any proof to your claim that all or even most of them were against attending.
You also falsely implied the Moetzes had nothing to do with the initial letter yet Harav Feldman clearly writes, “the Moetzes approved sending out flyers to the Agudah mailing list announcing the event and its importance”.
Once again, please keep your lies and made-up religion to yourself.
Zeff, thanks for your post. R Feldman summarized the dilemma pretty well:
>> I was extremely pained to have to say that we should not participate in the rally and not be able to influence Congress to help protect my brothers: civilians, soldiers and hostages. But, on the other hand, I could not contribute to undermining, even in the slightest way, the beliefs of Torah Jews. There would have to be another way to help the Jews of Israel.
Therefore, with a heavy heart I retracted my support of the rally.So, Rav is very frank in discussing trade-offs: yes, rally was important for pikuach nefesh (contrary to those who claim it was not) and it would also endanger beliefs of his community (contrary to those of us, like me, who feel it was possible to handle). He also calls, as I did, for charedi community to find what they can do.
What I do not fully understand is the “heavy heart” decision to resolve this trade-off: not to risk his community “even in slightest way” to pursue “pikuach nefesh”. Maybe, he sees that his community is indeed unprepared to listen to a pastor or, l’havdil, a President of Israel, in the ways people more exposed to the world are not.
Also, I am surprised that he is surprised that Israeli officials were highlighted at a political rally … to support Israel… To expect American Congressmen to split hairs between eretz and medinah seems unrealistic.
a user comment on an article by R Adlerstein:
As a Mom with several sons /sons-in-law called up to the army, I would like to make a practical suggestion. Some of my kids live on Yishuvim, in which due to their fairly homogeneous nature (age group and the fact that almost all the men serve in the army), the vast majority of men were called to miluim, leaving mainly women and children on the Yishuv. There are a few Chayyalim who guard each Yishuv, but the women are concerned that they are insufficiently protected in case of an emergency or attack, G-d forbid .
Maybe each yeshiva could move to a Yishuv and continue learning in the Yishuv Beit Knesset. These men could learn 16 hours a day, as like Chayyalim they would be away from the distractions of home, providing metaphysical protection..and..simply by their presence (and if some have security training and guns, even better) they can provide physical security, as well. Most Yishuvim have extra caravans where they could sleep, and they would stay on a 12 days learning / 2 days home schedule, like many Chayyalim.
It would seem to me that if the Yeshiva world is truly dedicated to providing protection through Torah study, this could be a win-win solution.1. I moche/protest against the bizoyon of a Talmid Chocham — Rav Sorotzkin!
2 Zeff, have you ever heard of the issur of being united with reshoim?@AAQ, nothing new here, you always keep daas torah in contempt
@mdd1 :
I would respectfully suggest that, considering your elevated spiritual level (Madreiga), attending the rally may not have aligned with your personal path. Therefore, opting to stay home might have been the right choice for you. However, let’s avoid labeling fellow Jews as wicked (resha’im). Instead of asserting an Issur against joining with those you perceive as wrongdoers, let’s engage in a more nuanced and respectful dialogue about our differing perspectives. Perhaps through such conversations, we can foster an environment that encourages unaffiliated Jews to reconnect with their faith.
What did the rest of the Moetzes say about it?
This whole thing is very very silly. Originally, a majority of the moetzes was pressured into allowing agudas yisroel to send out flyers. They didn’t know the details of the rally. As it turned out, there was a priest, an actress, and secular singer edited. There were no tefillos.
Therefore, many gedolim came out against it (R’ Yitzchok Sorotzkin, R’ Malkiel Kotler, R’ Elya Brudny, R’ Yerucham Olshin, Others). Including Rabbonim who were previously supportive (R’ Aharon Feldman).
This rhetoric by those lowlifes who think that they’re a bar daas to disagree with gedolei yisroel is disgusting. If your rabbi tells you to go, nobody is attacking him. The idea that we have to be ‘united’ with the wicked members of the zionist ideology is the thing that started this 70 year tragedy of a state.
It was helped to be founded by Agudas Yisroel, standing with the the evil ben gurion in his demands for a state like every other nation. Stop making the same mistakes over and over again.Zeff, how they will be judged in shomayim is not really relevant bere.
Torah and secularism aren’t “differing perspectives.” We are obligated to distance ourselves from what Hashem disapproves of, which these movements represent, regardless of whether or not their adherents are reshoim vis a vis their culpability, their expectance to know better, etc..
It seems that your alignment leans more towards Neturei Karta than anything else. Referring to Israel as a “tragedy” is quite extreme, and it’s essential to assert that labeling it as such is unwarranted and, frankly, ridiculous (not sure how the editor allowed that statement of hate).
I’m concluding this conversation. My initial intention was not to provoke users into expressing hateful language
AAQ
Rav Feldman did not imply his community would be influenced by the rally. You are construing the words that you yourself quoted. He said that he can’t contribute to undermining our Torah beleifs by advocating for people to go to the rally.
You can feel that he was wrong… that it doesn’t undermine it…or for pikuch nefesh it is ok to undermine it…but that would be his Daas Torah vs yours.Not even one of the Gedolim on the Moetzes is on the record supporting attendance at this secular rally.
In fact, there isn’t even one Godol anywhere, including outside the Moetzes, that supported it once it became known who the speakers were and what the program would be.
Yeshivish, I was referring to r Feldman saying that he is afraid that young people will be attracted by the pastor speech.
> on the record supporting attendance at this secular rally.
R Feldman explicitly told you that such attendance is allowed when there is pikuach nefesh and that the rally satisfies this criterion. Your disregard of his words is unexplainable.
His decision to rescind his approval is based on 2 additional factors that he clearly states.
Joseph,
Grow up, you child. Harav Feldman, Shlita explicitly wrote in his letter, “the Moetzes approved sending out flyers to the Agudah mailing list announcing the event and its importance”. Only a minority of the Moetzes later signed to forbid attendance at the rally.
Once again, keep your lies and made-up religion to yourself!
“sending out flyers to the Agudah mailing list announcing the event and its importance”
That verbiage is not a request that anyone attend.
And even THAT was withdrawn and the rally denounced by the Gedolim.
Not one Godol is on the record as having endorsed attending.
And even the unsigned pareve letter regarding its importance, even before that was withdrawn, was not signed by name by any Rabbi.
Joseph, R’ Schachter is definitely a gadol, and not only did he encourage attendance, he himself attended the rally. As others said, keep your lies to yourself!
DaMoshe (Talmid of darchei torah)
Rabbi bender sent out an email saying he doesn’t think talmidim should go because their learning is much more powerful but if a parent wants to take their kids not going to stop them
In essence they didn’t advise people to go but wont stop anyone from going
Zeff, I am simply echoing the words of the gedolei hador at the time time of the States founding.
Using the words the Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Satmar Rav, Nitra Rav, and R’ Aharon Kotler is not ‘hate’. All of the gedolei were always against Zionism and Zionism is the ideology that the state of Israel is based on.Z_Not,
first, you are a follower of “no true scotsman” fallacy – you admit as gedolim only those who agree with _you_. So, you are a gadol and so are those who agree with you. Not too humble.2nd, not all arguments of 100 years ago are still applicable. People are the same and arguments are not the same. Majority of current Israelis are not even descendants of Zionists 100-70 years ago (Sephardim, Rusim, Charedim, Americans …)
This was ( it seems what Agudah often does) they played the usual “neither here nor there”
Obviously many of the Frum families in Baltimore are connected to Ner Israel yet even after R’ Feldman’s retraction some schools attended or setup a system for easy notification that they were taking their child out of school to attend the rally.
The lack of clarity can be frustrating but at the same time successful groups tend to go different ways & sometimes the best route is to cater to all by catering to no one.@Damoshe, No one besides the YU crowd looks to R Hershel Schecter for guidance, and even that is suspect because the YU crowd tends to do whatever they want regardless of what a rav says, I really doubt if more than 5 people would have had a change of heart if Schechter would have said not to go whereas 1000s did not go because of Rav Feldman said not to go.
I can appreciate R Feldman’s position as a Rosh Yeshiva: he is responsible for bochurim and it is not his place to send them somewhere where the parents did not expect them to go. It is safer to keep them learning. And his letter clearly described his views on importance of a rally and what were the negatives. Given this information, it should be a logical next step – organize an event that fits guidelines of a substantial part of the religious community and invite others to join. Hope this happens.
common, your thought experiment is incomplete: you compare how R Schechter’s possible message against his own views with R Feldman’s message that caters to the community.
Better compare it with the actual (original) R Feldman’s view that it is worth attending. And it is easy to track given his reversal on the day of the rally: count how many people were driving to DC and then turned around. How many people did that?
It’s not about who I choose to be gedolim. If I would just mention the rabbonim who hold chillul shabbos is assur, would you also accuse me of this?
Zionism is a clear issur from the gemara (shalosh shavuos). And if you’re going to do your logic where everything that anyone argues is a legitimate machlokes, no matter of the consensus of rabbonim, just know the same argument could go for reformed rabbis and shabbos.>>>Zionism is a clear issur from the gemara (shalosh shavuos)
Even assuming that is true, what falls into the category of zionism/shalosh shavuos is certainly not a clear cut issue. Not in the Gemora and not in the Rishonim and not even mentioned in Rambam or Shulchan Aruch
>>>everything that anyone argues is a legitimate machlokes, no matter of the consensus of rabbonim etc.
The differences between what make someone a Rav or lhvdil a reform rabbi is not an issue of consensus at all. Do you know what it is?
In my experience people whose relationship to Torah and mitzvahs is so heavily influenced by their view on Zionism (pro or against)that it is a part of their identity usually are willing to bend Torah sources to fit their biases on the issue
AAQ, I count you in the category of the listening to talmud chochom only if it fits your agenda, enough said.
Z,
I agree that we need to define who is a legit rav.
Maybe like that: if rav x is legit, and he respects rav y, then rav y is legit. Maybe exclude some outliers of rabbis who love humanity so much that they’ll respect anyone, and cases when someone changed dramatically over time.You can easily get a chain from Satmar rebbe to r Schachter: thru Moshe and r Soloveitchik. There might be hard cases but this is not one of them.
Looking thru mishna berura for shalosh shevuos … found so far that shalosh seudos is a mitzva, that making shevuos is not advisable. Found that Chofetz Chaim wanted to go to EY during zionist enterprise .. please advise what perek.
Smerel,
You are sadly mistaken. The reason halacha seforim don’t bring down the issurim from the shalosh shavuos is because halacha seforim are for halachos for a specific individual. An issur which is incumbent on the whole of klal yisroel isn’t relevant to such a sefer.
But the Rambam does actually bring the shalosh shavuos when writing a letter to Jews who were planning to move to eretz yisroel. He said that the shavuos didn’t apply in that case but never do we find that a rishon or any gadol before Zionism and after that says that they just aren’t ‘binding’.Addict, I actually spoke with R’ Bender earlier today about the rally. His position was not as clear as you make it. It appears that he didn’t want his feelings publicized (most likely because he doesn’t often get involved in politics), but as I said, you don’t have the full picture.
Common: you are incorrect. Many more people look to R’ Schachter for guidance than you think, and RIETS people definitely listen to him.
@DaMoshe, by all means show me one time when R Schechter differed from other rabbonim and caused a large group of people to change course.
DaMoshe: commonsaychel’s comment (that you challenged) is 100% correct.
And so is coffee addict’s comment, despite your poor attempt to camouflage Rabbi Bender’s stance on this.
“You can easily get a chain from Satmar rebbe to r Schachter: thru Moshe and r Soloveitchik.”
I too have a chain to Meir Kahane, I used the same cleaning lady as someone who learned in the mir flatbush who used the same facilities that Meir Kahane occasionally used,
I also have a chain to Amrom Blau because I was in my friend’s car who gave a hitch to Moshe Ber Beck who was a disciple of Amrom Blau, in addition I have a chain to Yankel Feferkorn who pelted the aforementioned with eggs.
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