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Beniguman: That is double-talk. If someone knows before conversion he will not observe his mitzvos obligations, he is clearly not accepting the ol of mitzvos. Such a so-called convert remains a gentile.
Ah talmid,
It isn’t double talk, it is the accepted lomdus. The lomdus of what is happening when a person is m’gayer is that he is accepting upon himself the yoke of mitzvos. He is agreeing to be bound by the mitzvos and punished by Hashem for not keeping them. That is what being Jewish means.
While we tell a ger some mitzvos before he is megayer, we don’t tell him about all of the mitzvos. A person can be megayer without knowing any of the mitzvos and the geirus will still be valid as long as he understands that he will be bound even by the mitzvos he doesn’t know about.
Charlie,
The difference is that everyone agrees that that person did the wrong thing. He was removed from his position. On the other hand Avi Weiss is lauded and he is mevazeh the Torah much more openly
And brazenly and he is proud of his actions. And you think he is a better person, a better Jew?
I would also like to repost from another thread the following quote from R’Moshe. Those that are claiming Rabbi Druckman’s conversions are invalid should read carefully.
?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??, ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???”? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????
??”? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ? ???? ???
If he knows a mitzvah before “conversion” and at the same time knows and intends to completely flaunt it and not observe it, despite any verbiage he utters “accepting” the Ol Mitzvos, he never accepted the Ol Mitzvos and remains a gentile.
Ben,
That reminds me of the story R’ Wein relates about the time he ran the OU kashrus. He was at a catered affair, and went to the kitchen and asked for the mashgiach. He was nowhere to be found. He searched for him, and finally found him outside smoking. “Shouldn’t you be in the kitchen?”, he asked. “What could be wrong?” he answered, “the whole affair is under the OU!”.
Ah talmid,
You are simply incorrect. You are incorrect on two points:
1) If he knows of a mitzva understands it is binding but knows that his tayva is too great and he cannot keep the mitzvah. His giyur is valid. The kabola would only be invalid if he holds that he doesn’t have to keep a particular mitzva, that it is not binding on him.
2) If he verbally accepts the mitzvos than he is bound by his acceptance and the giyur is valid. He can’t come later claiming that in his mind he didn’t mean it. Dvarim Sh’bilev Eiynam Dvarim.
I would like to publicly state that I find daniela’s comments on R’ Druckman to be vile, petty, and simply untrue.
charliehall:
“First, he is Rabbi Avi Weiss.”
And I’m Rabbi Kanoi.
“No less a figure than Rabbi Druckman himself has been quoted as complaining that the charedi world doesn’t refer to DL rabbis by the appropriate title. One can disagree with him, but don’t disrespect him.”
This has nothing to do with the type of yarmulke Weiss, wears, the problem is that he’s trying to change the definition of Orthodox Judaism to include his watered-down, shamelessly pandering to the secular philosophy of the day, stream of so called Judaism. If I’m not mistaken, R Moshe Dovid Tendler has referred to him as “Conservative”.
“Second, Rabbi Avi Weiss is someone who has personally brought many Jews to mitzvah observance, and who has constantly spoken out against anti-Semites and others who oppress us, all over the world.”
So did the leaders of the Conservative/Reform movements; that doesn’t make what they do and believe any more correct.
“Few if any of us can stand in his shoes.”
Yeah, he’s got a special place in hell. He is migaleh panim ba’Torahshe’lo ki’halacha and machtei vi’choteh es harabbim on a truly impressive scale.
bman:
“”Ol mitzvos” means accepting that the yoke or the burden of mitzvos, meaning accepting that they BINDING. It is not equivalent to being m’kabel to DO all the mitzvos.”
I’m sorry, but that’s ridiculous. Accepting the mitzvos as binding means that one acknowledges that s/he must do them.
TKNY,
There is a difference between agreeing that you MUST do something and agreeing that you WILL do them. Ol mitzvos means the former, not the latter.
This might be easier to understand in Yeshivish. The Ger is being m’kabel the chiyuv mitzvos, he is not making a shvua that he will do the maaseh mitzvah.
” If he verbally accepts the mitzvos than he is bound by his acceptance and the giyur is valid. He can’t come later claiming that in his mind he didn’t mean it.”
It is patently obvious he never intended to accept the mitzvos in the first place, despite his uttering some prepared text saying he has.
It’s interesting to note that the defenders of Rabbi Druckman have completley ignored a detailed post explaining exactly what is wrong with his geirus.
And it’s furthermore interesting to note how people seem to feel that if one is granted semicha and has the title of “Rabbi” then that grants them the right to argue on those far greater then them in every way.
Let me explain.
I had a serious medical emergency.
It was arranged for several Senior Dr’s to examine me. They were from the top in their perspective field’s.
Afterwards when discussing it with my local GP he made a comment that if he would argue with some of the Dr’s that were on my case then he would just show himself to be a fool, if I wanted a second opinion then I needed to reach out to Dr’s of the caliber that had examined me.
There is no further proof needed to the “clown” status of many of the “Rabbis” being discussed over here other then the fact they are “clownish” enough to argue on Gedolei HaDor who are so far out of their league in Torah knowledge that it’s an insult to even put them in the discussion.
If you want to take Weiss an co. seriously saying he’s clown enough to argue with Rav Elyashiv wont do the trick.
Ah Talmid,
Obvious when? If it was obvious, at that time, (say if there was a gun to his head), then you would be right. Because there would be an anan sehadi as to his daas. But if you are basing your “patently obvious” on later behavior, then it cannot be mevatel a geirus retroactively because of dvarim sh’blev.
You are also assuming you have an “anan sehadi” but the Talmid Chacham overseeing the process does not. That is why I cited the teshuva from R’Moshe. If the Rav is knowledgeable and frum, we can be machzik that the kabola of mitzvos is valid and the convert is a full fledged Ger!
I would suggest learning the sugyos on giyur including some teshuvos over the centuries and then coming back.
“I think it is demeaning (although it wasn’t your intention) to call him a politician.”
I think it is demeaning for rabbis to get involved in politics. And that even includes R’Elyashiv z’tz’l.
“his watered-down, shamelessly pandering to the secular philosophy of the day, stream of so called Judaism”
He hasn’t watered down anything.
“R Moshe Dovid Tendler has referred to him”
That is nothing compared to the despicable name-calling that the charedi community has directed towards Rabbi Dr. Tendler.
“Yeah, he’s got a special place in hell.”
Jews don’t believe in Hell.
“enough to argue with Rav Elyashiv “
Lots of gedolim pasken’d differently from Rav Elyashiv z’tz’l. And that is no demeaning of Rav Elyashiv, it is just that he was one posek and his rulings were generally accepted only by one segment of the frum world.
“clown”
If charedim want respect from the MO and DL communities, they might want to start observing the mitzvot of respect for talmidei chachamim.
Ben Levi,
That post was a copy of an article. The article was clearly written by someone who was not clear on the requirements of Geirus. The psak of R’Elyashiv, at least as quoted in that article, is not a contradiction to Rabbi Druckman and certainly does not mean that R’Elyashiv holds that the Geirim that went through Rabbi Druckman are not Jewish, chas v’shalom.
The article is, frankly, mere hearsay without the response of the accused party, a known Talmid Chacham.
Rabbi Druckman is no “clown rabbi” he is a posek. Once someone is a posek, a talmid chacham sh’higiya l’horaah, he has a right to argue, and he must argue on even those greater than him. Ain l’dayan ella ma sheinav ra’os.
R’Moshe argues on the Vilna Goan, the Noda BeYehuda, even sometimes the Shulchan Aruch or the Rama. See the introduction to the first volume of Igros Moshe.
Charlie, I am moche. You don’t seem to have enough respect for talmidei chachomim to grant them the wisdom to decide when it might be necessary to get involved in politics.
Benignuman, were there, or were there not, quotas?
No, benignuman, you are assuming the “beis din” consists of talmidei chachomim (and you even annoint some as being a “godol”) when in fact they are none of that and simply political hacks with a religious orientation. Knowing gemora and/or psak well does not on its own make one a talmid chochom. (As an aside, do you hear of gedolim who had an elected parliamentary career like R. Druckman?) Ergo “Orthodox” talmidei chachomim like Moses Mendelssohn.
A real talmid chochom and godol is HaRav Avrohom Sherman shlita. Ironically he is daati leumi. And you should read his psak beis din on the Druckman so-called converts.
Beningnuman,
If you would be up to date on the Matzav in Eretz Yisroel you would be aware that essentially was the crux of the huge machlokes regarding Geirim.
Rav Elyashiv made it clear, very clear that in his opinion many of the converts that went through the process of Rabbi Druckmans system were not Jewish and yes, that was the position of Rabbi Avrohom Sherman who is Dati Leumi and was the “Whistleblower” in many cases.
Charliehall,
The name calling of the Rabbi Tendler you refer to is because in the eyes of most Rabbonim in the Torah World Rabbi Tendler is to qoute many “a second rate scientist and thrid rate rabbi”.
And yes over and over his psakim have been held up and shown to have no basis.
A Doctor who is off the beaten track and passes out medicine that is of dubious origin and is proven to be dangerous in many cases is called a quack even if he has a “degree”.
The Rabbi you refer to is essentially a quack.
“simply untrue”
The pain caused to human beings is not simply untrue and can not be waved off. This applies to everyone, but most especially to the sincere converts who suffer untold rejection and pain. Some of those people had no intent to become Jewish and their “conversion” is worthless, but most did, even among those who did not commit fully to an observant lifestyle. Their status’ questioning – if not outright rejection – of course pushed them further away from the little observance they had. It takes lots of time and effort to address each individual case, for those few who in the meantime had adopted a very religious lifestyle and seek recognition by a widely accepted bet din. What about the rest?
“simply untrue”
The pain caused to human beings is not simply untrue and can not be waved off. This applies to everyone, but most especially to the sincere converts who suffer untold rejection and pain. Some of those people had no intent to become Jewish and their “conversion” is worthless, but many did, even among those who did not commit fully to an observant lifestyle. Their status’ questioning – if not outright rejection – of course pushed them further away from the little observance they had. It takes lots of time and effort to address each individual case, for those few who in the meantime had adopted a very religious lifestyle and seek to be recognized by a widely accepted bet din. What about the rest?
The amount of name calling here ,particularly against rabbonim who do not espose the ‘chareidi” viewpoint is breath-taking. This has been going on for decades and even geonim like Rav Goren zz’l were its victims. No wonder that the non-chareidi crowd dismisses the chareidi arguments and its interlocutors- in the chareidi world, there is not Torah but the chareidi Torah. Sad and ultimately self=defeating,because they only succeed at marginalizing themselves.
In addtion ,the ignorance of history of some of the posters is obvious. For example,”ah talmid” writes: “do you hear of gedolim who had an elected parliamentary career like Rav Druckman?” Obvioiusly, “ah talmid’ does not know his jewish history. Check out the career of R” Meir Shapiro, zz’l, founder of Daf hajomi. Check out who sat with him in the Polish Siem. Check out who sat in the first Knesset, from R’Itche Meir Levin (brother in law of the gerrer rebbe) to other religious members.
“And you should read his psak beis din on the Druckman so-called converts.”
*En masse* pasuling of conversions without hearing each case without any precedent in our history. Chazal says awful things about dayanim who decide cases without hearing all sides, which is what Rav Sherman did. At least the Conservative movement admits that they make up halahchah.
“most Rabbonim in the Torah World Rabbi Tendler is to qoute many “a second rate scientist”
Most charedi rabbonim unfortunately do not have the scientific background to judge Rabbi Dr. Tendler’s science. I do.
“You don’t seem to have enough respect for talmidei chachomim to grant them the wisdom to decide when it might be necessary to get involved in politics.”
I didn’t say that. They have the right to decide whether the demeaning of Torah is worth the possible gains.
“do you hear of gedolim who had an elected parliamentary career like R. Druckman”
Rav Hirsch served in the Moravian parliament.
charliehall – “Most charedi rabbonim unfortunately do not have the scientific background to judge Rabbi Dr. Tendler’s science. I do”
You are a disgusting baal gaavoh.
get off your high horse.
and once I’m at it, did Tendlers (drop the rabbi for “mosrim” – and LIARS – yes, he is a big fat liar, all recorded on tape) father-in-law, hagon reb moshe feinstein also lack “scientific background”?
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