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I’m not really convinced about the whole dilution of talent theory, and it certainly does not seem as relevant to me in an application of knowledge and understanding.
When people will be complaining in the coffee room about being unable to find clients despite having a few years’ experience as a well-regarded Shalom Bayis counselor, then I’ll grant you that we will have reached a saturation point – at which point you can be concerned about dilution of talent.
Right now it seems we’re just not getting enough talented people trained and in the field.
WM: Your comparison does not stand for the following reason:
In Minor League baseball, only the cream get in. Those who have shown no aptitude for baseball do not get up and decide “I’ll start now”, and get a contract. Furthermore, if you don’t make it to the minors (e.g., you are mediocre in college), you have to get a job doing something else, thereby reducing the number of required spots.
Both of these are not true in learning. If someone decides in Bais Medrish of Kollel that they want to learn, they are given the option to do so. Furthermore, those who have no chance of “becoming the next Rav Pam” are not told to get a job, but are allowed to remain in kollel, expanding the number of positions needed.
When people will be complaining in the coffee room about being unable to find clients despite having a few years’ experience as a well-regarded Shalom Bayis counselor, then I’ll grant you that we will have reached a saturation point – at which point you can be concerned about dilution of talent.
I agree with you here. If you don’t have enough people to fill the positions, dilution of talent doesn’t really matter.
If someone decides in Bais Medrish of Kollel that they want to learn, they are given the option to do so. Furthermore, those who have no chance of “becoming the next Rav Pam” are not told to get a job, but are allowed to remain in kollel, expanding the number of positions needed.
Most kollellim have entrance standards. They do NOT take anyone who walks in off the street and announces he wants to sit and learn. This is because there are only so many potential kollel positions available. You cannot expand kollel indefinitely simply because at some point, we can no longer financially support them.
In addition, your rejoinder about Minor League ball doesn’t really stand up either. Minor League Baseball doesn’t turn away those who don’t have a prayer of being a Derek Jeter either. The minor leagues are filled with players who have no chance to play at the major league level, let alone be a superstar. True, you have to have a certain level of talent, but you certainly don’t have to have the potential to be a superstar.
Lastly, you missed what was perhaps the most important point — it takes more than talent to be the top at any field, be it baseball or learning or just about anything else. It takes drive, determination, effort, perseverance and a genuine love and desire to do whatever it you’re doing. Most people don’t suddenly wake up one morning with those qualities — they’re largely innate qualities that one often has or does not have. To be the “next Rav Pam” you have to have those qualities — and someone who has those qualities is *already* learning and striving toward the goal. He’s not a computer programmer or lawyer or accountant looking to quit his job. Someone who has that rare combination of qualities could probably do nothing else but learn.
The Wolf
Most kollellim have entrance standards. They do NOT take anyone who walks in off the street and announces he wants to sit and learn. This is because there are only so many potential kollel positions available. You cannot expand kollel indefinitely simply because at some point, we can no longer financially support them.
This is not the case in Israel, or Lakewood. It is true in Out of Town communities.
In addition, your rejoinder about Minor League ball doesn’t really stand up either. Minor League Baseball doesn’t turn away those who don’t have a prayer of being a Derek Jeter either. The minor leagues are filled with players who have no chance to play at the major league level, let alone be a superstar. True, you have to have a certain level of talent, but you certainly don’t have to have the potential to be a superstar.
Yes, but you have to be able to be a Minor Leaguer. You can’t play on the level of a high schooler and expect to last.
Lastly, you missed what was perhaps the most important point — it takes more than talent to be the top at any field, be it baseball or learning or just about anything else. It takes drive, determination, effort, perseverance and a genuine love and desire to do whatever it you’re doing. Most people don’t suddenly wake up one morning with those qualities — they’re largely innate qualities that one often has or does not have. To be the “next Rav Pam” you have to have those qualities — and someone who has those qualities is *already* learning and striving toward the goal. He’s not a computer programmer or lawyer or accountant looking to quit his job. Someone who has that rare combination of qualities could probably do nothing else but learn.
I agree fully, and that was my point. We don’t “cut” (to use a baseball term) anyone who doesn’t have “drive, determination, effort, perseverance and a genuine love and desire” to learn and tell them to go work. If we did, then we could reduce the number of slots needed and do better work with what remained. Instead, we allow them to linger, taking up the spot of the next Rav Pam. Therefore, we have to expand the Kollel and not miss out on “the next Rav Pam”.
That’s a good thing.
Yes, but you have to be able to be a Minor Leaguer. You can’t play on the level of a high schooler and expect to last.
And you can’t stay in kollel if you can’t learn a daf gemara.
We don’t “cut” (to use a baseball term) anyone who doesn’t have “drive, determination, effort, perseverance and a genuine love and desire” to learn and tell them to go work. If we did, then we could reduce the number of slots needed and do better work with what remained. Instead, we allow them to linger, taking up the spot of the next Rav Pam. Therefore, we have to expand the Kollel and not miss out on “the next Rav Pam”.
The point of kollel is not produce the next Rav Pam, no more than the point of the Minor Leagues is to produce the next Derek Jeter. The point is to produce the next group of high-performing individuals who can “play” at the top level. A kollel should be deemed successful if it churns out qualified rabbanim even if none become a gadol of any stature, just as a minor league would be successful if it churned out major league players, even if they don’t go on to hit 500 home runs or win 250 games.
But adding more people is not going to bring you “the next Rav Pam.” If he exists, he is already learning in kollel. More slots may result in more qualified Rabbis, but it will never result in finding the “next Rav Pam.”
That was my point, nothing more.
The Wolf
Many Rabbanim are very adept at dealing with shalom bayis issues, such as couples who disagree constantly on how to best parent their children, or have frequent arguments on how to spend money. However, abuse which is a new dynamic emerging in the frum community needs specialized training.
He relates the following incident.
The little I know
Correct. Although the example he gave was about domestic violence,,he included in his article cases of emotional abuse.
Quote:”There is a repeated pattern of behaviour and a lifestyle of a husband encroaching on his wife’s rights,whether it’s controlling the finances, using demeaning language, and/or imprisoning and suffocating her even if he never lifts a hand to strike her”.
P.S.
Rabbi Weinberger states that a woman must be made safe.
Quote “Safe does not just mean physically protected; she must be protected emotionally and psychologically as well.
The right rav will never ask an abused woman,”What did you do to deserve it?” when she describes the way she is being abused.There is never a legitimate excuse for abuse.”
Wolf: But imagine if Derek Jeter was unable to join even the minors because they were full. That is why Kollels have to continue to expand.
Baruch Hashem the Torah community has only a very small abuse (physical or psychological) problem, as a relative comparison to the general population – where the shkotzim are often drunk, beat their wives, abuse drugs and gambling, etc and then let it out on their wife when they come home in an enraged stupor.
Although, it must be added that as low as the occurence in our communities is, even one case is one case too many.
Wolf: But imagine if Derek Jeter was unable to join even the minors because they were full. That is why Kollels have to continue to expand.
Oh, come on… that’s the silliest objection yet. 🙂
If someone has talent,*really* has talent to be a superstar, he’ll find a way in. If he has the talent to be a superstar, plus the drive, determination and ambition, it’ll take a full blown conspiracy and collusion to keep him out.
Keep in mind, if a Derek Jeter-type player came to the Yankees and they said “sorry, kid, all our teams are full*”, then he’d go to another team. The competition between the teams would cause at least some of them to recognize his talent and give him a shot.
Likewise, there’s competition between kollels for talent as well. If someone *truly* has the talent to be the gadol hador, no rosh kollel, in his right mind, would turn him away. And, if by some chance he does get turned away by one, another one will snap him up.
I’ll say it again because it’s still true: increasing the number of kollel spots may increase the number of Rabbis produced, but it will NOT bring the next Rav Pam. If he exists, he’s not going to be waiting around on the outside looking in for a spot.
The Wolf
* Which, of course, if they recognize his talent, they’re not going to say, but hey, let’s pretend for a moment.
My good friend is unfortunately in a situation where her husband is abusive and refuses to seek help, be it rabbinical advice or professional therapy. She has no choice but is in the process of filing divorce papers.
Litigating in secular court division of assets, child support, visitation, or anything else for that matter is called arkoyos and is a serious violation of halacha (barring extenuating circumstances such as one party making it clear halacha has no meaning to him/her thus allowing a beis din to authorize the other party to denfed him/herself in court.)
When people come to a Rav it is important that they agree to either stay togehter or break up , whichever, but that it will be done in an amicable manner. Nothing is gained by getting an army of friends and relatives involved. Nothing is gained by sharing private details with a curious group of friends. The developmental health of the children and the effect on their perception of a relationship needs to override personal vendettas and ta’anos. If it is to stay together it needs to be Bishalaom. But even if it splits it needs to be Bishalom. They will one day want to be at the chassunos of children, simchos of grandchildren… thre is no place for overt animosity and hatred.
They are not exempt from the Mitzvah of Viahavta or of greeting people with a kind face. It may be hard.. sometimes avodas Hashem is that way. But we can live up to tall expectations.
If someone *truly* has the talent to be the gadol hador, no rosh kollel, in his right mind, would turn him away.
I hope you are right. It certainly doesn’t work that way with star Rabbaim, where “tenure” (not real, but who will fire a so-so Rebbe?) does not allow new blood (who would be better for the children) to enter.
The little I know –
“NJ_Mom:
We begin the process with rabbonim because the get should be done first. I don’t know laws in NJ (if that’s the jurisdiction where this couple is), but there might be a get law as in NY.”
There is No “Get” law in Jersey – speaking from experience.
How come the “Get” law in NY isn’t called forcing the “Get” on the woman, which we don’t do acc. to Halacha?
Of course on the man it’s a good thing!
Rav Moshe paskened that NY’s Get Law causes Get Me’usa (invalid get’s.)
If she doesn’t utilize the get law. If she does, it is invalid. Rav Elyashev said so about the current New York Get Law. According to some, it is invalid even if she doesn’t utilize it since he has the fear that she has the option to invoke it if he doesn’t issue a get.
Shmoel: What are you saying? That all Gittin in New York are P’sulim? That’s ridiculous. You clearly don’t know whaat a Get M’useh is.
I said I saw piskei teshuva (I forget which) that says the mere having the law puts all gitin in that jurisdiction at risk. Rav Elyashev also said using the current NY get law invalidates the get.
I spoke to Rabbi Weinberger personally and he told me the following facts.
Not long ago in a certain town, in the space of approximately 18 weeks, there were 32 divorcees. Rabbonim giving the wrong advice caused quite a number of them. He himself was dealing with such a case. He is advocating getting Rabbonim to agree not to get involved in sholom bayis issues with out the joint involvement of a therapist.
“I said I saw piskei teshuva (I forget which)”
Yup. I have a bridge to sell you. It has a great view of a place where all Gitten are Pasul.
Not long ago in a certain town, in the space of approximately 18 weeks, there were 32 divorcees. Rabbonim giving the wrong advice caused quite a number of them.
While I agree with you that rabbis who are not trained and qualified to act as marriage therapists shouldn’t do so, I find it quite a bit of a stretch to state that the blame 32 divorces in 18 weeks can be laid solely at the feet of the local rabbis.
The Wolf
Reb Dovid was not making up theories.He stated FACTS from talking to the Attorneys involved in all those cases.
Please note that he never said ALL the cases. He said quite a number of them.
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