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Avram: sadly, you are correct. In my community, there are plenty of people who go to daven at the local Chabad, but not because they appreciate Chabad for what it is. Their reason is the time davening starts. In the shul I daven in, we are sure to make zman krias shema, and the start time reflects this. There are some who don’t want to wake up that early on Shabbos, and would prefer to go to a place that officially starts at 9:30 (although it’s closer to 10:00 by the time they actually start.)
I would never go to that place, because the Rabbi there is meshichist – I won’t even walk into the building. When I asked a friend about that aspect, he just shrugged and said, “I don’t say yechi when the rest of them do.”I applaud Menachem on being rational about the Tzemach Tzedek re his views on beards. A great tzaddik and gaon, but nontheless not a daas rabbim, as Menachem wrote.
On the other hand, Menachem also wrote the following: “it is wrong when people play two sides on which rabbanim they use. Some people might accept Rav Shach as daas Torah who must be followed by all of klal Yisroel in regard to Chabad… yet when it comes to beards they are meikel like Reb Moshe …”
If people do the above because it suits them, then it is certainly not laudable, but it is still not definitely wrong. See Eiruvin 7a where the gemoro only says it is absolutely wrong if the chumra and the kula contradict each other.
>>>It is an ISSUR DEORAYSA to cut your beard.
Am haartzus. It depends on how you remove it
>>>There is a well known story that a Bachur came to Rav Shteinman and asked if he could shave his beard. etc.
Baloney. In the pictures of Rav Steinman as a bochur and yungerman he didn’t have a beard either.
>>>The Chafetz Chaim wrote a whole Sefer against cutting your beard
More like a pamphlet. And as Rav Moshe Feinstein told someone who was trying to get him to oppose shaving due to that pamphlet. “I wish some of the people who tumult about growing beards would have a tenth of the Yiras Shomyin of the bocurim who were learning by the Chofetz Chaim. None of them had beards”
>>>A Rabbi by the name of Reb Moshe Viner wrote a two volume set with all the mekoros and letters of the Gedolim about cutting your beard.
I didn’t look at the sefer but I’m 100% confident it is limited to those who oppose not having beards. With a possible exption made for those who hetter for shaving was too well known to ignore. Along with a reason not to pasken like. I’m sure it doesn’t include gedolim like Rav Gustman who emphatically told my father during some anti shaving with a shaver tumult “shoin ah upgepasknta shaaola as mehn meg” (it has already been paskened that you may use an electric shaver)
ujm,
As I clarified at the end of my post, I am referring specifically to someone who accepts their opinions with kabbolas ol.
i.e. If there are excellent proofs that it is wrong to shave (see at length in Hadras Ponim Zokon), and someone says “My posek is Reb Moshe, so I don’t care about your proofs, I’m shaving”.
And then, when it comes to Chabad, he says that the problem with them is that “daas Torah” is against them.
That is hypocritical.As I concluded, if someone is using his own logic it isn’t an issue.
My problem is with those who choose a separate “daas Torah” for every issue based on their liking.Rav belsky told me that rav moshe gave everyone he spoke with lots of titles in general, because he wanted his psakim to be accepted in a broad audience. It’s not a proof that he held of the Lubavitcher rebbe or thought about him positively or negatively; Lubavitchers harp on the titles a lot…it really doesn’t mean anything.
Dear Avira,
“Lubavitchers harp on titles a lot.”
So……………..
you must be Lubavitch🤣🤣🤣Avira,
I don’t think you have to accept Reb Moshe’s view on Lubavitch (because (a) you can hold like someone else, and (b) you can say that Lubavitch has changed) –
But it is quite difficult to say that Reb Moshe didn’t have an extremely favorable view of Lubavitch and the Rebbe.If you read the letters that I posted earlier (linked below), you’ll see that it’s much more than “lots of titles.”
He clearly supported the Rebbe and his activities very strongly, including various campaigns that Rav Shach and others strongly attacked.you need to check when and to whom Chofetz Chaim wrote this pamphlet.
Chofetz Chaim lived a long life, starting under the Czar, then, during WW1 and communist revolution, then in free Poland while things were changing quickly. His letters change from 1910s to 1930, starting with diukim of halocha, then to encouraging people not to overcharge refugees during WW1, and at the end, deploring people to have at least one kosher cheder per town and asking women who know how to read to teach the rest of the women basics of halochos niddah.
sechel, yes – generally things written by Moshe Rabbeinu are accepted.
And this Litvishe approach is well documented, starting w/ Mishna that meticulously documents multiple opinions. Somehow tannaim and amoraim did not follow one rebbe.
And as if “chasidishe” velt has such a sefer. Each of the groups have their own Rebbe.
Mishnah berurah, chofetz Chaim, mesilas yeshorim… Pretty universally accepted
@AAQ
I think you are getting @Sechel confused because in Chabad when you say “chasidish” you automatically mean Chabad and only Chabad. They don’t consider the rest “chasidish”. After all the rest don’t learn “chassidus”
>>>is there any sefer that is accepted by the litvish community, like if it says something there, everyone listens
Saying “the litvish community” is like saying “the frum community” or “chassidish community” (both of which would include Chabad).
The “litvish community” is just a section of the broader “frum community” which is a section of the broader “Jewish community” which is a section of the broader “mankind” (l’havdil).
In the litvish community itself, there are sub-communities of talmidim and followers of their own rabbanim and drachim.
So, yes, each of those communities has a sefer or rov whose derech they follow.Just as Lubavitchers follow the Chabad rabbeim, students of Rav Miller will follow him, followers of Rav Belsky will follow his drachim, etc.
If someone isn’t a student of such a prominent rabbi, he will still have his personal rov who he follows.I think Avira is right about mishna berurah. I understand that it was Chofetz Chaim intention to create a uniform halacha for modern times
The Chofetz Chaim’s intent with the mishna berurah was that it should be used when one doesn’t have a Mesorah or minhagim, otherwise, on any particular shaila or issue. The CC did not intend mishna berurah to replace one’s established Mesorah or minhagim.
Indeed, there’s a famous story where the Chofetz Chaim himself practiced a certain halacha differently than he paskened in mishna berurah. When someone noticed and asked him why he’s doing differently than what the mishna berurah paskened, he replied that his minhag avos was different. If memory serves me correctly, I think he used a kos for Kiddush that was smaller than the shiur given in the mishna berurah. (Although, I might be mixing stories regarding the kiddish kos with Rav Moshe?)
thank you. so why do they do a long shemone esrei by shacharis?
4) it seems that mincha ketzara has been done a lot longer than chabad’s existence. i was told its mashma from the orech hashulchan that they even did heicha kdusha for shacharis too.
btw i was at a sfard minyan where they did heich kdusha toothank you. so why do they dont they by hoiche kedusha shacharis?
Ujm, your stories/claims about Chofetz Chaim do not sound right.
Sechel, lots of gedolim write things that can be misunderstood and require a mesorah from their talmidim to understand. You’d be the first to say that god-in-a-body needs to be understood, supposedly, by people who understand it.
Rav Belsky was close to rav moshe and got shimush from him. I trust his understanding of rav moshe, and it’s the same reason why rav Moshe grew long payos…it was with an honest appraisal of his ability as a posek and a belief that American jewry needed a competent posek, amid a lot of rabbis who were ruining yiddishkeit or who were quasi conservative. That’s emes; truth is nore than uncle moishy songs about never telling a lie. Same way chazal say that we need to praise even an ugly kallah; that’s emes to Hashem.
If you want a first hand account of what rav Moshe held regarding Lubavitch and the last rebbe, talk to rav reuvain, or his grandchildren in the East side. Don’t take my word for it.
Dear Sechel,
What you are calling the litvishe velt is not a cohesive group. There are several major yeshivos and dozens of other leaders. There is almost no uniformity among them. A question could be like what is the go to sefer for Chofetz Chaim or BMG or Torah Vdaas or The Mir. And still, each one of those yeshivos had multiple Rosh Yeshivos with different views and so on. The two yeshivos that do things one way the most, are Telz and Brisk. But even then there are several yesshivos and each one changes different than the others.
To be honest, each Chabad is unique and doesn’t do things in the exact same way.
The Sefer Hadras Ponim is drivel. Never explains anything properly and brings ‘proofs’ from ambiguous lines or sources that clearly say the opposite. Rabbonim are quoted in the sefer that told me that they are purposely being misquoted.
Anybody who thinks that shaving comes from Rav Moshe, is completely ignorant on the topic.
Avirah, I’m sorry to say that you really disappoint me.
“uncle moishy songs about never telling a lie”
It wasn’t Uncle Moishy, it was The Marvellous Middos Machine! Shame on you!
Arso, sorry to disappoint; im losing my bekius in children’s media…
Avirah, I’m now insulted that you consider Marvellous Middos Machine children’s media. When I want to know something about middos that’s what I reference. Who has time to look up mussar seforim in Hebrew?
I must admit, I side with ARSo on this one
But if you look up seforim in Hebrew, your mommy, totty and Hashem will be so proud of you
“But if you look up seforim in Hebrew, your mommy, totty and Hashem will be so proud of you”
Touche!
@n0mesorah
“Since their knowledge is based on integration as opposed to foundations, they assume we are just lacking in all the confirming information. They do not understand that we are questioning the fundamental concepts”I found what you articulated here interesting. Out of curiosity, what is the reason for this?
Dear Eeee,
Thank you!
I wrote a long post that gives a lot how Chabad got to this point. If you are asking why they know it in such a manner, I would pin it on their starting with these teachings when they are too young to have critical thinking skills. But it could be anything. Their system is designed to produce this.
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