Quoting Fathers

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  • June 9, 2014 2:48 am at 2:48 am #612962
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    In Bava Kamma (21a) a question was sent to Rav Huna but he died before answering it. So Rabba Bar Rav Huna ??? ??? ??? ???

    ????? ???…

    In Kiddushin (31b) the Gemara says that when you quote your father, if it’s within the first 12 months of when he died then you say ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? and if it’s after 12 months then you say ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???

    Rabba Bar Rav Huna did neither!

    Now R’ Yaakov Emden says “perhaps it was after twelve months ???? ??????? ??”

    But I don’t see how this answers the question since Rabba did not say the correct formulation for after twelve months either.

    June 9, 2014 3:28 am at 3:28 am #1046681
    PulsingFlower
    Member

    He had a different girsa?

    June 9, 2014 3:39 am at 3:39 am #1046682
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    When you say “He” do you mean R’ Yaakov Emden or do you mean that Rabba had a different girsa of how you are supposed to quote your father?

    November 5, 2014 1:31 am at 1:31 am #1046683
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I was thinking that maybe quoting your father in writing is different from verbally quoting him and therefore this halacha wouldn’t apply in the Gemara in Bava Kamma where Rabba Bar Rav Huna quoted his father in writing. However, it wouldn’t explain what R’ Yaakov Emden was attempting to do.

    Shuv Matzasi that the Darchei Moshe (Yoreh Deiah 240) quotes the Shiltei Giborim quoting the Riaz:

    ????? ??”? ?????? ??? ??? ???????? (???? ??????? ??. ??? ?) ?? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ???????? ??????? ????? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??”? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??”? ?”? ???? ???? ????

    which would lend credence to my answer, namely that Rav Huna didn’t write ????? ???? ????? because the writing might still be around after 12 months when ????? ???? ????? is not appropriate. However, the Riaz clearly says that you would still write ???”? which Rav Huna didn’t do, and the Rema here and in Shulchan Aruch, rejects this shita.

    The Shach says that even within 12 months you can just say ?”?, the point being that after 12 months you can’t say ????? ???? ?????. But again, this wouldn’t explain why Rav Huna didn’t even say ?”?.

    ?”?

    November 6, 2014 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1046684
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    In my previous post, every time I wrote “Rav Huna” it should be “Rabba Bar Rav Huna”.

    Additioally, I retract my suggestion. The Gemara does not say that Rabba Bar Rav Huna responded in writing. The Gemara says ?”? ??? ?? ?? ????. I don’t know why I thought that it was in writing. It could be because the Gemara says ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??.

    Either way, the ?”? still stands.

    December 7, 2014 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #1046685
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    So I found that the Sefer Chasidim in siman 745 writes:

    ???? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ?”? ???? ?? ???? ????

    This combined with the Ya’avetz’s suggestion that this incident occurred after 12 months, would explain why Rabba Bar Rav Huna didn’t say ?”?.

    The problem is that the Sefer Chasidim is probably the only one that holds this. In fact the ????? ???? ?????? in siman 240 ose 25 says that the Sefer Chasidim is against the Braisa in Kiddushin. Maybe this gemara is a raya to the Sefer Chasidim?

    However, the ????? ???? ?????? continues to discuss this issue, and particularly amoraim quoting their fathers/rebbeim and although (surprisingly) he doesn’t he doesn’t mention this gemara, his words reveal several possible answers to my question. 1) Rabba Bar Rav Huna really did say it and the gemara was not recording his exact words. 2) Rabba Bar Rav Huna really did say it but that was because he verbally quoted his father, but the mesader hashas was putting it into writing, and as I pointed out in my earlier posts, there is an inyan to not put it into writing.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9198&st=&pgnum=178

    December 7, 2014 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1046686
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Another possible suggestion is that this halacha only applies when you are directly quoting your father. Whereas Rabba Bar Rav Huna was just saying that Rav Huna quoted Rav. (Pashtus this would be taluy on the machlokes of whether this halacha is only when you quote your father’s torah, or if it applies any time you mention your father.)

    December 8, 2014 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1046687
    SayIDidIt™
    Participant

    PAA, do we find anywhere in ?”? someone quoting his father and saying ????? ???? ????? or ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? The ???? d doesn’t write word for word conversation. Just what we need to know in that case.

    I have no idea if this is true…

    SiDi™

    December 9, 2014 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1046688
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anywhere in Shas where someone actually said it. And the ????? ???? ?????? seems to agree with this assumption. His explanation is that they did say it but the mesader hatalmud left it out. The truth is that I could have asked my kashya on several other gemaros, but the one in Bava Kamma is where I saw the Ya’avetz seemingly address it. I find it interesting though that the Sefer Chasidim brought a raya from Mar Bar Rav Ashi in that very gemara in Kiddushin when he could have had a better raya from one of the gemaros where an amora says ??? ??? ???.

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