Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

Okay, now I have my answer. Nomesorah can’t be Chabad because no Lubavicher will ever say anything positive about Rav Shach, much less say that he was superior to the Rebbe in any way. I’m still confused, however by Nomesorah’s earlier post in which he states that heretical statements do not affect a person’s religious status.

Dear Qwerty,

I am not Chabad at all. I have visited for a day in various Chabad Yeshivos and Shuls.

You are way off of normative chareidi outlook if you think Chabad and Christianity are two but yet the same. Almost everyone considers Cabad full Yidden. They count them for a minyan. They break bread with them. We trust their kashrus and shechita, geirus, kiddushin and gittin. I could go on for a thousand words describing how Chabad is functioning within the rest of Klal Yisroel. You don’t need to be a Lubavitcher to say this. Take a look around. It’s a fact. What makes Satmar or Ger or Skver not Christianity?

Secret societies do not come from Christianity. They come from fools who can’t find the truth and push conspiracies forever. They rise and grumble multiple times in each generation and they keep rolling into the next cycle. Jews are not immune from this.

I would post one more line to explain what I stand for. But it would be misconstrued.

To Nomesorah

I’m glad you clarified that you’re not Chabad, As for your insinuation that I am equating Chabad with Christianity. I never made such a statement. What I did say is that Lubavichers treat the Rebbe like a god. They attribute powers to him as if he’s different than anyone who’s ever lived. I don’t think that any rational person would challenge that position.

DaMoshe: Is that’s a normative position, you and the rebbe would have no problem saying which Rebbe that is. In fact, you would both be proud to name him and make it well known this position of his.

So, DaMoshe, what is the name of said Rebbe and which Yeshiva?

To UJM
Rav Shach and Dr. Berger said this clearly. There are many Rabbis and laymen who agree with their positions. There’s no need to name them.

Dear Ujm,

I have heard it from several Elder Rosh Yeshivos. Some mentioned specific names some didn’t. It’s easy to figure it out.

RavShach may not have said it, but it was the cause for him to take up all his battles in Chareidi Israel Public Life.

I am surprised that you do not know whom DaMoshe is referring to.

Dear Qwerty,

You did not say that, it was a different poster. Now it is two posters. They are not even making an argument. Maybe when they say Christianity, they mean Breslov or Brisk. Okay, Chabad is like Breslov or Brisk.

You say that Lubavitchers treat their rebbe like a god. The Gemara tells us to have awe of our masters like the Awe of Heaven. Both Lubavitchers on this thread admitted that the Rebbe could have made a mistake.

Chabad atributes special powers to tzaddikim and they think of their rebbe as a real big tzaddik. this is not very unique to Chabad. Though they do have more of a thought system for it. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the Sefer Tanya. If the sefer is no good, than go check all the classics and see who agrees with the Tanya. It’s a sugya to learn no different than any other.

My position in regard to Chabad is that there is no reason to analyze their beliefs. Their positions are no less absurd than Satmar or Ger or Skver. And atleast they have a legitimate history of these concepts and can trace the outlines of their ideas throughout the centuries.

Since you are the one attacking, it is on you to explain why it is problematic for people to have absurd ideas. And why we should debate them as if they need to drop it or face excommunication.

To Nomesorah

Thanks for clarifying your position and I’ll gladly respond. You’re arguing that Lubavichers are like all other Chassidim in that they attribute godlike qualities to their Rebbe. That’s disingenuous. No Chassidic sect claims that their Rebbe is Moshiach, that their Rebbe is/was a Novi, that their Rebbe is still alive despite the fact that he was interred almost thirty years ago. As for why we should be troubled by their questionable beliefs and practices that’s simple. They proselytize. The Rabbi of the YI in my community is Chabad. I attended that shul about twenty years ago. This Rabbi constantly mocked non-Chabad Rabbis including the Chafetz Chaim, Vilna Gaon, and Rav Aharon Kotler. I will quote that Rabbi, “The Rebbe is the reason the world was created.” Now I know that Nomesorah will posit that he’s a lone wolf, but that’s nonsense. Rabbi Butman clearly articulated the belief in some, but not all Chabad circles, “When the Besht arrived, Gemara-based Judaism became null and void, and when the Baal Hatanya arrived all other Chassidim became irrelevant. Houston we have a problem no we have two problems. The second is that someone like you who’s clearly bright can’t or doesn’t want to accept the obvious truth. It seems that you’re simply a contrarian.

Avira, None of the shochtim at Rubashkin’s were problematic?

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Dear Ujm,

The RY who told me the whole story is long gone. I don’t see any point in publicizing politics from long before I was born. Maybe I would give one example.

Dear Qwerty,

You are aware of the different outcome of Chassidus for Lubavitch. But you are not getting into what makes it so. For all you know, The Rebbe Is Moshiach is the authentic outcome of Chabad.

1) Everybody today is careful about ‘My Leader Is Moshiach’ statements because they don’t want to be compared to Chabad. So that isn’t evidence. There are yeshiva bochurim that are just as enchanted with their Rosh Yeshiva as a Meshichist.

2) Paranormal stories that lend credence to tzaddikim being neviim are in abundance. I have not heard Chabadtzkers saying the Rebbe was a prophet as a general statement.

3) Other Chassidim have claimed their Rebbe to be among the living dead. Lubavitch is the only large group to make such a claim. Please realize that they are the only large group to stay intact for thirty years without a rebbe. The question is what do they mean by this statement and is it rooted in Chassidus.

4) We are not bothered by what they do on the street. It’s benign. Chabad is not a threat to missionize anyone of us to Chabad as long as the subject knows anything. A lot (Not all.) of the anti Chabad is missing out on the basics. So I’m fine with it. Let Chabad open their eyes a bit.

5) That Rabbi is not a lone wolf. Degenerating other gedolim is a big issue which not all of Chabad is personally aware of. And too many of them deny it. But it is just as bad in other groups. Sometimes even worse.

6) So what if Chabad believes they are exclusive? That put’s them with Brisk (Each version separately.) Half of Ponovezh, Segments of Breslov, and several small cult like groups.

7) If you want to say we disagree on certain major points with Chabad, that is true. But it is even worse with some other groups. And disagreement is not automatically heresy. There is no schism between Chabad and the rest of Klal Yisroel.

qwerty: You don’t have any rabbis of higher caliber than Dr. Berger? (Which is presumably why he’s the one you’re citing.)

To Seichel83

Dr. Berger wrote in his book that eight prominent Chabad Rabbis averred that the Rebbe was “G-d clothed in human form.” A few years ago, David Lichtenstein, a Chabad lover, interviewed Dr. Berger on his radio show. Lichtenstein didn’t challenge Dr. Berger’s contention, rather he said that you can’t judge the entire movement because of a few nut job Rabbis. I don’t know what percentage of Chabad believes this insanity but don’t try denying that it doesn’t exist. By the way Edited

To ujm
You’re obsessed with collecting names of Rabbis who criticized Chabad. Well, n0mesorah already gave you Menashe Klein and Rabbi Belsky. I’ll add Rav Aharon Feldman if it makes you happy.

To n0mesorah

Since Lubavichers never answer any of my questions maybe you’d like to take a stab at this one, “How could the Rebbe contradict an explicit statement in the Gemara, to wit, only one out of 300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach?” According to the Rebbe all Jews, including Bernie Sanders, Woody Allen and the like will be redeemed.

Menachem…, nobody went crazy? The Gra put the Chassidim into cheirem. Some of the things that you brought down are, basically, Christianity.

Dear Menachem,

It depends what going crazy means. I have heard of those who had complaints about the first sichah and were opposed to the messianism as early as the Fifties. I can’t even talk about 1989 because I wasn’t born yet. The vehemence against Chabad has gone down the last decade in my circles. It does seem to me that very few non Lubavitchers ‘go crazy’ about what the Rebbe or random Lubavitchers say. If you go through the archives of this site, you will see that there aren’t that many Chabad haters. It’s it only a couple of posters per thread. There are more posters that just want an easy explanation for some of the Rebbe’s statements. These aren’t easy statements to clarify and they are not interested in all the Chassidus that is needed to understand these concepts in their proper context. So, it is good fodder for a bunch of long and pointless threads. The real life haters that I know, mostly are not interested in learning anything ever. They just want to reaffirm their stances even though they don’t know the foundational concepts of their own hashkafa.

(As you may have noticed I haven’t been around for a while. I used to be simply RSo but I lost all the login info so I had to make a new username etc.)

Menachem wrote: “Again, this has nothing to do with ch”v davening to the Rebbe in shmone esrei, or the other nonsense which does not exist, as I wrote countless times.”

You are very wrong. In that sicha the whole point that the Lubavicher rebbe was making was that there is nothing wrong with davening to a tzaddik because he is atzmus melubash baguf.

Dear Arso,

You missed the difference. If you understand all the parts of ” there is nothing wrong with davening to a tzaddik because he is atzmus melubash baguf” than you know that it is not at an out of bounds idea.

First off, I must protest citing Rabbi Dr. Berger as only Dr, leaving off the fact that he is a Rabbi. He does have semicha, and should be recognized as such.
Joseph, I really don’t care whether you believe me or not, and I don’t care if you think my refusal to name the Rav means he’s not legitimate. I can assure you that he’s a widely respected, yeshivish Rav in Brooklyn. I just don’t want to put his name here, because I’ve never heard him say it publicly, other than when I heard him say it in Yeshiva.
I know that he told us he heard the same thing from a major Rav – I seem to remember that it was either R’ Belsky or R’ Reisman. Given Avira’s knowledge of R’ Belsky’s views, I would assume it was R’ Reisman. It was 20+ years ago, so I may be mistaken about that part.
I will say that yes, there was a time when I wouldn’t count a meshichist towards a minyan. I don’t automatically assume that every Chabadnik is a meshichist, but this person happens to have a sign on the front of his house, with a picture of the Rebbe, and the words “Moreinu melech hamashiach chai v’kayam!” We had 9 people waiting for a 10th and he walked in. I claimed I needed the bathroom before we could start and walked out. Another person walked in a minute later, so I walked back in and we started davening.

Joseph, you claimed that R’ Shach did not hold of the position. R’ Shach said that the Rebbe’s statement about a Rebbe being God clothed in a human body was Avodah Zara. He compared Chabad chassidim to followers of Shabtai Zvi. He called the Rebbe “the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy”.
His students won’t eat Lubavitch shechitah, claiming that they’re not frum Jews.
Do you really want to claim that R’ Shach didn’t hold of the views?

@qwerty613. someone asked a simililar question to the rebbe, the answer is printed in אגרות קודש חלק א אגרת פה, its a long answer with many sources, fascinating answer.

seforim which say that a neshama is a חלק אלקה ממעל
חדושי אגדות מהרש”א (שבת לב, א חלק אלקה בלי תיבת ממעל) פני יהושע ב”מ נח ב, מלבי”ם ישעי’ נ, א (ובכמה מקומות בספרו) העמק דבר ואתחנן ז, י ובכמה מקומות בספרו. ועוד
רמ”ק בספר הפרדס ריש שער לב, ראשית חכמה שער האהבה פ”א ופ”ב ובכ”מ שם. האריז”ל בשער רוח הקודש דף ל”ט ע”א בהוצאת ירושלים – צויין בהערות על תניא ולקוטי תורה פ’ בראשית. שפע טל (למקובל ר’ שבתי שעפטל הורוויץ, תלמיד הרמ”ק) בהקדמה ובארוכה בספרו נשמת שבתי הלוי (שער ד ואילך). של”ה בבית חכמה בסופו (ובכ”מ בספרו) יושר לבב (לבעל משנת חסידים) בית א חדר ד פ”ב. יערות דבש ח”א דרוש א. אור החיים ר”פ בראשית ועוד
it that enough sources? so whoever has an issue with the sicha, 1) they will need to answer all these sources 2) they will need to answer tanya perek 2 (which i understand today, no one has an isse with the baal hatanya, and as time goes on the same will be with the rebbe. (even today almost no one has issues with the rebbe (alot of litvaks say that r shach went against chabad mainly for saying the rebbe is moshiach cuz he weas worried that if it dosent happen, chabad will go off the derech, well now were almost 30 yrs later))).

Avira,

In the last few posts I’m only discussing the Moshiach issue, nothing else. And I can certainly buy that the meshichists are meshugoim, even though that belief doesn’t make them an apikorus.

Now regarding Rav Menashe Klein zt’l, you can read his teshuva that you’re referring to in Mishne Halachos 17. He calls for the Yechi Melech Hamoshiach to stop, and he spends two pages calling on Lubavitchers to appoint a new rebbe. He does attack the idea that the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be Moshiach, but he doesn’t call it apikorsus. What he calls apikorsus is the Bizuy Talmid Chochom that he thinks the radical meshichists cause, when they insist on rubbing their mishugas in everyone’s faces. They turn the Rebbe into a joke, and that is what Rav Klein says is their apikorsus, by being mevaze the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

It is also noteworthy to mention that a few years after the Lubavitcher Rebbe passed away Rav Menashe Klein publicly said that the meshichists are not apikorsim, and that it is not forbidden to have the belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is still Moshiach.

Regarding the supposed “contradiction” from Sanhedrin 111a. –

The hekesh is from the Redemption of Mitzrayim- when all those Yidden (other than the 2 out of 600,000) died, and specifically during the plague of Darkness so that no one would have to witness this.
IOW, it is not that ch”v any Yidden were denied the ability to leave Egypt during the actual redemption, and had to stay back…all the Yidden who were alive at that time indeed left (and there is even a [midrash?] telling of how dasan and aviram stayed back for the parting of the sea, and Hashem split it open once again JUST for these two (reshayim though they were). – it’s a separate question how it is that they left Egypt, if indeed they were the reshayim that we know them to have been…

So too, as per the hekesh, we can conclude that all those Yidden who are not part of the 2/600,000 who will be alive for the redemption, will indeed be redeemed, whereas the rest will have to die some other way, presumably in a fashion unnoticed by the general public (as per the original redemption from Egypt)

Sorry for the third post – I tried looking up the said Iggeres and found it here:
https://chabadlibrary. org/books/admur/ig/1/85.htm

I don’t have time to read through it in depth, but a cursory browsing shows that there are MANY MORE sources which can be brought up as questions to the Rebbe’s claim, and the Rebbe goes through all the available sources in this letter to back up the claim that indeed all Yisroel will be redeemed, including reshoim… If you have the time it’s worth a look, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on the letter if/after you have done so.

To CR

I’ve sent a number of submissions in the last two days but they haven’t been posted. Instead, you’ve only posted from Lubavichers. Seems unfair. Especially since I’m responding to challenges.

Posta have been both deleted and approved from “both sides of the aisle”. Nasty personal attacks and overall mean-spirited personal comments are deleted. This is just a partial list of suggestions.