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The Ben sorer u moreh is killed not because he has incurred a liabilty of death but because it is a Chesed to remove him from the world now, before he inevitably WILL commit terrible sins. Why then does he get the worst kind of death (skilah). Yes the sins that he will commit perhaps might incur skilah (i don’t know if this is true, but even if it were true) but he is NOT being punished now for future sins; he is being killed to PREVENT him from committing those sins.
Why does he get skilah?
80 –
One of the sections of Parashah Ki Seitzei sets out the laws of the ben sorer u’moreh who steals meat and wine from his parents and is put to death. Rashi explains that a ben sorer u’moreh is killed to save him from his own destiny, since he is destined to be a murderer and a thief.
Several meforshim observe that this appears to contradict another well-known statement of Rashi, specifically his comment to Bereishis 21:17, that even though Hashem knew that Yishmael would one day oppress the Jewish People, He saved Yishmael from dying of thirst because, at that moment, Yishmael was righteous (or innocent). Is a person’s future taken into account when he is judged, or not?
The Maharal answers that there is no contradiction. Rather, different rules apply to judgments in the Heavenly court (Yishmael) and a human court (ben sorer u’moreh). Specifically, the role of the human court system is to save wrongdoers from the punishment that they will obtain at the hands of Heaven. If it will further that goal, a human court can take a person’s future into account. (Gur Aryeh)
Elsewhere, the Maharal observes that the Heavenly court takes into account in its judgment whether the sinner has repented. However, a human court may not do that. Maharal explains that the role of the human court is to distance a person from evil. A human court is charged solely with looking at a person’s “dark side.” In contrast, the Heavenly court judges the whole person. (Netiv Hateshuvah ch.2, as explained by R’ Yehoshua Hertman shlita, in his annotated edition of the Maharal’s writings) [Torah.org]
Yet the Gur Aryeh that was quoted states a Beis Din can take a person’s future into account.
If I am understanding the Gur Aryeh correctly, he is saying the Beis Din can take into account the child’s future behavior and punish him for that future behavior.
The Bais Din takes nothing into account here except whether or not the child fits the criteria to be poskined a BSuM. His din is already established specifically in the Torah. The Bais Din is taking nothing into account except whether or not the criteria for BSuM have been met. They are not deciding a punishment.
Why did the Torah poskin skilah?
What I am postulating is that, per the Gur Aryeh’s understanding, the reason that the Torah poskin’s skilah, is because the Torah is taking into account the BSuM’s future behavior and punishing him for that future behavior now.
Perhaps its done as a warning for any future BSU? Also, BSU is really theoretical right? There never were any…
Is it not in lieu of future punishment?
From Rav Shimshon Pinkus, hat tip to Hebrewbooks.org:
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Sounds like, the Torah is saying he will Vadai be chayav skilah in the future, so we give it to him now and save lives in the process.
I found a Yalkut Yehuda quoting a chizkuni- a ben sorer umoreh has a din of rodef, and we kill him to save others. But this still leaves your question- why sekila? For that we have Rav Pinkus- he will be a vadai killer, so we give him the sekila now.
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BS”D
Isn’t skila the most serious of the big four and therefore covers all offenses? Maybe we assume that a ben su”m will grow up to violate just about everything (what we expect from a shababnik or bum today) so we give him a little preventative medicine as in the harshest possible punishment before the offense(s) presumed and expected are even committed.
I think that skila is the most “public” type of misa give by beis din and that one of the reasons for it is “v’kol yisrael yishmi’u v’yira’u”. I don’t have time now to check if the Torah ever uses that lashon by any misa other than skila. The fact that he is being put to death is a chesed for him; the way that it is done is as a warning for others.
Acording to most ben soirer “Loy Hoyah v’loy yihyeh!”
so why is it a parsha in the torah? Drush V’kabel Schar.
Thank you mod 42 for pointing it out.
The reason is for us to learn from it. Getting the harshest(acording to some)Misah
is L’man Yishme’uh V’yiro’uh. To show how bad it is what he will become,
he will not be able to control himself. & also as mentioned, it is the misah
he would’ve been mechuyav. We are just giving it to him L’mafreah.
Al Shem Soifoy. This in itself should discourage such behavior in its
premature stages.
The daat zekenim says that even if he would kill in the future his punishment would be with the sword not sekila?
The answer is because he doesn’t listen to his parents and that’s considered cursing them, the punishment for cursing the parents is sekila. So he is being punished for this sin. Baal tosfot.
The Ramban says like mod42- he doesn’t deserve misa but he gets skila to have a chastising effect on those watching. He compares this to a zakein mamrei and a meisis, both of whom didn’t do anything to deserve their deaths but get it for the sake of the onlookers to be chastised.
Um, doesn’t say by Yishmael “Basher hu sham”, that Hashem judged him as he was at that moment, and not for what he would do in the future? I just heard a dvar torah regarding this during Y”T as an explanation for why people would be justified in taking on extra chumros that they don’t usually do during aseres ymei teshuva. Because Hashem is judging us as we are now, so if they are only eating pas Yisroel or chalav Yisroel now, though they don’t usually do so it is proper bec. of “basher hu sham”.
So how might this tie in to what is being said about the bs”u?
NY Mom, it sounds like from Rav Shimshon Pinkus ZT”L (and from the Chinuch ) that Yishmael’s descendants didn’t have to do that, while a Ben sorer Umoreh will definitely commit bad aveiros in the future. Hashem knows what evryone will do in the future. However, that doesn’t mean they don’t have bechira. A ben sorer umoreh, by contrast, has already started down a path which will DEFINITELY lead to the reprehensible actions. He no longer has a bechira, and he sealed his own fate.
The answer is because he doesn’t listen to his parents and that’s considered cursing them, the punishment for cursing the parents is sekila. So he is being punished for this sin. Baal tosfot.
That’s very nice, except for the simple fact that there are definite parameters to cursing one’s parents and simple disobedience or even direct disrespect, while being forbidden, does not equate with cursing. We don’t stone people who simply disobey their parents.
The Wolf
he will be a vadai killer, so we give him the sekila now.
So then where’s his bechira?
The Wolf
He no longer has a bechira, and he sealed his own fate.
Ah, I didn’t see this before I put up my last post.
Even so, how can you say that? Don’t we have it as a tenet that a person is *always* capable of doing teshuva (as long as your name is acher 🙂 )?
The Wolf
The Torah states that one who curses his parents is Chayiv Skilah – death by stoning.
Yes, you said that before. But the fact of the matter is that that is *not* the halacha. We don’t stone people for simple disobedience. We do so if they hit their parents or if they curse them — but not for simple disobedience.
The Wolf
so go argue with the Daas Zekainim MiBaalei HaTosfos
I thought that’s what I was doing….
The Wolf
Wolfish, does a crack addict have bechira if he will take the next hit or not? His earlier actions sealed his deal.
I asked my husband for the answer. 😉
Wolfish, does a crack addict have bechira if he will take the next hit or not?
Not comperable. Stealing a tarteimar of meat and drinking some wine is not physically addictive.
The Wolf
Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tzl states that anyone, like Paroh, can have his bechirah taken away by HaKodesh Barchu in certain inyonim. How that relates to Acher, ben Dosai and others, I don’t know.
I’m not familiar with ben Dosai, but I always had my own thoughts on the other two cases.
Pharaoh’s free will wasn’t taken away from him — rather it was restored to him.
Acher’s free will to do teshuva wasn’t taken away from him — rather the bas kol said that even if he did do teshuva it would not be accepted. (I have problems with this approach too, but that’s for another time).
The Wolf
The sugya in Sanhedrin makes it very clear over and over again
Does it? I have to admit it’s been several years since I learned that perek of Gemara. Can you point to one specific place?
The Wolf
I didn’t know 80 was baal hatosfot! I thought he/she was kapusta!!;)
My husband likes it when I ask him these type of questions, he really has a good head, ba’h.
Wolfish, if the idea that his career path is defined for him doesn’t sit well with you, you can always go with the Ramban’s pshat.
Mod-80, the whole assumption of this thread, that the Misa is not a punishment is a mistake. Wherever you will look, you’ll see it being referred to as a punishment. Also, although it will never happen, we must understand it as if it will.
The Gemara asks how we can punish him for eating and drinking, and the Gemara answers that it will never happen. Don’t take this to mean that it doesn’t make sense. It is more an answer to an emotional question. Although the logic is pure that he will definately end up killing people, it is still something that is not in front of our eyes, and therefore it is a hard pill to swallow.
Being that we have a klal that Diracheha Darchei Noam, that the Torah is sweet and peaceful, this is one Mitzva that won’t fit that bill. therefore, Hashem sees to it that it will never happen.
Please learn through the Gur Arye on this issue. He answers all these questions raised. He says, as mentioned above, that Beis Din Shel Matta punishes to prepare the person for Beis Din Shel Maala. Also, he says that this is the Din of Torah. Beis Din is merely doing the Din of Torah.
The Gur Arye also answers your Skila question. He says that when we kill a murderer, it is for a single murder. On the other hand, this person is being judged because of his future, which contains multiple murders.
In order to better to understand the addiction, we must keep in mind that what makes the Ben Sorer Umorer impossible is the fact that he must be brought up in the most perfect conditions. That is the reason, the Maharal says, that his parents must have the same height and voice (whatever that means). In such a circumstance, when he steals from his father in order to eat Davka special meat and special wine, he is walking the path of complete evil. If it were for hunger or sweets, that would be a different story.
The inyan of having the same voice I have heard is that both his parents teach him the same values, and he doesn’t get mixed msgs. Because nobody is ever brought up under optimal conditions, it is only a hypothetical, and never happens. Drosh vkabel schar.
My main question is that it seems to take a pessimistic view that some people have no hope. I believe I heard in the name of the Baal Shem Tov that the worst aveira in the whole Torah is to think one is too big of a sinner to do tshuvah. So I am not sure how that fits here. I prefer the Baal Shem’s viewpoint.
Pashuta Yid,
You might like the Baal Shem Tov better than the Torah, but he liked the Torah better than himself. The proof that it is never too late to fix up, is that Hashem kept you alive. The proof that it is too late for the Ben Sorer Umore is that Hashem said to kill him.
What you say about mixed messages is very nice, although it’s a drop out of the pshat. The reason I wrote “whatever that means” is simply because I’m not sure what it means. It might mean literally the same voice. That, however would be a Mum on the part of one of them. It might mean the same kind of voice, or the same voice had they been on the same pitch.
The point is the same, though, as what you said. Their message must be the same, and they must be working together with one plan.
In stead of switching or reverting to other dimensions of Torah, first understand the Omek Hapshat. Sometimes, after learning through the Drush, Remez and Sod, you can come back to the Pshat with a new understanding.
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