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I am curious to know what any of our members think about his MLK celebration. In the video he is singing, & encouraging his congregation to sing along with a male/female chorus standing in front of the Aron Kodesh. Is there any limud z’chus?
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Is it really for any of us to say? I’m not his Rebbe and he isn’t mine. I don’t see what can come of this discussion other than lashon hora and the satisfaction of bashing someone you deem to be inferior. I suggest that it close.
Is there any limud z’chus?
Depends how loudly you read along when you get an Aliyah:
??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???????
Megillah 21B. (Also see Rambam, SA & KSA on Kriyas HaTorah) If anything, he was correct in encouraging his congregation to sing along.
P.S. I did not see the video, but rather would like to discuss the Halachic aspect.
Could be there is nothing “left to write”
His views are typical of “Modern Orthodox”. He’s on the border between them and “Conservadox”. In Israel, the army uses female singing to weed out hareidim (from the Israeli equivalent of modern orthodox) in an officers course. So if you hold that the Medinah is “glatt treff” there is no way you’ll find any limud z’chus for him, but if you consider the “Dati Leumi” to be religious Jews with misguided views on many matters, he fits right in.
Where can I see this video? I haven’t seen Avi Weiss in over 40 years and wonder what he now looks like. He was a mainstream YU rabbi back then.
akuperma: Please don’t say his views are typical of Modern Orthodox. They are definitely not! Modern Orthodoxy would not say it’s ok to listen to a choir of women singing! They would not bring a church choir into a shul! His views are Open Orthodox, not Modern Orthodox! Please don’t lump us together with him!
“His views are typical of ‘Modern Orthodox’.”
No, the RCA is typical of MO, and Weiss is not very popular with them. The RCA does not accept his “musmachim” as real rabbis. But if you want to find guilt by supposed association because you love to hate, then go right ahead.
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“So if you hold that the Medinah is ‘glatt treff’ there is no way you’ll find any limud z’chus for him”
Weiss is treif because of his destroying the Mesorah and his promulgation of that.
From what you wrote, it seems that you would have no problem that Weiss ordains women and has a Baptist choir in his place, as long as he hates Zionism.
akuperma: See, that’s just not true. Most people who are “Modern Orthodox” think that it is very wrong. So he doesn’t fit in. That’s why most actual “Modern Orthodox” people think Chovevei is Conservative.
I, not exactly an extreme rightwinger, cringed at seeing the clip on YouTube (you can see it on the Home page). I did not notice any yarmulkas on the heads of the black singers nor did I hear any jewish tones….This particular event is a minor one when it comes to criticize Avi Weiss but it is telling to me that he seems to attach more importance at celebrating an American icon- as laudable as it may be- than to advance true Jewish tradition. It pains me to say that, but I think Chovevei Torah and possibly the Hebrew Institute will turn conservative sooner rather than later. The RCA may have to chnage its tune soon…
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Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a huge opponent of anti-Semitism, a huge supporter of Jews who were being oppressed all over the world, and a huge supporter of the State of Israel. Rev. Dr. King spoke out loudly against the oppression of Jews in the former Soviet Union before it was on the radar screen of American and Israeli Jews.
I agree with DaMoshe, MDG, and Sam. Modern Orthodox (for whatever labeling is worth), is still within the pale. I disagree with some parts of that mehalech, but it’s an insult to the ehrliche, frum people, who label themselves that way, to lump them with Avi Weiss and YCT.
I agree with Charlie. There is an absolute heter for all issurim when it comes to interracial relations.
Charlie,
Lol!!!
How do you come up with this? Maybe you should give up your day job.
My sides are hurting. Hoo hoo.
Is an apikores really allowed to duchen? Anyone know?
Because that would remove the “same place as duchening” issue.
I agree with left to write. I think it’s essential to have a good relationship with everyone around us. Personally, within 3 houses in either direction around mine, there are families that are black, hispanic, Muslim (from India), Sikh, and white. Guess what? I have a decent relationship with all of them. I say good morning and good evening when I see them. One of them once even offered to shovel my sidewalk when it snowed on Friday night, knowing that I couldn’t do it until Shabbos ended!
That said, I don’t think R’ Weiss was correct in his celebration. I don’t have a problem with inviting some black members of the community in, and giving a speech about the contributions of Dr. King to society. But there is no reason to have a choir including women singing in front of everyone. There is no reason to have a gospel choir singing in a shul at all! There is a time and place for everything, and a shul is not the place for a gospel choir! I think he should have showed how Judaism can celebrate Dr. King, not that Jews can celebrate the same way baptists do.
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left to write: you perfectly encapsulated what I felt watching this clip of YouTube. I know that it was all done for interracial peace- but there are many other ways to do that AND to show respect for the holiness of a sanctuary. I was also (very) bothered by the fact that-seemingly- none of the males in the choir wore yarmulkas. This,to me,is elementary!
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There are 4 editeds in the first 19 posts on this thread. What’s the CR record?
And 4 deleted. We’re being patient
ROB, the not wearing yarmulkas isn’t what bothers me; it’s the rest of it.
DY: Yeah, but if the rest of it wasn’t so bad then the not wearing Yarmulkes probably would.
Wait, are we talking about the Jewish males or the Baptist males?
Responding to Sam: I don’t know the record, but I must point out that most of the edits were minor. In general, an edit does not imply that the poster did something wrong, but we don’t want to present a poster’s words as his or her own even if we made only a slight change.
It would not seem that the issur of lashon hara would not apply to Avi Weiss as he seems to fall under the category of an apikorus and most probably considered a rasha as he openly flouts the words and teachings of Chazal.
Why is everyone so concerned about the female singers in the choir? Isn’t this the synagogue that has women leading Kabalas Shabbos?
Popa, I didn’t see the clip, but I thought the choir members were Baptists. I don’t know why they should wear yarmulkas.
midwesterner: Not that that’s Muttar for several reasons, but at least one has the Sridei Aish to rely upon so that there is no Kol Isha in that situation. The Sridei Aish’s Hetter doesn’t apply here.
Oh shoot. I just realized a fairly strong Hetter for this, actually. But it is definitely not one that should be mentioned in a public forum.
To all those who question why I am so bothered by the non yarmulkas for the baptist choir. It is elementary that, when you enter a shul, men cover their head,regardless whether they are jewish or not.I have been a pulpit rabbi and always, it was derech eretz for any male to cover their head.this is elementary, showing respect for the sanctuary. Unless,of course,you are a reform shul. Not a very good comparison for rabbi weiss and the hebrew institute…..
PBA asked, “Is an apikores really allowed to duchen? Anyone know?”
Rav Ovadia Yosef says that a Mechallel Shabbat should not duchen. I don’t remember about a apikoros, but I would infer that’s worse; i.e. don’t let him go up. In any event, he says that we allow the mechallel Shabbat to go up bediavad with frum Kohanim to avoid machloket. IIRC it all you got is a mechallel shabbat, then no Birkat Kohanim.
who made up that its disrespectful for them not to wear a yarmulka in shul? i thought you guys were joking the whole time! thats like telling them to put on tzitzis (unless they did, havent seen the video)
oyoyoy: I pointed out the fact of no yarmulka. if you cannot see why it is (very) disrespectul for any male, gentile or not, to be in shul with an uncovered head, I think you should look into your own derech eretz situation.
yaaaaaa, i know you pointed it out, just dont know why you think its derech eretz. Is it cause by the kosel theres yarmulkas for everyone? i think thats also stupid. Is there a difference between this and tzitzis? i think anyone who does it looks funny and ignorant. And to say you were surprised by this when there was christian kol isha going on in a mikdash mi’at is like saying “oh, and the murderers socks werent matching!” bt dubs, why is it only disrespectful for a male not to wear one?
When the Shabbos goy somes into the shul to fix the heater or something, there is no reason for him to don a yarmulka. Or anytime a goy comes into a shul. If he does, he may as well as put tzitzis on too.
yoyoyo: if you do not understand why a male- and not a female- should cover his head in a “mokom kodosh”,I have no answer for you. Yourv analogy to tsitsis is laughable. A yarmulka is kovod for the sanctuary (and you see that they require it by the Kottel too!) tsitsis has nothing to do with kovod-it is a mitzvah. You willsee that ,in all yeshivas and ashkenaz shuls, the baal tefiallh always wears a tallis-even during maariv. Why? Again, for the kovod of the shul! similar to a yarmulka.
rabbitofberlin: i guess you have no answer for me. i highly doubt this comes from a jewish source. my guess is that they made up doing so is derech eretz, not us
oyoyoyooy: see my earlier answer. Additionally, at all gatherings that I have seen that have occurred in shuls, I have always seen EVERYONE -including gentiles- wear a yarmulka.
ROB,
If the reason for wearing a talis is because of kovod for a “makom kadosh”, why does only the shaliach tzibur wear a talis?
Following your logic, only the shaliach tzibur should wear a head covering.
because a shaliach tsibbur leads the services…that’s why. And if you hadn’t noticed ,in many chassidische sthieblech, they will insist that the shaliach tsibbur put the tallis over his head,even as the people might not do it. And again, covering one’s head (especially in a shul) has become the hallmark of jewish tradition even though it is a minhag.
“Puk mo amo diber’-just look at the events where a gentile is in the shul (check,for example, the recent induction of the British Chief rabbi and see prince charles with a yarmulka)and you will see what is the minhag.
oyoyoyooy: see my earlier answer. Additionally, at all gatherings that I have seen that have occurred in shuls, I have always seen EVERYONE -including gentiles- wear a yarmulka.
Herr Rabiner, i did. See my earlier answer, “my guess is that they made up doing so is derech eretz, not us.” Again, even if what you say about everyone YOU saw wearing one is true, i still believe its a mistake on their part and they just look ignorant. Regardless, i still cant believe you lumped this together with everything else. ayin l’ail.
ROB,
But they also wear a tails when not in a shul.
The point is that the Tallis is not because of the shul, otherwise everyone would have to wear a talis. And you would have to wear a talis anytime, not just by davening. (Although Avi Weiss is notorious for wearing a talis at political demonstrations).
The reason has more to do with kavod hatzibur. And in Weiss’ case, the Tzibur was largely a baptist group so kavod hatzibur with a talis or yarmulka is moot.
Anyway, you are so missing the forest for the tree.
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