Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

Qwert, plenty of the anti messianic and/or anti neo chabad posters are present; there’s no shortage of it. Almost everything i post gets approved; if something isn’t, it’s usually pretty offensive and personal

Joseph, when I said “There was a time”, I meant there was a single instance where it occurred. Thankfully, I’ve never had that situation since, so it was only the one time.
As for who my Rebbe quoted, yes, I don’t remember exactly. But I do remember my Rebbe saying it, and as I said, I witnessed him spill out an entire bottle of wine at a sheva brachos because the name of the Rav on the bottle was a meshichist.

Qwert, i believe it’s an arizall or a zohar that writes that the chazir will chew its cud when moshiach comes. The Torah doesn’t change cv”s, it’s the chazir that changes into a kosher animal.

There’s a famous chakirah in yeshivos if the kosher simanim are a cause or a sign; meaning if a cow is born without split hooves, is it still kosher? Do the 2 simanim cause the animal to be kosher, or are they merely signs of a kosher species, but whatever happens in individual animals is irrelevant.

The future taharah of the chazir implies that the simanim are causes, not signs.

To Avira

You’ve decided to defend the Rebbe vis a vis the Chazir’s future status. Fine, I’ll help you. I acknowledge your Kabbalistic sources and therefore the Rebbe has every right to say that in the Messianic Era pig meat will be Kosher. Here’s the problem. According to sechel83 and many other Lubavitchers, we are already in the Messianic Era. This said, why hasn’t the Briyah of the Chazir changed? Check, it’s your move. Obviously, I’m being semi-facetious. The Gemara says that Hashem has nothing in this world other than the Four Amos of Halacha. Judaism is a Halacha based religion. By no means am I dismissing or impugning Kabbalah(I descend from great Galicianer Kabbalists in Europe). This said, Hashem clearly tells us in Parshas Nitzavim that the esoteric is His domain while we live in the world of Niglah. This is lost on Chabad, but it looks like you also need to have your head straightened out.

To Menachem Shmei

I’m glad you acknowledge that you’re unable to argue against me because of my superior logic. I’m not impressed with your citations from the Rebbe. He has rejected open Pshat in the Gemara as I clearly explained and so I don’t trust a word that he wrote. Checkmate.

Ysiegel, it is strange. Usually, if there is a disagreement between a Gemora and a Medrash, we follow the Gemora. What is his proof in short?

@mdd thats my point, because we learn chassidus at length and in depth we understand it correctly (look in derech mitzvosecha, shoresh mitzvas hatfilah) the people who dont learn chassidus, see one line out of context and go crazy. and then scream at us for learning kabala cuz they thnk we understand it the same way they do. so whats your pshat?

@arso one of the 13 ikrim is that there is nevuah, the rambam gives simanim on who is a navi which we all saw by the rebbe, signed a psak din that reads as follows
הרינו קובעים בזה פסק הלכה על-פי דין תורתנו הקדושה – מבוסס על ההלכה שברמב”ם פרק ז’ הלכות יסודי התורה הלכה א’, פרק ט’ הלכה ב’ ופרק י’ הלכה א’ – שכבוד קדושת אדמו”ר מלך המשיח יש לו דין נביא ומפורש בשיחותיו הקדושות שמרמז על עצמו שהוא נביא ומובן משיחותיו הקדושות שהוא הוא המלך המשיח, וכן עודד שירת “יחי אדוננו מורנו ורבינו מלך המשיח לעולם ועד”, וכבר אמר לעיני כל ישראל ולעיני כל העולם דברים העתידים להיות ובאו דבריו ונתקיימו במילואם ב’מלחמת ששת הימים’ וב’מלחמת המפרץ’ ועוד ועוד.
ועל כן מחויבים אנו לשמוע לכל אשר יאמר לנו מגדר החיוב לשמוע לדברי הנביא, ובכלל זה – שהוא המלך המשיח ויתגלה אלינו מיד ממש
so if you know any chazal (which from your last attack, it seems not so) you will ask from sotah, well then you will have the same question on anava and yiras chait.
so learn the whole sicha inside, and you wont have questions.

To sechel83

Nobody is arguing that Nevuah is a legitimate concept. The problem is that the Gemara explicitly said that Nevuah ended during the 2nd Temple period and will not be restored until Moshiach comes. But we know that the Rebbe has no problem rejecting Gemaras when they don’t suit his agenda. This is another example of the Rebbe putting himself above the Torah. I accept that the Rebbe was a genius. I just don’t believe or trust anything he said.

Qwert, it seems that you are caught in a state where if someone is wrong about some things, they have no valuable things to offer and they can’t be right about certain details or inyonim. The chazir thing has zero to do with chabad, as it’s in chazal; you will get a lot more respect and people will listen to you if you just admit when you’re wrong or misinformed about something – i believe it’s ridiculous to think that the Lubavitcher rebbe, or any other person who is not alive(or alive, since no one has accomplished the criteria yet) to be moshiach, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the chazir being kosher when moshiach in fact comes.

Lubavitchers, to their credit, have not changed halacha to match lost-moshiach times, at least not yet. They don’t bring karbonos, or do anything else that we need to wait for moshiach to allow, and that includes eating chazir – the fact that its siman hasn’t changed is obvious. Now will their movement go full shabsai tzvi and change halacha, like saying shem hameforash? Who knows. I’m just relaying what the facts on the ground are at this time.

It’s my personal opinion that chabad will soon splinter into two groups; those who accept both messianic and elohistic teachings, and those who go back to old school chasidus, brushing off god-in-a-body as just something they don’t understand, and taking the rest of their rebbes teachings, 99% of which are not problematic in yiddishkeit.

But above all, keep it civil; no one’s changing their mind from ranting. The same way Lubavitchers who go on and on about how misguided and inferior they think litvaks are doesn’t change a
– and only strengthens – how we think

To mdd1

The only thing Lubavichers want to do in these threads is to keep us off balance because they can’t deal with the truthful, logical arguments we present. I think you’re doing a great job, so keep it up. The only advice I’d offer is that you ignore everything the Lubavichers say and keep pounding away at them. You can’t change them because the Rebbe is their god, but hopefully, some people who haven’t yet seen the light will change their tune when they see the evidence.

To Avira

I have no intention of trying to guess what will happen to Chabad but you’re certainly free to speculate. As for the Chair issue, it’s much ado about nothing. I just used it as a red herring to demonstrate the fallacy of Chabad theology. Again, according to Chabad pigs will be kosher when Moshiach comes so how can they say that the Rebbe is Moshiach? It’s simple logic. All I’m doing, along with some terrific posters, is pointing out some of the flaws in Chabad’s belief system as well as issues that must be raised about the Rebbe. Do I agree that the Rebbe was a supergenius? Absolutely. And his worldwide Shluchim movement is tremendous. Moreover, his explanations of Rashi are extraordinary. So I’m not writing him off by any means. But at the same time anyone who rejects any word of the Torah, be it Oral or Written must be taken to task. And I’m not interested in his proofs, just as I wouldn’t be interested if Rabbi Sacks ZL objected to, say slavery, and wrote the most incredible thesis(of course he’d never do such a thing). But the Rebbe did. Avira, we’re not that far apart. Admittedly I turn people off because I sound cocky. It’s the fact that I know I’m telling the truth that emboldens me.

Dear Avira,

“but I have no issue with his toras on other matters…i still choose not to learn them regularly because my rebbeim did not hold him to be a gadol byisroel warranting such.”

Does this mean that you learn everyone that your rebbeim hold of their gadlus? I thought it goes by the capabilities of the student. Not the perspective of the master.

Nevuah stopped with chaggai zecharya and malachi – Sanhedrin 11a. It means it’s gone. It will return when moshiach comes.

There’s a famous Gaon which says that nevuah was taken to even the “zeh leumas zeh” after the YH for avodah zara was nisbatel through the anshei kenesses hagedolah; he writes it on seder olam perek 30, note 12

“Dear Qwerty,

“The Gemara explicitly said that Nevuah ended during the 2nd Temple period and will not be restored until Moshiach comes.”

There is no such Gemara.“

I’m not trying to defend qwerty but there is a Mishnah to that (can’t remember where, something about זהירות, פרישות, רוח הקדש, אליהו הנביא something of that sort

sechel to me: “one of the 13 ikrim is that there is nevuah, the rambam gives simanim on who is a navi which we all saw by the rebbe, signed a psak din that reads as follows…”

I never suggested that I don’t believe in nevuah c”v. I just don’t believe that the Rayatz was a navi and neither was his son-in-law. The crazy psak that you quote that the Lubavicher rebbe is a navi is just plain worthless and stupid. If fact, it’s disgusting.

To “pasken” that the rebbe was a navi (and Mashiach) from the fact that he alluded to it himself in a sicha makes a joke of all real piskei halocho! MenachemShmei would never have quoted that because he would have realised that we would make a laughing-stock of him if he did. I think you should learn from him not to quote something that is so easily negated and laughable.

You also attacked me ad hominem (I’m fine with that by the way) and, as usual, ignored actual statements that I cited as ridiculous, e.g. the proof of Messianism from the fact that Beis Mashiach has the gematria of 770.

And while we’re at it, let’s drag up some old stuff that has never been answered and always been avoided.
1. The fact that Lubavich holds it’s a “kula al pi chassidus” to eat Seuda Shlishis (that’s an exact quote of what I was told).
2. That according to nigleh one is pattur from sleeping in a sukkah if one is mitzta’er that he is able to fall asleep! (That is most certainly my favorite.)
3. That trees that are so far away that they cannot be seen can interefere with the working of a sundial between the hours of two and five in the afternoon every day of the year. (As quoted by the Rayatz in his stories.)

To paraphrase the Kohein Gaodl on Yom Kippur, there is a lot more in Lubavich than I have quoted here that shows that they are off the beaten track (some of it close to apikorsus, and some over the line). But they will continue to dissemble and avoid at all costs facing up to those criticisms, instead attacking ad hominem or resorting to the hoary old chestnut (I don’t even know what a hoary chestnut is, but I like the expression) of, “You are quoting out of context. If you learnt more chassidus you’d understand.” I may not have learnt as much Chabad chassidus as you have, but I have defnitely learnt more than the average non-Lubavicher, and I definitely DO NOT understand.

I also don’t understand the allowing and even encouraging of drinking alcohol to excess, the levels of mixing of genders which is not found among other chassidim, the low level of tznius (which has been decried by a number of Lubavichers in the coffee room and elsewhere) and the denigrating of all other groups of chareidim that is so prevalent in Lubavich.

I would like to make one thing clear. I am not a believer in the Lubavicher rebbe (as if you didn’t already know) but I believe he had myriad zechuyos that I don’t have. His international Chabad houses are fantastic places of “refuge” for businessman and tourists all over the world. Nonetheless, his hashkafos and views have led to a great decline amongst Lubavicher chassidim and those under their influence in many areas, not limited to those I have mentioned above. And his implicit insistence that nothing other than Lubavich is worthy in the frum world has shown that he cannot be accepted by the vast majority of chareidim as a true gadol beYisrael.

To Coffee addict

Why don’t you want to defend me? I’m a really nice person and our views are in lockstep. Moreover, I backed you up when you asked if Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is perfect. They changed the subject and called him a Tzasddik Gomur, but your reference to being perfect was spot on.
To ARSo
Great posting. Not only did the Rebbe say that the Rayyatz was a Novi, but in the Gutnick Chumash he commented that a number of the Baalei Tosafists were Neviim(I don’t recall the ones he enumerated.) The Rebbe felt that he could challenge or reject Gemaras which didn’t suit his own agenda. That doesn’t negate his genius and his remarkable accomplishments it just means that his Torah can not be trusted. All the Rebbe’s sources are meaningless because they “proved” what he wanted to believe. Obviously, his followers blindly accept his every word as Torah Misinai. No human being in our times can argue against the Gemara as that would imply that he believes he can match the logic and foresight of a Tanna or Amora.

Re, Sanhedrin; nomesorah said that there is no such gemara. I said that there is and cited it – why do you take that as “quoting a random line”?

One poster correctly said that chazal say that nevuah ended by the churban, another said that there is no such gemara, and I said that there is. Has the Lubavitcher rebbe’s novel opinions so defined your way of thinking that you can’t distinguish between chidush and pashtus/the way every other section of klal yisroel thinks? There is literally no other group of jews who think nevuah is a thing in our time…. except some people who are into rabbi kook, i think, who called….. meir kahanah(sic!!!) a navi. But I don’t think that rabbi meant it as literally as the Lubavitcher rebbe anyways.

Coffee, you’re referring to the braisoh of rebbe pinchas ben yair, which the mesilas yeshorim is based on. It says that תורה מביאה לידי זהירות, זהירות מביאה לידי זריזות, זריזות מביאה לידי נקיות, נקיות מביאה לידי פרישות, פרישות מביאה לידי טהרה, טהרה מביאה לידי חסידות, חסידות מביאה לידי ענוה, ענוה מביאה לידי יראת חטא, יראת חטא מביאה לידי קדושה, קדושה מביאה לידי רוח הקדש, רוח הקדש מביאה לידי תחית המתים”

Torah leads to all of the above, and ruach hakodesh is still something we have – that’s not nevuah. The braisoh does not mention nevuah, and ends with techias hamaysim, which is something any amora was capable of according to the Arizal.

Menachem, i heard it quoted often in yeshiva, notably from a rebbe of mine who was a belzer chossid. I looked around online and found people who have heard it too but similarly can’t find a source for it.

Menachem, the gemara isn’t a kasha on the Lubavitcher rebbe. Anyone who says that there is nevuah – you can say it’s from kabalah, or from 100 kal.vechomers to be metaher a sheretz – the gemara is the gemara. The rishonim don’t take the gemara out of its pashtus. It’s not a “kasha” on the Lubavitcher rebbe; the Lubavitcher rebbe is saying something against not only a gemara, but a clear mesorah from chazal until today.

Again, has any singular individual besides shabsai tzvi and nasan from gaza claimed to be a navi since the churban? At all…anyone?

So the Lubavitcher rebbes claims are against all of that. It’s not cowardice, just lack of interest, and i like to keep my head uncluttered by divergent opinions, this includes neo Lubavitch, religious zionism, ortho-maskilim, modern orthodoxy, fringe breslov, and other divergent groups. My head isn’t a reshus horabim, i value my sechel and my hashkofos.

Qwert – i think you’re misunderstanding me. There’s no contradiction between what i said yesterday and today. When i said that chabad will ultimately embrace the 99% of the Lubavitcher rebbes teachings which are not problematic, i am referring to things which are avodah zara or apikorsus related. Thinfs which can take a person out of klal yisroel. They’ll still have weird stuff like what’s being discussed here, but believing that there can be nevuah nowadays is not, at least i don’t think, apikorsus. It’s just a mistake. Lots kf groups have mistakes; it doesn’t make them invalid and chutz lemachaneh. There are only a couple of things which the Lubavitcher rebbe said/wrote which are assur to repeat, god-in-a-body being the chief example.

And horaya, the Gaon and ramchal never said things which were against chazal. Others did, including the Lubavitcher rebbe.

To Avira
Let me elucidate. The quote, as I remember it, (I’m probably off a word or two) , “The Vilna Gaon was the best friend that Chassidus had because without his attacks we would have abandoned Nigleh entirely.” This is in line with what Avira said. Recently I received some background information. The Aruch Hashulchan got his Semicha from the Tzemach Tzedek and he heard this quote. The Aruch Hashulchan’s son the Torah Temimah then publicized it which is why so many know about it. Of course Lubavichers deny that it was ever said.

Qwert, i have to take issue with some other things which you’re saying, which i believe to be in error. The “chamushim” which chazal darshen as being 1/5(aside from the pshat of “armed”) is not universally agreed upon. There were different midrashim. How that will work when moshiach comes isn’t simple – we need to go back to that medrash and figure out why in fact so many were not zocheh to be redeemed.. it’s because they didn’t want it; they were comfortable the way they were. So if klal yisroel is the same way, the same thing will happen. if more jews are metzapej l’yeshuah, less will be left behind.

Re, chasidim thinking that their rebbe is “moshe” – this has a source, sort of. The zohar says that every gadol is ispashtusa demoshe in every generation; the continuation, the spiritual powers Moshe had were passed down from generation to generation. Chazal call each other Moshe when they say a sharp thing, etc…so it’s not as if chabad invented the idea. Chabad did, however, invent the idea that only THEIR rebbe is like that and they extended it to silly things like thinking that their rebbe was bigger than the rambam because the latter didn’t have access to chasidus.

Menachem, please provide one person called a navi in a serious context(not the raavads insult of the rambam calling his words divrei nevuah sarcastically) and I’ll take the idea seriously. What we find poskim sometimes doing is euphemisticly calling anotjer gadol’s writings nevuah because they can’t find a source for it in fhazal; the raavad used it sarcastically, they use it respectfully, but it’s clear that that’s their intention.

Find one place where rhe rishonim say “so and so was a navi” or “this person heard the dvar Hashem” or the like – you won’t find it. Anywhere.

As for the mishi….batla….those are discussed. They mean that the highest manifestation of anivus, yirah, etc…are gone. That’s because it’s obvious that one can fear Hashem in any time and place; those gemaras aren’t referring to a specific phenomenon. Nevuah is a phenomenon which chazal are saying no longer happens. The rishonim do not say on that gemara “nevuah isn’t so common now,” it’s been taken as a given by the rishonim and achronim for 2000 years. Universally.

Avira, agreed about the nevuah. About who is going to be redeemed — it says it many places in NaCh and the Gemora that it will be a time of jugdement, and one has to be enough of a tzadik to be redeemed. It is just the derech of classical Chassidism (and, by extension, of Chabad) to try to “annul” any judgement over Jews. Hence, “no Jew will be left behind”.