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“women aren’t chayiv in shachris or mincha “
The Mishnah Berurah and the Aruch HaShulchan disagree.
“instead of worrying whether women are allowed to”
This is more of a torah lishmah discussion here. I do not know a single orthodox woman who wants to put on tefillin. There may be some, somewhere, but this is clearly not a big issue in practice.
Charles,
See the well written article by R Mayer Twerski which basically trashes all your comments.
I am not sure who your Rabbi is, since you do not name him, but R Soloveitchik’s grandson, a RY in REITS as well as R Hershel Shechter, of the prime talmidim of R Soloveitchik, specifically say that the “psakim” of Harcsztark and Lookstein are not in the derech of R Soloveitchik. So I am less than inclined to take you at your word.
I fail to understand how Harcsztark became a posek and he conferred with his Rebbe, a high school teacher. That is just an inane comment.
I suspect that certain of the paragraphs quoted from the Shulchan Aruch and the Rambam specifically deal wuith those “psokim”.
“I am not sure who your Rabbi is, since you do not name him”
He is smart enough to avoid publicity, unlike me. (Hmmm….maybe I should follow him more closely on that one.) But he has surprised The Rav’s grandchildren, including Rav Twersky, with some of the things he heard directly from The Rav.
“not in the derech of R Soloveitchik”
Rabbi Hershel Schachter does not always follow Rav Soloveitchik either. Nothing wrong with that. My rav asks shilahs of Rav Schachter! And in any case, Rabbi Lookstein is also recognized as one of the prime talmidim of Rav Soloveitchik, who praised the Ramaz School effusively (and himself ran with his wife and daughter a similar school in Massachusetts, the Maimonides school).
“I fail to understand how Harcsztark became a posek”
He became a posek when he was hired by the SAR board. They put him in charge.
You don’t like that? Don’t send your kids to SAR!
See the well written article by R Mayer Twerski which basically trashes all your comments.
Which really boils down to point 3 (the reasoning behind the Ramo), which is only about Machashava. The Yodea MaChashavos knows these girls’ Machashavos when putting on Tefillin. You, I, Rabbi Twersky, Dr. Hall and others do not. (As opposed to WoW, where they have stated their own opinion). While I would agree that probably a Bais Yaakov or Charaidi girl who starts may be doing so for other motives, the girls here were tought that this is proper Avodas Hashem by their parents.
(P.S. That is not to say I agree, but to explain why Rabbi Twerski’s points MAY not be valid in this case. Did he speak to the girls in question so that he knows their specific intent? Besides, since Rabbi Twerski is not their Rabbi, the girls (and SAR) have no Halachic imperative to agree with him).
“He became a posek when he was hired by the SAR board”
That explains everything.
Which members of the are capable of making someone a posek? There is only ONE rabbi even listed as a board member and his whole claim to fame is Christianity. Perhaps that is why this p’sak came out.
And yes, that is just one of the reasons I would not send my children to SAR. Because of how they choose a posek, who is clearly not competent. That flies in the face of what we are charged with in the very first mishna in Avot.
And it plain idiocy to think that because he is the principal, he becomes a posek. They are very different roles. (And this stance of yours is quite hypocritical, considering how often the charge is leveled that RY cannot be poskim, even extended by your friends about R Shachter, when he came out so strongly against partnership minyanim)
“But he has surprised The Rav’s grandchildren, including Rav Twersky, with some of the things he heard directly from The Rav.” Agin. I see what R Shechter and R Twersky have publicly said, I have no reason to believe your anonymous attributions.
“Rabbi Hershel Schachter does not always follow Rav Soloveitchik either” But he will not say that that he is following R Soloveitchik when he does not. Which is what you are saying now. I trust R Shechter a lot more than you to say what is the derech of R Soloveitchik. Your comment is pointless.
“and himself ran with his wife and daughter a similar school in Massachusetts, the Maimonides school” The Maimonides School allowed girls to wear tefillin in school while R JBS was there? So how can you make such a redacted comparison?
Softwords: I am not defending women wearing Tefillin. Ad’raba. However, we must be honest about the Sugya. If Guf Naki means just not expelling gas, then there is little reason to prevent a women from wearing Tefillin on that consideration. And see the Mishnah B’rurah’s comment inside. He is clearly just referring to the fact that (in his time) women were less hygienic than men.
The issue of minimizing wearing Tefillin nowadays is the Derech that Rov Achronim take in the Rama. It’s quite a Pele, honestly, that the Mishnah B’rurah seems to explain the Rama as a hygienic issue. Nowhere does he mention minimizing Tefillin to just Sha’as Tefillah. Presumably this is because he holds that L’chatchilah people should wear Tefillin as long as they can (he makes a few comments that seem to go against the general Mehalach in the Rama, such as that one should wear Tefillin for a Seder of Limud after Davening).
And it is not Chazal who said not to wear it. It is a Shittah developed (well, starting with some references by Tosfos) by the later Ashkenazic Rishonim. The Minhag certainly follows these Rishonim. But it has no mention in Chazal and is not an actual Issur D’rabannan. We have to be honest when learning in explaining these Shittos.
And, by the way, because of this Rama and limiting Tefillin only B’sha’as Tefillah, I have on numerous occasions made it known that I think that someone who misses Shacharis (is sick, sleeps past Chatzos, has some sort of emergency) should only put on Tefillin when Davening Mincha, not at any other point in the day.
“P.S. That is not to say I agree, but to explain why Rabbi Twerski’s points MAY not be valid in this case. Did he speak to the girls in question so that he knows their specific intent?”
I believe he specifically addressed this point towards the end of part II.
” Besides, since Rabbi Twerski is not their Rabbi, the girls (and SAR) have no Halachic imperative to agree with him”
No, but they are required to base their decision on competent halachic authority, which, by their own admission, they have not.
Suppose a woman really wants to put on tefillin in order to feel more connected to Hashem and feel more kedusha, is there something else that someone can suggest that would be equivalent to donning tefillin that doesn’t come along with such controversy?
BS”D
First, this should all be considered to be in the realm of “Hypothetical Lumdus”, in the way that a talmid discusses the Rebbe’s shiur.
I believe he specifically addressed this point towards the end of part II.
I would hope that even you would agree that the analogy is highly flawed. Why not straight out compare it to two high school girls who feel closer to Hashem by worshiping Jesus? On the other hand, one can also compare it to two girls who really want to hear Shofar on Rosh Hashana (to which it is certainly closer). Why compare it to one over the other?
No, but they are required to base their decision on competent halachic authority, which, by their own admission, they have not.
Please define “competent halachic authority”. It is exclusivly the Skverer Dayan? Satmar Rov (Rav Zalman, not CV Aharon)? The famous MamzerMacher “Posek” in Brooklyn? Rav Nachman M’Uman in a dream? I know Rabbi Twerski tries to explain what it is not, but does not explain what it is. Can a Shul Rov no longer Pasken Shailos and must ask every question that comes to him to Rav Shteinman? (B’mechilas Kevodo and rhetorically) Perhaps Rabbi Twerski should consider himself to not be a “competent halachic authority” (by his own definition), and we are therefore all wasting our time discussing his P’sak?
Thanks.
The Ashkenazic acharonim do not pasken that way.”
My Rov holds that we are. And we are not Sefardic.
GAW,
No, I do not believe it is highly flawed, I believe it is exaggerated to help make the point easier to understand, but not flawed in it purpose.
As far as who is competent? Regardless of your disgusting comment about who is competent, there is no question by any sane individual, that Harcsztark is not competent to change halacha as codified by the Rema. You think his high school rebbe made him so or perhaps the board of the school?
Harcsztark’s whole letter publicized his own incompetence in psak to the whole world.
You will note that the it is the Rabbonim who are always listed as the gedolim of the Modern Orthodox communities, the ones that the centrist commenters bust a gut in their insistence that they should speak in Lakewood, who are the ones leading the protest.
So it does not have to be defined who is a competent authority because the only ones who are publishing/paskening to contrary are so clearly incompetent.
Suppose a woman really wants to put on tefillin in order to feel more connected to Hashem and feel more kedusha, is there something else that someone can suggest that would be equivalent to donning tefillin that doesn’t come along with such controversy? “
I have always believed strongly that women should connect to Hashem fully in the ways that THEY bring Kedusha into their homes,i.e., making Challah, licht benschen, and Taharas Hamishpacha. When they are 100% mekayemos these Mitzvos which were entrusted to them by Hashem, AND also raising the next generation of Torah-observant Jews properly, then I think they have room to seek further spiritual awareness, if they so choose.
The problem as I see it, typically is that so many of the women who claim to want to wear tefillin, daven by the Kosel in a Tallis (and disrupt the men standing there who have a CHIYUV to daven), and otherwise unnecessarily take upon themselves traditional male obligations, are NOT even remotely fulfilling basic Halacha as it is incumbent on women. If they were truly connected to Hashem in their own mandated mitzvos, they would likely not have the time to imitate men.
I am very thankful every morning when I say sheh asani kirtzono, that I was not born a man. I am thankful that when I was up half the night with a crying baby, that I did not have to go to shul in the morning, as my husband did, even though he might have also been up in the night with the baby at some point. I was profoundly grateful to have the privilege of bringing life into the world and then teaching my children how to make a bracha,say Krias Shema, help them with their homework, teach them how to prepare for Shabbos and yom tov, things which my husband did not have the time to do on a regular basis.
By the way, saying Tehillim is a beautiful way to connect further with Hashem. Doing chessed by visiting a shut in, or cooking for someone who has just had a baby, taking someone shopping with you because she can no longer drive, being a member of the Bikur Cholim that visit people in hospitals, are all things that we women can do, and on our own timetable, to boot. Is it really SO important to these women to put on Tefillin? Or is it simply their way of trying to make a statement?
Think of all the additional learning that could be done if we were to stop focusing on women wearing tefillin, Farber rubbishing Torah miSinai, and all the other “cool” issues of the day. At my bar mitzvah, two women showed up in shul, complete with tallis and yarmulke. I have no idea who they were, everyone ignored them, and we never saw them again. Isn’t it possible that if we treated every yahoo with the same “whatever” kind of attitude, we’d be able to accomplish more in other, more important areas, such as talmud torah? Just wondering.
edited
I thought all the talk about this died down already… guess not
Trust 789 – Nice question
oomis – Very well put. I was going to say similar, but the truth of the point is more validated when a woman states it instead of a man, so Kudos to you!
Nisht: All I see from your response is a “No it is not”, without any S’varah, a “your comment is disgusting” without explaining what disgusts you (you do pasken from dreams of Rebbe Nachman, don’t you realize that is a bit silly?), and an ad-hominem attack on the SAR principal. Is that really all you have to answer? Anyone else want to give it a shot?
I have no idea if the SAR principal or Rabbi Twerski are “not competent” (I wouldn’t know either if they bumped into me on the street), but that is not the argument that Rabbi Twerski made (which is what I was discussing, not the general incompetence of a specific individual). I guess you personally know the SAR principal (maybe you are a member of the SAR board?) and can attest to his incompetence? Otherwise would you care to explain why you believe he is incompetent? Remember that Hilchos Lashon Hara should apply.
Oomis: I also applaud (Softwords got there first!) your thoughts.
Trust 789: What I heard (IIRC) B’shem the Rav is that he suggested that the women put on Tefillin without Parshios for a month, and then revisit the decision whether to actually wear tefillin.
P.S. I actually (think I) have a very good analogy. A Sephardi girl who wants to make Brachos on Mitzvos Asah SheHazamn Grama.
What I heard (IIRC) B’shem the Rav is that he suggested that the women put on Tefillin without Parshios for a month, and then revisit the decision whether to actually wear tefillin.
The way I heard it was about a talis without tzitzis. After a month, he asked her how it was going. She said she never felt so elevated as when she wore her talis. So he told that that since it was working for her, she needn’t bother putting tzitzis on.
I have no idea if the story is true.
DY: You may be right, but the concept would be the same. Thanks for chiming in, and I would love to hear what you have to say.
Just heard this on a tape. After she told him she felt so elevated/inspired, the Rav told her that that is nice but what she did had absolutely no halachik value, and had she been a man, it would even have been a lav.
The famous story of the Rav and the women with the Tallis without Tzitzis isn’t true. It has been denied by most of his major Talmidim. The point is a very strong point though.
“Suppose a woman really wants to put on tefillin in order to feel more connected to Hashem and feel more kedusha, is there something else that someone can suggest that would be equivalent to donning tefillin that doesn’t come along with such controversy?”
Why not follow the blueprint set out by hashem, instead of looking for alternate ways to connect to him?
GAW,
If you are going respond with the following drivel “you do pasken from dreams of Rebbe Nachman” then it is pointless to respond to any of your comments. Your comments are apparently based on some alternative universe where, strangely, you might be considered intelligent.
Let’s see whether this comment finds favor in the moderator,s mind and let it through.
Most of this post concentrated-rightly- on tefillin but the last couple of comments (rebbe yid and DaasYochid) have added tallis to this ocnversation. This must be incorrect. There is much less of an objection to women wearing a tallis than tefillin. Please check the actual “loshon” of the Remo (orach chaim 38), who says,by tefillin, speaking explicitly of women, “mochin bejodon” but actually allows it by a tallis (orach chaim 17), where he does not single out women at all. He only adds the opinion of the “Ogur” that discourages it because it is “jehuro” (highmindedness). There is anecdotal history of chassidich rebbetzins wearing a talis koton-thereby negating the problem of the “Ogur’, yet executing the mitzva.
Nisht: Once again, all you have is an ad-hominem attack, this time on me. You don’t have to respond if you don’t want to do so, but if you do, please make it substantial.
APY: Because unfortunately, people get ideas in their heads due to the outside world. Then when told NO, it becomes forbidden fruit, which Chazal say is more tempting than “nomative” Avodah.
Gavra, I will bl’n chime in on the halachic aspect of this, but first I will say that although I don’t get the R’ Nachman’s dreams reference, I do object to NDG insulting your intelligence.
ROB, I wasn’t trying to compare, I was just saying over how I heard that story.
Syag, even in my version, that’s what he meant.
Briefly:
1) The Gr”a says, as I understand it, that even the Bavli would hold like R’ Avahu of the Yerushalmi (and like the P’sikta) that it’s assur for women, but it wasn’t relevant for the Gemara to bring his opinion because the Gemara was dealing with trying to find a Tanna who holds Shabbos z’man tefillin, not the issue of women putting on tefillin per se.
2) R’ Chaim was dealing with it from the angle of lo silbash (based on Levush), but we pasken that the issue is guf naki. The Mogen Avraham and Pri Megadim (in both Mishbitzos and Eishel) both say that it’s not an issue of women being less hygenic, but of being less careful because they’re not chayavos in tefillin. That didn’t change.
3) In Shoneh Halachos, R’ Chaim says it’s assur.
DaasYochid – IIRC, Na Nach was told to someone in a dream, and it somehow became the central mantra of Breslov. I could have also said via fax from the Rebbe, but that might be from the Ohel, not the Kever itself (after all, he still hasn’t run out of fax paper and ink yet! Must be transubstantiating it out of the air).
I now see that is was a paper found in a book. Same idea, is finding a paper in a book a “competent halachic authority”?
But it is a serious question. At what point (if any) does a Rov think even though I understand the sugyah, and I have others who agree with me, he can not say “If you want to go ahead, you can be Somech on that shittah”? Especially here where there is no real “Issur” involved, vs. a case where the alternative would result in Issurei D’Oraysa (such as a possibly traif chicken).
COW,
So when you falsely claim, based on no knowledge at all, “you do pasken from dreams of Rebbe Nachman” that is a reasoned comment. When I call you out on such drivel, that is ad hominem.
Fine.
Psak is not a variety store where one goes shopping for shittos.
I don’t understand, Gavra, the R’ma, Gr’a, M’B say it’s assur. The mainstream psak follows the Kol Bo.
By the way, saying Tehillim is a beautiful way to connect further with Hashem. Doing chessed by visiting a shut in, or cooking for someone who has just had a baby, taking someone shopping with you because she can no longer drive, being a member of the Bikur Cholim that visit people in hospitals, are all things that we women can do, and on our own timetable, to boot.
Except for disagreeing with the words, “by the way”, this answer is a very beautiful and proper answer. The rest of your reply, while certainly correct, I found to be somewhat insulting. What in the world does “my” question have to do with women in the world who don’t keep halacha and want to put on tefillin?
Trust 789: What I heard (IIRC) B’shem the Rav is that he suggested that the women put on Tefillin without Parshios for a month, and then revisit the decision whether to actually wear tefillin.
As others have stated, it was with tzitis. Regardless, you didn’t answer my question. Did you even read it?
Why not follow the blueprint set out by hashem, instead of looking for alternate ways to connect to him?
This is not an answer. Even if a woman does everything according to halacha, there are times in her life, when she could feel disconnected to Hashem and feel like she is lacking in kedusha. Sometimes she is a person who just craves more spirituality, sometimes it’s because she is going through a hard time in her life etc. She can try to get connected to Hashem through learning mussar sforim, listening to shiurim, become more stringent in tznius, or some of what Oomis suggested. And some women might think that perhaps if she will put on tefillin (which is a holy object), may help her get that connection (in the privacy of her home).
There is such a defensive attitude when a woman wants to do more. As though she has no right. She can be told to just focus on making a better kugal or cholent and she has fulfilled her tafkid, and not be busy with narishkeit like actually trying to be a more holy woman. She can be holy while pampering her baby too. That’s wonderful if she feels that way, but it doesn’t always work, (especially if she doesn’t have a baby at that time to pamper.)
And by the way, I have never put on tefillin, and I likely never will. But I am always seeking ways to bring more ruchnius into my life and into my home. And there were times that I gave tefillin a fleeting thought, even though I wouldn’t actualy do it. But I found the answers to my question here quite insulting.
Is this a way to answer such a question? By implying that any desire for more holiness is “only to feel more like a man”? I have found this attitude in real life too, and not having anything to do with putting on tefillin, but in learning, davening mincha or maariv, washing mayim achronim etc. And even if it’s necessary to bring up the issue of not having less than holy motives, there is a way to do it. And I think this is not the way.
I don’t understand, Gavra, the R’ma, Gr’a, M’B say it’s assur. The mainstream psak follows the Kol Bo.
BS”D
DY: Once again, I don’t really disagree with the (very narrow) point regarding women wearing Tefilin. Like I said, it is similar to a Sephardi girl who wants to say Brachos on Miztvos Aseh SheHazman Grama, where we would tell her that we Pasken like Maran who says not to. It is possible that a Rov might say to be somech on the Ramo in a Shaas HaDechak (and I don’t know if this is a Shaas HaDechak or not where he could be somech on the Rambam), and maybe even on an individual basis (as the next paragraph discusses), but to welcome it (Ashkenazi tefillin wearing or Sephardi brocha making girls) as a general rule in an Ashkanazi or Sephardi institution (resp.) would certainly not be advised.
The larger question flows from the issue made of who is “Raui LeHoros”, and be somech on a shittah that is not “mainstream”, but is still valid. Does a shul Rov have the right to advise a shoel who is his mispallel to allow what would be considered against “normative” Halacha if he feels it appropriate under the circumstances (even if it may not be a slam-dunk “Shaas Hadechak”)? Or does he have to ask the “Gadol HaDor” as Rabbi Twerski suggests? This (at first glance) would be similar to the shtetel Rov who allowed the Almanah to eat the chicken that had the shailah, even though it isn’t really a shaas hadechak not to have chicken on shabbos (and I would have thought here too it would be allowed).
I’m looking forward to your thoughts.
As others have stated, it was with tzitis. Regardless, you didn’t answer my question. Did you even read it?
Oomis and I obviously misread your question. With your new post and explanation, I’ll try again.
If the question is “How can I become closer to Hashem”, it would probably work best (as has been posted here quoting from those bigger than us) to get closer to Hashem by working to have serious Tefilah and recognizing that Hashem has His hashgacha in everything. Recognize once a day outside of Tefilah and thank Hashem for what He does (that may be from Rabbi Miller, but I don’t remember off-hand).
Nothing to do with tefilin (for either a guy or girl). I do apologize for misunderstanding your question.
Except for disagreeing with the words, “by the way”, this answer is a very beautiful and proper answer. The rest of your reply, while certainly correct, I found to be somewhat insulting. What in the world does “my” question have to do with women in the world who don’t keep halacha and want to put on tefillin?”
Oops, I certainly did not intend to insult you, so if somehow my words conveyed an insult, I apologize. I did not mean to imply that I think you fit into that category, and don’t think I did so, but clearly it led you to feel that way, and I am sorry.
HOWEVER, in my vast experience (and I do unfortunately have a lot of experience with this), the women who typically claim “they want to be closer to Hashem” (and again,let me be perfectly clear I am NOT referring to you in any way, shape or form), nearly always choose to do so in ways that are inappropriate and geared towards the male chiyuv, when in fact they don’t bother to do the mitzvos that as WOMEN they are required to do. Why is it that these types of women only feel fulfilled by taking on the trappings of a man?
I answered your question (and the “BTW” was not an inappropriate expression, either, so I think you commented unnecessarily on that inclusion) and then I also editorialized, I suppose, because your post reminded me of the types of women with whom I have come in contact over the last 40-50 years, who DO fit my description.
I commend you for wanting to connect closer with Hashem in non-Tefillin-donning ways. Hatzlacha rabbah. I stand by my other chessed-type suggestions and saying Tehillim.
No time to fully respond now, but I want to point out that what Sam said isn’t true, the same way what he said about the story with the car door slamming on R’ Moshe’s fingers isn’t true.
How do I know Sam’s making it up?
Because I was there when nobody told Sam that these stories aren’t true.
QED.
DY: Stop being Popa. Purim’s over.
And several of the Rav’s leading Talmidim have publicly denied this story on multiple occasions.
🙂
So I will assert, in a more DY-like, straighforward manner, that it’s hard to accept a negative assertion. Lo raisi eina raya.
I will try to trace my source for the story (which I haven’t claimed to be accurate because I want to verify).
I am rereading the thread, because I was responding to the “narrow” (?) point of what the halacha actually is, and I noticed a couple of posts from PAA to which I will respond first.
All I am doing is providing women who want to wear Tefillin a way in which to work out the sugya so that all potential reasons why a woman shouldn’t wear Tefillin are circumvented.
to which I responded,
Except that that’s not how halacha is supposed to work.
to which Patur Aval Assur responded:
“Except that that’s not how halacha is supposed to work.”
Correct if you adopt a codifier’s methodology of halacha. But if you adopt a Lurian methodology then this is exactly how halacha is supposed to work – you learn through the Gemara and come up with the best pshat and take the early authorities into account but by no means be bound by them. In fact if not for the special respect that is being accorded to the Rema, you will find that his view is a minority view.
Who says this is the best pshat?* Rabbi Harcsztark was not claiming his pshat was the best pshat, just the most convenient for him. So he reworked the halacha to fit his (possibly well-intentioned) whims. You’d doing the same with halachic methodology; although I’m honestly not familiar with what you call “the Lurian method”, it’s not how we pasken today, and one cannot recycle it at will.
*(As I think I previously explained, R’ Chaim wasn’t either claiming his pshat to be the best one; it was only a pshat in one mehalech, lo silbash, not in guf naki.)
Once again though, I am not advocating women’s Tefillin.
Nolens volens (that’s a term I just learned), you are.
“This is not an answer.”
It is called a rhetorical question for a reason. its answer is designed to start a thought process. Clearly the only thing you thought in response was that you got highly insulted because people dont take you seriously as a woman.
Everything else you wrote can be discussed with and addressed by someone who knows you well. I dont know you in the least bit, I dont know why
a)the things you currently do in your avodas hashem leave a void that needs to be filled. in fact
b)I dont know what you currently do or
c)how you currently do it or
d)why
these are things that you must discuss with someone who knows you. My rhetorical question was trying to point out the obvious. If someone truly believes in hashem, and wants to draw close to hashem and live his/her life according to the way hashem wants it and wants to have a real connection to hashem, then it is self understood that this person already understands that hashem is perfect and the path that he set out for people is perfect and if that is the case why are we looking to modify it in some way.
Torah Hashem Temimah, Meshivas Nafesh. You need someone to help you understand how to accomplish this in your life. It surely isnt me, and it likely isnt an anonymous person on this website either.
Who says this is the best pshat?* Rabbi Harcsztark was not claiming his pshat was the best pshat, just the most convenient for him.
Hear hear. If you read the letter to parents, I don’t think that he agrees this is the best P’shat, rather that this is what is best for these specific girls (and probably NOT convenient for him to have to deal with the fallout). This is opposed to the RAMAZ pricipal who made a blanket statement that he would have no problem with it.
Of all the “responses” to this discussion, I think Rav Berel Wein has written the best one. I’m sure it is available in any number of jewish media outlets, I happened to read it online in the current issue of the Flatbush Jewish Jornal.
Gavra,
P.S. That is not to say I agree, but to explain why Rabbi Twerski’s points MAY not be valid in this case. Did he speak to the girls in question so that he knows their specific intent?
Irrelevant. Rabbi Twersky makes his point despite being dan them l’kaf z’chus.
I see that you addressed this by attacking the analogy, by my point remains.
I know Rabbi Twerski tries to explain what it is not, but does not explain what it is.
Also irelevant. If there was nobody competent, we would have to leave the accepted psak as is, and not change it.
Can a Shul Rov no longer Pasken Shailos and must ask every question that comes to him to Rav Shteinman?
This is not a chicken shailah. This has global ramifications, and if Rabbi Harczstark doesn’t realize this, that would prove to me that Rabbi Twersky’s and nishtdayngesheft’s assessment of his competence is correct.
DY: My original point to Nisht discusses Rabbi Twerski’s point, and his analogy to an organ on Shabbos:
I would hope that even you would agree that the analogy is highly flawed. Why not straight out compare it to two high school girls who feel closer to Hashem by worshiping Jesus? On the other hand, one can also compare it to two girls who really want to hear Shofar on Rosh Hashana (to which it is certainly closer). Why compare it to one over the other?
And further down:
P.S. I actually (think I) have a very good analogy. A Sephardi girl who wants to make Brachos on Mitzvos Asah SheHazamn Grama.
IMHO, it is an overreach that takes away from his main point that the Remo is authoritative for Ashkinazim.
P.S. On a Yom Chol, on headphones, I would have thought there is no reason why they can’t listen.
To elaborate a bit, if what Rabbi Twerski is suggesting is that he would rather push the 18th century girls to the local Freischule where they will be completely lost than try to keep them doing Mitzvos and keeping Halacha (albeit with a Kulah that is not preferred), than I can’t agree. That goes right back to my main point regarding a Shul rabbi (or school principal) having leeway to be maikel (via a valid shittah) against “normative” Halacha due to extenuating circumstances.
This is not a chicken shailah. This has global ramifications, and if Rabbi Harczstark doesn’t realize this, that would prove to me that Rabbi Twersky’s and nishtdayngesheft’s assessment of his competence is correct.
Not a Chicken Shailah? The chicken Shailah also has “Global Ramifications” if it is answered in our “Global” world. Look at Dohaney Meats and the disaster (and Bizayon HaTorah) that ended up being.
That is exacly what I am asking you to opine on. What makes something a “Global Ramifications” shailah (and therefore must be passed by the shul Rov straight to Rav Shteinman or Rav Vosner (or maybe Rav Shachter is also allowed)), and what can he pasken himself? Or is the shul Rov not allowed to Pasken at all, since any question can be “Global” if the response gets into the wrong hands who will learn the wrong things from it?
A reminder on what Chazal said in Bava Basra 89B (and I’ve quoted this elsewhere):
?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? (???? ??) ?? ????? ???? ?’ ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ????? ??
How extenuating are these circumstances?
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